SALVATION

[Clare73]

Being you are not opposed to Reformed Faith will post what many Reformed Christians refer to as the "Golden Chain" order of Salvation that is based on Paul's order ...
Romans 8:28-30 is described as the “golden chain” of salvation because Paul not only speaks of an unbreakable order to the plan by which God saves us (the chain), but the
apostle is clear that our salvation from beginning to end is the work of a gracious and sovereign God, who having begun the process of our salvation, sees it through the end (glorification).

Paul lays out a similar “order” of salvation in 1 Corinthians 6:11, when the apostle writes, “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” Although some of the particular elements appear in a different order than in Romans 8:30, the general idea is the same.

All the verbs (in Greek aorist tense) used here by Paul indicate that each of these elements is already a completed act. And just as in Romans 8:30, God accomplishes these things for us. His saving work on our behalf is already finished. All those in Christ are washed, are sanctified, are justified.


The term “Reformed,” spans more centuries than Calvin's time, encompassing other great theologians besides Calvin. Calvinism may be considered a subset of the Reformed tradition.

... the so called "Golden Chain" to a glorified body ...
​

Romans 8:30​

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

What happened to salvation (Eph 2:8-9 )and sanctification (1 Co 6:11)?

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB)​

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.[/indent]​

What happened to salvation (Eph 2:8-9) and glorification (Ro 8:30)?

In light of the whole NT (see post #193, Ro 5:15-16), those statements are meant to be neither sequences nor totalities.

 

[fhansen]

I'd suggest that the claims are generally dishonest. Why?

There's a very slippery slope involved with trying to live a sinless life. Anyone undertaking such a quest should quickly find out that it's basically impossible OR they simply turn into blinded hypocrites.

Paul actually took an opposite track. The same track that the sinner in Luke 18 came to, that he very much needed the Mercy of God, because he was in fact a sinner, compared to the hypocrite that was not "like other men."

Paul directly refutes the religious hypocrite claims in such scriptures as Romans 3:9 where he states that "we are no better" because all are under sin, or even moreso for himself when he claimed to be the present tense "of sinners of whom I AM chief." 1 Tim. 1:15 Not was. Not used to be. "I am."

At least Paul was honest. And that is exactly a reward from heaven, a fruit of the spirit: Honesty

We do not want sin to be our master, for sure. But saying we're not sinners, that we don't have sin or that we're better than other sinners is simply lying hypocrisy and in those cases there is no dominion. Sin actually deceived such and won dominion over them. So much so that even the common unsaved person can see this lying hypocrisy from miles away, and with their own common sense intact, tend to not want to play that game

The problem is that another slippery slope arises on the other side, when we say that sin doesn't matter now. So which is it? We don't want sin to be our master, or sin must not be our master?
"Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:15-18, 20-22

We cannot overcome sin unless we first acknowledge ourselves to be sinners. And the only possible way to overcome sin is the right way, by being reconciled and entering communion with God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing' (John 15:5) We must at least be on that path, His way, to righteousness.
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

Romans, as elsewhere, speaks of more than a declared righteousness, but a real righteousness given. And so while he can sometimes seem hard to pin down, I can appreciate Luther's words from around 1542:

“For promises are not given for the purpose of snoring, loafing, and sleeping, or for doing what is in conflict with the promise. No, they are given for working, being watchful, and bearing fruit. Thus I am not baptized, do not partake of the Lord’s Supper, and am not absolved for the purpose of sleeping and snoring at home in idleness. But if you have the promise, Baptism, and absolution, remember that you have been called to be watchful and to be anxiously concerned about the things that pertain to your faith and calling. ‘How can we who died to sin still live in it?’ says St. Paul (Rom 6:2). We are not absolved from sins in order that we may live for them and serve them, but in order that we may fight against them and stoutly persevere in the promise, in order that I may chastise and mortify my flesh and bear it with a calm mind when God imposes a cross, in order that we may be purged and bring forth richer fruit. ‘By this,’ says Christ, ‘My heavenly Father is glorified, if you become my disciples,’ (cf. John 15:8); that is, if you suffer as I did, and if you become like Me. For he who is not a ‘Crosstian.’ so to speak, is not a Christian; for he is not like Christ, his Teacher.”

And a couple years earlier:
“For there is no such Christ that died for sinners who do not, after the forgiveness of sins, desist from sins and lead a new life.”

 

[Clare73]

The problem is that another slippery slope arises on the other side, when we say that sin doesn't matter now. So which is it? We don't want sin to be our master, or sin must not be our master?

"Sin doesn't matter now" can be understood in two ways:

1) I am free to sin like the devil, and still be a son of God.
2) Sin cannot destroy the redeemed in Jesus Christ.

1) is a lie, nowhere presented in Scripture. Those who sin like the devil have counterfeit faith, and are not saved, despite what they may think.
2) Sin does not destroy the redeemed in Christ, because
a) all their sin is forgiven by their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin,
b) the changed heart given them by the Holy Spirit seeks to die to sin as Christ died for sin (Ro 6:1-4),
c) when they confess their sin, God is faithful and just to forgive their sin and purify them of all unrighteousness (1 Jn 1:8-10).

 

[fhansen]

"Sin doesn't matter now" can be understood in two ways:

1) I am free to sin like the devil, and still be a son of God.
2) Sin cannot destroy the redeemed in Jesus Christ.

1) is a lie, nowhere presented in Scripture. Those who sin like the devil have counterfeit faith, and are not saved, despite what they may think.
2) Sin does not destroy the redeemed in Christ, because
a) all their sin is forgiven by their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin,
b) the changed heart given them by the Holy Spirit seeks to die to sin as Christ died for sin (Ro 6:1-4),
c) when they confess their sin, God is faithful and just to forgive their sin and purify them of all unrighteousness (1 Jn 1:8-10).

Yes, 1) is a lie. It was already addressed in some places in the NT, in fact, because antinomianism was apparently rearing it's head early on.
2) Of course it can. God cannot be mocked. Man is responsible for remaining in Him, continuing to walk by Spirit. You're error is in believing that redemption happens first, and all at once and forever done for the elect, without even knowing for certain who they are, I might add.

The correct order of salvation is:
1) Embracing the gift of faith=fellowship with/sonship of God=forgiveness/justice/righteousness as new hearts and new spirits are given
2) Continuing to value and nurture that relationship as we walk by the Spirit, remaining in Him, by which sin is overcome and good/righteousness is done. As with any relationship, our relationship with God can be ignored, remain uncultivated, unappreciated, mocked, trampled upon as we return to the flesh, giving in to sin and the false gods and values of this world.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

when we say that sin doesn't matter now. So which is it?

Obviously erring to honesty would be the preferred approach

There is an extremely mistaken notion that if a sin "action" does not occur, then it's merely sin "in mind" which is not as bad. Fact is however, here, from Jesus:

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

It's not optional, the evil from within. And it's unlikely that the evil present within any of us ever obeys or believes, for that matter.

Who wants to show up honest before our Maker? Apparently not too many. Better to pretend it isn't so

 

[fhansen]

Obviously erring to honesty would be the preferred approach

There is an extremely mistaken notion that if a sin "action" does not occur, then it's merely sin "in mind" which is not as bad. Fact is however, here, from Jesus:

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

It's not optional, the evil from within. And it's unlikely that the evil present within any of us ever obeys or believes, for that matter.

Who wants to show up honest before our Maker? Apparently not too many. Better to pretend it isn't so

Oh, it's very much optional-and man was never created to sin BTW. Jesus simply ups the standard, further revealing the truth behind our sinful motivations. And our righteousness can easily begin to surpass that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law (Matt 5:20) to the extent that we draw near to Him instead of relying on ourselves and our own "righteousness" as the Pharisees did. Human self-righteousness is the problem after all, not the answer.

The church dealt with all of this centuries ago, originally believing that any return to serious sin: murder, adultery, etc, automatically excluded a believer from eternal life and from the church, with no repentance possible and with a handful of Scriptural passages supporting this view. They had turned from their sins and the polluting ways of the world and to God, giving up much to so do including their lives quite frequently. An early bishop, based on an understanding of God's infinite mercy and love and desire that no one should perish taught, amidst much controversy and hostility throughout the Christian world, that any sin could be forgiven with a true change of heart and repentance, albeit the penance was quite severe and lengthy at that time. Ultimately the whole Christian world would come to accept this teaching and practice. But one thing they never did was to view faith and the new covenant as some sort of carte blanc reprieve from the penalty of all future sin but rather as the authentic means to overcoming it, and therefore its condemnation to death.

And the church hasn't taught the need for absolute sinless perfection in this life, only that some sins are so egregious by their nature that they constitute "sin that leads to death". While all sin opposes God's will and tend towards separation from Him, there are sins that so directly, overtly, oppose love of God and neighbor while destroying love in us that, if persisted in, will cause eternal separation from Him, i.e. death.

That's an honest look at sin.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:9-10

And that love, a gift of grace itself, is the true mark of a believer-and love opposes and excludes sin while fostering obedience by its nature. That's the path we must be on-or return to if we stray. That's God's Way. It's a journey-not without struggle-and an incomparably good one-a journey to a purpose and a perfection that God has in mind for each of us.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, 1) is a lie. It was already addressed in some places in the NT, in fact, because antinomianism was apparently rearing it's head early on.
2) Of course it can.

That sin can destroy the redeemed in Christ isin disagreement with the word of God in Ro 8:23, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13-14, where rebirth of the Holy Spirit and his indwelling is a deposit guaranteeing one's inheritance in Jesus Christ, which deposit likewise enables one to die to sin as Christ died for sin (Ro 6:1-4).

 

[fhansen]

You are in disagreement with the word of God in Ro 8:23, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13-14, where rebirth of the Holy Spirit and his indwelling is a deposit guaranteeing one's inheritance in Jesus Christ, which deposit likewise enables one to die to sin as Christ died for sin (Ro 6:1-4).

It depends on who the "one" is-until we know that it's hypothetical for any specific individual. And I doubt that even the original audience of that letter were all, necessarily, among the elect.

For us, based on what we truly know, we must strive, make effort, we must be vigilant, we must persevere as we remain in Christ, walking by the Spirit, cooperating with grace.

 

[Clare73]

It depends on who the "one" is-until we know that it's hypothetical for any specific individual. And I doubt that even the original audience of that letter were all, necessarily, among the elect.

None of which alters the Biblical fact of Ro 8:23, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13-14, where rebirth of the Holy Spirit and his indwelling is a deposit guaranteeing one's inheritance in Jesus Christ, which deposit likewise enables one to die to sin as Christ died for sin (Ro 6:1-4).

 

[fhansen]

None of which alters the Biblical fact of Ro 8:23, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13-14, where rebirth of the Holy Spirit and his indwelling is a deposit guaranteeing one's inheritance in Jesus Christ, which deposit likewise enables one to die to sin as Christ died for sin (Ro 6:1-4).

Were enabled, all right-and we must participate with that enablement, that grace, as we work out our salvation with He who works in us. Here's a wise teaching I'm familiar with, consistent with Scripture, the early church, and early fathers:

"The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity."

Another edifying read, the Didache:

CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

 

[fhansen]

None of which alters the Biblical fact of Ro 8:23, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13-14, where rebirth of the Holy Spirit and his indwelling is a deposit guaranteeing one's inheritance in Jesus Christ, which deposit likewise enables one to die to sin as Christ died for sin (Ro 6:1-4).

I often speak the same way when explaining the faith; its about the ideal. Encouragement, hyperbole, not to be taken in some wooden, rote understanding.. Until we meet God-and He tells us- we won't know our eternal destinies with 100% certainty. Our fruit is the best evidence of our standing before God and our relationship with Him: love and the good it produces: obedience, overcoming sin, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, counseling the doubtful, empathizing with and comforting the sorrowful, etc.

 

[Clare73]

Were enabled, all right-and we must participate with that enablement, that grace, as we work out our salvation with He who works in us.

We show forth what the Holy Spirit has worked in us through obedience in him (Ro 6:16, 19).

Here's a wise teaching I'm familiar with, consistent with Scripture, the early church, and early fathers:

"The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity."

Another edifying read, the Didache:

CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

I do not see man as achieving his own inner integrity.

I see him, with the enablement of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as dying to sin and living to God (Ro 6:1-4), as working out through obedient faith what the Holy Spirit is working within. (Php 2:13).

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Oh, it's very much optional-and man was never created to sin BTW

And that is quite entirely mistaken.

The natural man was never meant to survive, and it's sin that kills us all. 1 Cor. 15:42-46, Romans 8:10

And yes, God definitely made us that way:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

As stated prior, the biggest gap in understanding subjects of sin and salvation is the missing component.

Very few consider that we are not alone between our own 2 ears. But we all bear temptations of the tempter, internally, in our minds.

So these questions with answers are simply one sided answers that don't address the other "agent." It's an empty formula and it's also why few agree on the details

 

[fhansen]

I do not see man as achieving his own inner integrity.

I see him, with the enablement of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as dying to sin and living to God (Ro 6:1-4), as working out through obedient faith what the Holy Spirit is working within. (Php 2:13).

Yes, with God all things are possible, but never guaranteed. If God wanted to do it all for us He never would've let man fall in Eden to begin with. Our job is to come to know our need for Him, unlike Adam's choice.

 

[fhansen]

And that is quite entirely mistaken.

The natural man was never meant to survive, and it's sin that kills us all. 1 Cor. 15:42-46, Romans 8:10

And yes, God definitely made us that way:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

As stated prior, the biggest gap in understanding subjects of sin and salvation is the missing component.

Very few consider that we are not alone between our own 2 ears. But we all bear temptations of the tempter, internally, in our minds.

So these questions with answers are simply one sided answers that don't address the other "agent." It's an empty formula and it's also why few agree on the details

God allowed man to fall, and to remain in that state, for His good purposes, until the "fullness of time". As it is God is not the author of sin; He made everything good as the story of creation tells us, because He is good. He's not a fool who made man to sin so that he could be glorified by blaming man for sin and then rescuing him from sin.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

As it is God is not the author of sin

Are you proposing that things like sin and evil created themselves? A multiple creators position?

I cited Romans 11:32 showing that it was God who bound everyone to disobedience.

Start there

 

[fhansen]

Are you proposing that things like sin and evil created themselves? A multiple creators position?

They didn’t have to create themselves. All sin is the result of the abuse of a created good. The gift of free will is one such good. The abuse of it is the cause of all moral evil, aka “sin”. If God had not granted this gift to men and angels then no such evil could ever exist; His will would always be done IOW. If, OTOH, God directly wills and causes every rape, murder, lie, etc that occurs then He’s worse than satan, and definitely not worth following either way.

Evil, BTW, has no existence of its own. It’s the absence or privation or lessening of a created good-as darkness is the absence of light-and always opposed to and outside of the will of God.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, with God all things are possible, but never guaranteed.
If God wanted to do it all for us He never would've let man fall in Eden to begin with.

And you know this, how?

Our job is to come to know our need for Him, unlike Adam's choice.

Actually, our job is to believe in and trust on the (blood, Ro 3:25) atoning work and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin and right standing with God, followed by love of God and obedience in the Holy Spirit of the Christian life.

 

[fhansen]

And you know this, how?

God's not irrational-free will was given for a reason. And it would be nonsensical for God to demand obedience from man at one point, and subsequent points down through history, a history replete with many evils and suffering due to the sin that resulted from disobedience, and then suddenly say, "Never mind-I'll just do it all for you now!"

Instead, we're here for that very reason, to see for ourselves that Adam's disobedience was a shipwreck, that we need more than ourselves, that we need Him and His wisdom and will to be in control after all-we need to allow Him to do it-and He's been patiently working with us to bring us to that point. When we turn to Him in faith we're submitting to Him-and He obviously has never forced that down through the ages. Jesus came in the fulness of time when we might finally be ready, after experiencing the Fall into a world where sin and death prevail as the Master's gone away and the human will reigns supreme. We’ve also experienced the law through the Jews so that we may be convicted of the sin that even the law cannot overcome so that, again, we’ll know our need for something, Something that’s missing.

Here we may develop a hunger and thirst for truth and justice and righteousness and love in a world that so often little values and tramples upon those things. Here we might be all the more ready to open the door when He knocks, to learn that “Apart from Me you can do nothing”. So that we might finally humble ourselves, and, with the help of grace, choose rightly, good over evil, life over death, God over no God-and continue to make that choice and grow stronger in it. There’s reason behind it all.

Actually, our job is to believe in and trust on the (blood, Ro 3:25) atoning work and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin and right standing with God, followed by love of God and obedience in the Holy Spirit of the Christian life.

Our job is to believe in God by knowing Him through the words and deeds of Christ. Learning of our need for Him helps drive us to turn to Him in faith as His grace also draws us.

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

"He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:20-21

Faith in God and the restored relationship intrinsic to that faith is our justification and therefore our salvation.

 

[Clare73]

God's not irrational-

"Rational" being defined by man's finite understanding rather than God's infinite understanding (Isa 55:8-9).

free will was given for a reason.

Jesus denies free will, saying that we are slaves to sin (Jn 8:44). Slaves are not free.

The will does not operate in a vacuum, it is governed by the disposition, what one prefers.
"Free will" is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

Fallen man prefers sin (Jn 8:44).
Without the Holy Spirit (those controlled by the sinful nature)
the mind of sinful man (i.e., set on the flesh) is death (Ro 8:6),
the sinful mind is hostile to God (Ro 8:7),
it cannot and does not submit to God's law (Ro 8:7),
it cannot please God (Ro 8:8),
does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for
they are foolishness to him, and
he cannot understand them (1 Co 2:14).

That being the case, man's fallen will is not "free," the fallen will, apart from the Holy Spirit, has no power to submit to God.(Ro 8:6-8, 1 Co 2:14).

Faith in God and the restored relationship intrinsic to that faith is our justification and therefore our salvation.

The gift (salvation) brought justification (Ro 5:15-16).

Salvation (soterion) = sin forgiven through faith in Jesus Christ thereby saving one from God's wrath (Ro 5:9).
Justification (diakaiosis) = declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of righteous; i.e., forensic righteousness.

Sin must first be forgiven (salvation) before one can be pronounced forensically righteous (justification).

Salvation precedes justification (Ro 5:15-16).