Microsoft Lays Off DEI Team

[AlexB23]

After a saw cuts through the wood completely, one ceases to use the saw.

I like this analogy.

 

[Ana the Ist]

After a saw cuts through the wood completely, one ceases to use the saw.

That's interesting....you think Microsoft achieved it's DEI goals?

 

[Pommer]

That's interesting....you think Microsoft achieved it's DEI goals?

Hence they’re breaking up the DEI-police Compliance Office.
Yay!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Hence they’re breaking up the DEI-police Compliance Office.
Yay!

Or they just decided it was a waste of money.

True systems-change work associated with DEI programs everywhere are no longer business critical or smart as they were in 2020.

I'm not an expert in late stage corpo-speak, but it appears they’re trying to say DEI is unnecessary and dumb in the internal email....while offering up empty platitudes from the PR department.

 

[iluvatar5150]

It would seem that the reports of the death of Microsoft's DEI initiatives have been greatly exaggerated:

Microsoft’s 2024 Global Diversity & Inclusion Report: Our most global, transparent report yet - The Official Microsoft Blog

Today, I am sharing Microsoft’s 2024 Diversity & Inclusion Report, our most global and transparent report to date. This marks our sixth consecutive annual report and the eleventh year sharing our global workforce data, highlighting our progress and areas of opportunity. Our ongoing focus on...

blogs.microsoft.com

 

[rjs330]

It would seem that the reports of the death of Microsoft's DEI initiatives have been greatly exaggerated:

Microsoft’s 2024 Global Diversity & Inclusion Report: Our most global, transparent report yet - The Official Microsoft Blog

Today, I am sharing Microsoft’s 2024 Diversity & Inclusion Report, our most global and transparent report to date. This marks our sixth consecutive annual report and the eleventh year sharing our global workforce data, highlighting our progress and areas of opportunity. Our ongoing focus on...

blogs.microsoft.com

That's too bad. I guess some companies just want to be scammed.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That's interesting....you think Microsoft achieved it's DEI goals?

I think by its very nature, there are no actual "goals" in the realm of DEI... at least not any tangible ones that one could ever say "Okay, we achieved DEI, we can fold the department now"

It would seem that the constant moving goal posts isn't a bug, it's a feature with regards to DEI.

If you look at the progression of the national discourse on pronouns and gender, that's a good indicator of the mindset behind some of these initiatives.

There never a finish line. The more people complied, the more the tossed another brick up on the wall of rules. With each iteration, the number of people willing to comply with it became fewer and fewer.


Over a period of 5-10 years...
"Sometimes people identify as the other gender, so you have to respect that and use their preferred pronouns"
- Okay, if I see the person is trying to identify as the opposite gender, I'll try to use their preferred pronouns
"...ummm achtually... you can't assume gender, so you'll need to ask the person which set of pronouns they prefer"
- Okay, we'll ask which of the two sets of pronouns they prefer
"...as it turns out, there aren't just two genders, there can be many genders, and people can identify as one, multiple (even at the same time) or none of them, so you can't describe gender as a binary, it's offensive"
- Fine, we won't assume gender is binary when asking someone their preferred pronouns, is that it?
"...actually no, you need to educate yourself on that. Saying "preferred pronouns" is offensive, because "preferred" is implying that it's a choice they're making instead of who they really are
- This is getting to be a bit much
"...the reason you feel that way is because of your cis/straight privilege, you need to recognize that privilege and try your best to be an ally, start with memorizing these 25 flags so that you can accurately identify someone who displaying them, that way you won't offend a two-spirit, neuro-divergent demisexual by accidently assuming that they're a masculine-identifying pangender bisexual"
- Okay, this is stupid, I'm not doing this anymore
"FASCIST!!! BIGOT!!!!"


At it's core, these types of things started as advocating for people who'd been historically the targets of unfair discrimination, and within the period of a decade, morphed into this thing that's seemingly just a method for young people to add themselves to the "intersectional cool kids table" and a way for humanities majors to condescendingly boss people around in the name of "progress"

 

[iluvatar5150]

I think by its very nature, there are no actual "goals" in the realm of DEI... at least not any tangible ones that one could ever say "Okay, we achieved DEI, we can fold the department now"

It would seem that the constant moving goal posts isn't a bug, it's a feature with regards to DEI.

That’s the nature of progress in most realms. We didn’t tell all of the scientists to pack up and hit the bread lines because “we figured out science.” Heck, even something with a much clearer, more binary goal like “defeating the nazis” required a bunch of follow up after the goal was achieved.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That’s the nature of progress in most realms. We didn’t tell all of the scientists to pack up and hit the bread lines because “we figured out science.” Heck, even something with a much clearer, more binary goal like “defeating the nazis” required a bunch of follow up after the goal was achieved.

Right, but most scientists (at least not in the hard sciences) aren't constantly making up new "problems" to "work on" in the name of job security and a desire to lord over other people. Typically a problem or question presents itself, and the scientists research it

...and in the hard sciences, most of the experts likely aren't demanding the same types of validation from the general public via using non-experts as their "mouthpiece". In some cases, the DEI "experts" aren't even "discovering" anything, they're just seeking to give a rubber stamp to whatever the college kids are coming up with.

When was the last time you've seen non-expert college-aged kids rally or hold a demonstration in the name of making people acknowledge a new discovery in the study of branch chain amino acids?


The aims between the scenarios are seemingly quite different. In the hard sciences, they want to learn something new. In this particular facet of the humanities, they seemingly just want to have something/anything that they can "know", that other people don't, at all times, so that they can always have a reason to "educate them" (and in some cases, use that "knowledge" as a political instrument)



Take, for instance:
There are dozens of pride flags, some more well-known than others. The Human Rights Campaign, a hub for LGBTQ+ resources, lists 25 pride flags, including intersectionality and progress designs. However, there may be even more than this figure, as artists and activists continue to create new designs that more accurately represent their identities.

This isn't the result of any type of scientific research. Even the HRC acknowledges that activists and artists are coming up with these new flag designs and designations based on what they "feel" represents their identities. Is that how "science stuff" is typically done? People just come up with their own conclusions based on their feelings, and the experts' job is just to validate it on the basis of "yeah, it's just based on how they feel"?

 

[iluvatar5150]

Right, but most scientists (at least not in the hard sciences) aren't constantly making up new "problems" to "work on" in the name of job security and a desire to lord over other people. Typically a problem or question presents itself, and the scientists research it

"Making up new problems" sounds exactly like how the majority of PhD candidates (in the sciences or the humanities) I've known have described their search for a thesis topic. And there certainly are incentives for exploring problems more likely to attract grant funding - that may not constitute "making up new problems", but it's also not exactly following the questions that present themselves.

Take, for instance:
There are dozens of pride flags, some more well-known than others. The Human Rights Campaign, a hub for LGBTQ+ resources, lists 25 pride flags, including intersectionality and progress designs. However, there may be even more than this figure, as artists and activists continue to create new designs that more accurately represent their identities.

This isn't the result of any type of scientific research. Even the HRC acknowledges that activists and artists are coming up with these new flag designs and designations based on what they "feel" represents their identities. Is that how "science stuff" is typically done? People just come up with their own conclusions based on their feelings, and the experts' job is just to validate it on the basis of "yeah, it's just based on how they feel"?

Did your company/industry stop making new stuff after the first successful product launch? Or did they keep releasing new products that were bigger, better, faster, flashier, more profitable, etc? Did we need a new iPhone 16 this year or could we all have lived with the 15 being on sale for another year or two? My industry certainly didn't stop after the Atari 2600. Most don't stop after their first product. Most companies keep working on revisions and new products; sometimes it's to push the boundaries of what's possible; sometimes it's to make more money; sometimes it's just to perpetuate their own existence. DEI teams are no different. Pretending as if they're somehow unlike every other entity in the corporate sphere is silly.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Did your company/industry stop making new stuff after the first successful product launch? Or did they keep releasing new products that were bigger, better, faster, flashier, more profitable, etc? Did we need a new iPhone 16 this year or could we all have lived with the 15 being on sale for another year or two? My industry certainly didn't stop after the Atari 2600. Most don't stop after their first product. Most companies keep working on revisions and new products; sometimes it's to push the boundaries of what's possible; sometimes it's to make more money; sometimes it's just to perpetuate their own existence. DEI teams are no different. Pretending as if they're somehow unlike every other entity in the corporate sphere is silly.

No, but we're not masquerading as a "scientific research backed entity", and we're not trying to use our product offerings as a political bludgeon. There's not any college kids out there in the streets suggesting that people are bigots if they don't buy into our product offerings.

DEI initiatives (in the realm of gender-related topics), are.


And, they mischaracterize the level of scientific validity their premises have.

They're playing that word game, where because a few of the original underlying premises have been demonstrated to be true (historically & scientifically), they're pretending that every potential possible outgrowth of that original premise must also be true by extension and association.

Hence "the science and facts our on our side" talking points we'll often hear.

The fact that scientists have isolated gender dysphoria as a real thing (that involves repeatable clinical presentations and observable characteristics), doesn't validate every aspect of some of the modern activism efforts by extension.

In some ways, it's like "letting the patient self-diagnose and pick their own medicine" on the basis of the similar ailment/diagnosis being a real thing, without ever seeing a doctor.

Like saying:
"Herniated discs are a real thing science has proved that, painkillers have been shown to provide relief for people who have it in controlled settings, so science has validated that approach...therefore since I feel like I have something similar to a herniated disc, you should give me the painkillers...the science is on my side"

 

[iluvatar5150]

And, they mischaracterize the level of scientific validity their premises have.

That may be, but so do marketing departments, HR, executives, and a whole bunch of folks in the consultant class; oh, and law enforcement. Do you think the satisfaction surveys they send out to employees or that they print on the receipts at Walmart and Home Depot actually give real insight into the satisfaction levels of the people being polled? No, because they're all garbage. But some consultant somewhere got paid to suggest it; and some IT firm got paid to implement it; and some store manager has his bonus pegged to the response rate, because it makes the bigwigs feel like they're doing something.

 

[rjs330]

That may be, but so do marketing departments, HR, executives, and a whole bunch of folks in the consultant class; oh, and law enforcement. Do you think the satisfaction surveys they send out to employees or that they print on the receipts at Walmart and Home Depot actually give real insight into the satisfaction levels of the people being polled? No, because they're all garbage. But some consultant somewhere got paid to suggest it; and some IT firm got paid to implement it; and some store manager has his bonus pegged to the response rate, because it makes the bigwigs feel like they're doing something.

Kind of similar to DEI programs.

 

[RDKirk]

After a saw cuts through the wood completely, one ceases to use the saw.

The saw forgets, but the plank remembers.

 

[RDKirk]

That may be, but so do marketing departments, HR, executives, and a whole bunch of folks in the consultant class; oh, and law enforcement. Do you think the satisfaction surveys they send out to employees or that they print on the receipts at Walmart and Home Depot actually give real insight into the satisfaction levels of the people being polled? No, because they're all garbage. But some consultant somewhere got paid to suggest it; and some IT firm got paid to implement it; and some store manager has his bonus pegged to the response rate, because it makes the bigwigs feel like they're doing something.

HR as a department grew into being as a result of the 60s Civil Rights laws. They became necessary to keep the company from breaking the law. They are earning their keep if the company doesn't get sued by the federal government.

DEI came about through nothing but the desire of companies to get a good DEI score.

DEI in business and government is what we called in the military a "Giant, Self-Licking Ice Cream Cone." It exists only to promote itself, and all it does in any company is create its own reason to exist for the employment of the DEI staff. It creates problems, then points to the problems and says, "That's why you need us."

A giant, self-licking ice cream cone.

But as I've pointed out in another thread, DEI is an application of Critical Theory ideology at the intersection (in their language) of Critical Race Theory and Radical Feminism. It enters a company and identifies Oppressors (white and male) and Oppressed ("People of Color" and female). It will never solve a problem...it just identifies class warfare between Oppressors and Victims and serves its self-appointed role to suppress the Oppressors for the benefit of the Oppressed.

It does have a goal, if you question them hard enough, and that goal...interestingly...looks just like the world-wide capitalism-free Communism of Marx.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That may be, but so do marketing departments, HR, executives, and a whole bunch of folks in the consultant class; oh, and law enforcement. Do you think the satisfaction surveys they send out to employees or that they print on the receipts at Walmart and Home Depot actually give real insight into the satisfaction levels of the people being polled? No, because they're all garbage. But some consultant somewhere got paid to suggest it; and some IT firm got paid to implement it; and some store manager has his bonus pegged to the response rate, because it makes the bigwigs feel like they're doing something.

...right, but those kinds of things aren't getting weaponized.

Nobody's getting "cancelled" for saying, as you have, that the surveys on Home Depot receipts are junk. (Go to a company that's all-in on DEI and talk about their DEI seminars the same way you just talked about the marketing teams for walmart and home depot...and see how long it is before you start getting written up by HR)

Nobody's having "fill out your Walmart survey from your last purchase" breakout sessions as a mandatory condition of keeping their employment.


The implications are also way different.

A home depot survey isn't predicated on the premise of "if you're cis/straight/white, you have implicit biases and things that are inherently wrong with your outlook on life...that is, until you sit in our 90-minute seminar so we can properly educate your and check your privilege"

 

[ThatRobGuy]

DEI in business and government is what we called in the military a "Giant, Self-Licking Ice Cream Cone."

The military people in my family used a slightly different expression to describe that...I'm guessing you changed up the verbiage just a tad to keep it G-rated for the forums lol.

It exists only to promote itself, and all it does in any company is create its own reason to exist for the employment of the DEI staff. It creates problems, then points to the problems and says, "That's why you need us."

That, and in the age of social media, DEI (as both a philosophy, and an industry) amasses followers who want to be seen as being "on the good side", and will target organizations and individuals who refuse to "bend a knee".

DEI advocates also have a rather unorthodox form of "evangelism", in which not only do they try to recruit you to their way of thinking, they're often unwilling to accept non-participation or neutrality as an option.

One example: One of the early "inventions" of the DEI movement was the whole "here's your sticker you can write your pronouns on and put on your shirt so people don't have to ask". When not enough people were doing it, it morphed into "Why refusing to list your pronouns or saying 'I don't care what you call me' is a form of cis-privilege and is disrespectful to people who take pronouns seriously"

And before anyone thinks I'm just cherry picking some radical DEI groups statements for that, and that's not a real indication of what's happening in the mainstream

Right from Stanford's "Elimination of Harmful Speech Guidelines"

• If you conform to (most) gender expectations and are not a transgender person, don’t indicate that you “don’t care what pronouns are used for me.” Such statements reinforce the privilege of people who are gender conforming and not transgender because these people are not going to be misgendered and thus do not need to worry about the pronouns that people use for them. It also invalidates the experiences of gender nonconforming and transgender people, many of whom struggle with getting people to use their correct pronouns.

 

[iluvatar5150]

...right, but those kinds of things aren't getting weaponized.

Nobody's getting "cancelled" for saying, as you have, that the surveys on Home Depot receipts are junk. (Go to a company that's all-in on DEI and talk about their DEI seminars the same way you just talked about the marketing teams for walmart and home depot...and see how long it is before you start getting written up by HR)

Nobody's having "fill out your Walmart survey from your last purchase" breakout sessions as a mandatory condition of keeping their employment.

You don’t think if I told our CEO that their last employee engagement survey was asinine (which it was) that my employment situation wouldn’t be reevaluated? Companies absolutely use stuff like this to determine bonuses and other employment situations. Sometimes people are measured on response rate; sometimes it’s on the average rating. From what I understand, anything below 5-stars can be a kiss of death in some places.

 

[iluvatar5150]

HR as a department grew into being as a result of the 60s Civil Rights laws. They became necessary to keep the company from breaking the law. They are earning their keep if the company doesn't get sued by the federal government.

DEI came about through nothing but the desire of companies to get a good DEI score.

DEI in business and government is what we called in the military a "Giant, Self-Licking Ice Cream Cone." It exists only to promote itself, and all it does in any company is create its own reason to exist for the employment of the DEI staff. It creates problems, then points to the problems and says, "That's why you need us."

A giant, self-licking ice cream cone.

I don’t even disagree with you; I just don’t think this is anything new or unique.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

You don’t think if I told our CEO that their last employee engagement survey was asinine (which it was) that my employment situation wouldn’t be reevaluated? Companies absolutely use stuff like this to determine bonuses and other employment situations. Sometimes people are measured on response rate; sometimes it’s on the average rating. From what I understand, anything below 5-stars can be a kiss of death in some places.

The example you used was the Walmart and home depot surveys, so I thought we were speaking the realm of "external organizations" (which is usually what happens in a lot of the places as not every business has the revenue to have their own dedicated DEI department, so they call in consulting companies to do it)

But if we want to keep the conversation limited to "in-house departments"...

Did your company compel you to wear "I took the employee satisfaction survey" stickers on your shirts?
Did you have to sit in a breakout session of any kind and get lectured about any type of "privilege"?

And most importantly, did the employee survey you had to fill out attempt to separate employees into the two buckets of "oppressor" vs. "oppressed"?

If the answer to each of those is "no", then there's the answer to the question "What's different about it".


Look, I get that some companies want to recognize the fact that times are changing, and want to be inclusive...that's fine...that's a good thing. Nobody should be calling gay people slurs or denying them promotions, and nobody should telling black jokes in the breakroom...


But we've got to find happy medium between this:

And this:

In many ways, DEI is something of an over-correction.