Tim Walz Signed Bill Making Minnesota a Sanctuary State for Child Sex-Changes

[BCP1928]

I have no idea what you are talking about. What corner?

He has asked over and over again for a specific example to prove it's happening. Going full well that it's a violation of Federal law to obtain and share information. Why on earth would you ask for something you know want be legally provided?

You guys on the left keep claiming it's not happening. When evidence is provided it is, then you demand specific information in order to further prove it is. Knowing full well it's a violation of Federal law.

What a joke. There are already studies being done, journal articles written. You, yourself have provided us with information about what's going on in Europe--just to prove that what we're doing here is wrong, of course, but finding out what is actually going on here is somehow impossible for you. I don't know why

Yes people do think that if you didn't you wouldn't be asking for evidence of it.

I think you were asking for numbers too. Do you think it's happening?

Yes, but how much and under what circumstances? I would also like to know why trained medical professionals who know a lot more about the subject than I do think it is necessary in some cases.

 

[civilwarbuff]

So you understand hypotheticals, mine just doesn’t fit your agenda.

So, if medical records are confidential info how can anyone give you a specific/individual example (unless it is personal telling)?.....of course if the gov required hospitals accepting Medicare/Medicaid to report blinded info (at the gov request(read demand) to some gov agency who could then collate that info into say a spreadsheet so that it could be evaluated to measure if appropriate medical treatments were being administered, associated costs, length of stay, sex/age/race/other data and then made available to interested parties. But I am just theorizing here, right? I mean no one is smart enough to do that, correct?

 

[civilwarbuff]

When this issue first came to light in this forum, it was tens of thousands and the operation was being performed by elementary school teachers without parental knowledge.

I would really like to know who made that claim.

 

[rjs330]

When this issue first came to light in this forum, it was tens of thousands and the operation was being performed by elementary school teachers without parental knowledge.

Lol, I'd sure like some evidence of that. And you know what, I won't even ask for protected information.

At least we have managed to goad you here into putting up some real numbers,

Yes there are real numbers. You didn't goad anyone. They were always there and I've provided them to everyone who has asked. Imagine that. But for some apparently real numbers are not enough. Now people want specific examples of protected information on juveniles of all things.

even about individual cases to be looked at all without violating HIPAA.

You know this? You know of individual juvenile cases that can be looked at? You are absolutely 100% sure there are individual juvenile cases on the internet that can be found? If you are so sure then you don't need us to find one for you.

As to whether these surgeries are necessary or not, you just say they are unnecessary and that is the end of your argument. But in order to make that credible, you should at least understand the reasons why trained medical professionals think they are necessary, but you don't and don't even want to.

You have no idea if these surgeries are necessary or not. Give us a single case where it was necessary to give a juvenile female a gender mastectomy.

The systematic reviews of the research on this subject have proven its not necessary. Can you give a single case where it was? What were the reasons for it. You claim there some that we have to understand. What are they?

am not in favor of trans surgeries for minors either,

Why not

I don't want to see laws against it passed by conservatives ignorant of what is actually happening

Actually the conservatives seem to be far better informed on the subject than non -conservatives who wish to keep it legal.

laws against abortion are written that way, you wind up with pregnant women being inadvertently required to carry a dead fetus to term. The medically ignorant conservative politicians who try to pass laws like that have no clue.

And Walz is for abortions up until birth. But we shouldn't have any laws against that right?

And no woman was required by law to carry a dead fetus to term. There is no law written that requires that.

 

[BPPLEE]

It's a challenge. The Right is complaining about all the little boys who are having their penises cut off and how that is unnecessary, but they need to support those statements.
It would be helpful to know roughly how many and what operation they have had. When this issue first came to light in this forum, it was tens of thousands and the operation was being performed by elementary school teachers without parental knowledge. They seemed to have backed away from that kind of exaggeration, but they still don't seem to know very much about what is actually happening. At least we have managed to goad you here into putting up some real numbers, approximate as they are. No need to violate HIPAA at all. And since this is a medical science field, there will be journal articles about the procedures and even about individual cases to be looked at all without violating HIPAA.
As to whether these surgeries are necessary or not, you just say they are unnecessary and that is the end of your argument. But in order to make that credible, you should at least understand the reasons why trained medical professionals think they are necessary, but you don't and don't even want to.

The point in asking for an example is to see if there are conservatives who are willing to argue against trans surgeries for minors by informing themselves about what is actually happening rather than relying on imaginary lurid stories. I am not in favor of trans surgeries for minors either, but I don't want to see laws against it passed by conservatives ignorant of what is actually happening. The devil is in the details, and we see what happens when laws against abortion are written that way, you wind up with pregnant women being inadvertently required to carry a dead fetus to term. The medically ignorant conservative politicians who try to pass laws like that have no clue.

Wrong person. I said opinions vary about what is necessary. I didn't make any claims about the number of surgeries being performed.
I posted a link to an article and asked a question.
Save your sermons for someone else

 

[BCP1928]

I would really like to know who made that claim.

I don't remember, but there were some pretty hysterical claims made. One still sees quite a bit of it, about "trans agenda" and "grooming." It's not a good look. rjs has done some work in digging up real information, but he is mostly interested, as I understand it, in showing that the American version of gender affirming care is wrong, compared to European countries, not that it should be eliminated entirely. I am opposed to gender reassignment surgery for minors, but I am concerned that any law passed against it should be based on real medical facts, not some ideological position.

 

[rjs330]

This is a pretty weak argument. First, you can give specific examples without providing information that will identify the patient, such as the story that came out about a Boston hospital that allegedly provided breast removal surgery on a minor. But more to the point, specific stories don't really provide evidence. At best, it is one case, when we are being told these are happening daily.

There is no law against the statistics, it doesn't violate HIPPA or privacy rights of children. I think most here are just looking for the raw data, how many children had some type of "gender change" operation last year. If it is happening as frequently as you claim, it seems it should be easy to get some data about how often, and where -- statistics that don't violate any federal laws.

Instead what we get are these unconfirmed stories that can't be verified and don't actually show why the issue requires all the attention being given.

We've provided the statistics, not unconfirmed stories. Are you denying it is occurring? I've provided the statistics myself in this very thread, not an unconfirmed story.

Are you denying it's occurring?

 

[BCP1928]

We've provided the statistics, not unconfirmed stories. Are you denying it is occurring? I've provided the statistics myself in this very thread, not an unconfirmed story.

Are you denying it's occurring?

That what is occurring? That somewhere, someplace, some minors are having gender reassignment surgery? Of course it's happening.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Yes. Why link to something you say is bad when it says it's not? Where is an example where it has been shown to be bad? With all these surgeries, where is the one example you can give me of a minor having it so we can discuss it?

‘I literally lost organs:’ Why detransitioned teens regret changing genders

A look at the alarming rise of teens who are changing genders and then “detransitioning” back.

nypost.com

 

[civilwarbuff]

Yes. Why link to something you say is bad when it says it's not? Where is an example where it has been shown to be bad? With all these surgeries, where is the one example you can give me of a minor having it so we can discuss it?

Would you like some tenderizer with those words?......make them a little easier to chew and swallow?

 

[civilwarbuff]

I don't remember, but there were some pretty hysterical claims made.

That happens on both sides of the fence. You need to learn how to wade thru the trash to get to the treasure.

 

[Bradskii]

‘I literally lost organs:’ Why detransitioned teens regret changing genders

A look at the alarming rise of teens who are changing genders and then “detransitioning” back.

nypost.com

At last - we have one.

First up, I want to point out that the conversation started off with this comment: 'Gender reassignment surgery is very rarely if ever going to be appropriate for little kids.' Post 38

And was discussing genital surgery: 'When you chop off a boys penis, what else would you call it?' Post 62

Emphasised by: 'Change “cutting penis off” with “being sexually active at 9” and see if that still works.' Post 92

And my comment: 'if someone did find an example and I thought that there were problems with it I'd say so. These things must be considered on an individual basis.' Post 232

So this example is not talking about genital surgery for young children. The example was for a mastectomy on a girl who was 15 at the time. She had been discussing this with her parents, and obviously her doctor, for two years. And she was adamant that she wanted to transition. Parental consent was given and a medical decision made that it would be in her best interests.

From here: Olson-Kennedy-2018.pdf

'Transmasculine youth, who are assigned female at birth but have a gender identity along the masculine spectrum, often report considerable distress after breast development (chest dysphoria).

Chest dysphoria was high among presurgical transmasculine youth, and surgical intervention positively affected both minors and young adults. Given these findings, professional guidelines and clinical practice should consider patients for chest surgery based on individual need rather than chronologic age.

Self-reported regret was near 0.'

I am absolutely certain that genital surgery would not have been an option at that age and that the mastectomy that she had was done in her best interests.

From here: High levels of satisfaction, and low levels of regret, after gender affirming mastectomy

'Gender-affirming mastectomies for transmasculine and nonbinary individuals can be life changing. Recent research from the University of Michigan finds that in addition to changing lives, most patients are highly satisfied with their decision to undergo surgery longterm.

The study published in JAMA Surgery aimed to determine how patients who received a gender affirming mastectomy at a single major health system felt about their decision years afterward.

The research showed an overwhelmingly positive response – the median satisfaction score was a 5 on a 5-point scale, the highest possible rating. The median decision regret score was 0.0 on a 100-point scale where lower scores mean less regret.

In another indirect measure of satisfaction, none of the patients in the study pursued a reversal of their mastectomy.'

The obvious conclusion is that her operation was done with the best interests of the girl being considered. That she changed her mind later was an extremely rare occurrence.

 

[BPPLEE]

At last - we have one.

First up, I want to point out that the conversation started off with this comment: 'Gender reassignment surgery is very rarely if ever going to be appropriate for little kids.' Post 38

And was discussing genital surgery: 'When you chop off a boys penis, what else would you call it?' Post 62

Emphasised by: 'Change “cutting penis off” with “being sexually active at 9” and see if that still works.' Post 92

And my comment: 'if someone did find an example and I thought that there were problems with it I'd say so. These things must be considered on an individual basis.' Post 232

So this example is not talking about genital surgery for young children. The example was for a mastectomy on a girl who was 15 at the time. She had been discussing this with her parents, and obviously her doctor, for two years. And she was adamant that she wanted to transition. Parental consent was given and a medical decision made that it would be in her best interests.

From here: Olson-Kennedy-2018.pdf

'Transmasculine youth, who are assigned female at birth but have a gender identity along the masculine spectrum, often report considerable distress after breast development (chest dysphoria).

Chest dysphoria was high among presurgical transmasculine youth, and surgical intervention positively affected both minors and young adults. Given these findings, professional guidelines and clinical practice should consider patients for chest surgery based on individual need rather than chronologic age.

Self-reported regret was near 0.'

I am absolutely certain that genital surgery would not have been an option at that age and that the mastectomy that she had was done in her best interests.

From here: High levels of satisfaction, and low levels of regret, after gender affirming mastectomy

'Gender-affirming mastectomies for transmasculine and nonbinary individuals can be life changing. Recent research from the University of Michigan finds that in addition to changing lives, most patients are highly satisfied with their decision to undergo surgery longterm.

The study published in JAMA Surgery aimed to determine how patients who received a gender affirming mastectomy at a single major health system felt about their decision years afterward.

The research showed an overwhelmingly positive response – the median satisfaction score was a 5 on a 5-point scale, the highest possible rating. The median decision regret score was 0.0 on a 100-point scale where lower scores mean less regret.

In another indirect measure of satisfaction, none of the patients in the study pursued a reversal of their mastectomy.'

The obvious conclusion is that her operation was done with the best interests of the girl being considered. That she changed her mind later was an extremely rare occurrence.

So this is a medical condition that sometimes requires surgery?

 

[Bradskii]

So this is a medical condition that sometimes requires surgery?

Why ask if it's a medical condition? It's not like she had breast cancer. But the linked articles explain why they are sometimes done. And those articles (and the one to which you linked) stated most definitely that the outcomes were positive.

 

[BPPLEE]

Why ask if it's a medical condition? It's not like she had breast cancer. But the linked articles explain why they are sometimes done. And those articles (and the one to which you linked) stated most definitely that the outcomes were positive.

If it requires counseling, medication and sometimes surgery it must be a medical condition or a mental disorder. Which is it?

 

[Hammster]

If it requires counseling, medication and sometimes surgery it must be a medical condition or a mental disorder. Which is it?

We will never convince the pagans of sin, let alone the sinfulness of sin.

 

[Bradskii]

If it requires counseling, medication and sometimes surgery it must be a medical condition or a mental disorder. Which is it?

Gender incongruence is neither. But clinical dysphoria can result in significant psychological distress which can lead to a mental disorder.

See your local psychiatrist for further information.

 

[BPPLEE]

Gender incongruence is neither. But clinical dysphoria can result in significant psychological distress which can lead to a mental disorder.

See your local psychiatrist for further information.

Then it's something that parents should be notified of by school officials if a minor child has this condition, because it can lead to a mental disorder.

 

[BCP1928]

Then it's something that parents should be notified of by school officials if a minor child has this condition, because it can lead to a mental disorder.

That would not be advisable in all cases without helping the child with some counseling first.

 

[Bradskii]

Then it's something that parents should be notified of by school officials if a minor child has this condition, because it can lead to a mental disorder.

If they are suffering severe distress and may harm themselves because of that...then most definitely yes. If they discuss, in confidence, that they are experiencing confusion about their gender, then no. Although their teacher should encourage them to share their feelings with their parents.