Franklin Graham says ‘Christian nationalism’ is a ‘coin the media came up with’

[BobRyan]

Evangelist Franklin Graham, the son of legendary evangelist Billy Graham, said in a recent interview that the term "Christian nationalism" is often used by the media as a tactic to polarize and divide the country.

Continued below.

Franklin Graham says ‘Christian nationalism’ is a ‘coin the media came up with’

Evangelist Franklin Graham, the son of legendary evangelist Billy Graham, said in a recent interview that the term Christian nationalism is often used by the media as a tactic to polarize and divide

www.christianpost.com

1. Identifying America as a "Christian nation" rather than an "atheist nation" or a "Hindu nation" - is actually a good thing. It means that we look for Christian principles to guide the nation. It means we have logical basis for morality when we say "love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 - "is a good thing". Our "freedom of Religion" stops the "Christian nation" idea from selecting any one Christian group to be the one everyone must pay taxes to, must attend, must follow.

2. Identifying the laws of our nation and even the supreme court as having high value for the TEN Commandments (the 10 on the doors to the Supreme court, on the wall of the Supreme court on the outside of the Supreme court building) - does not change our laws - but it reminds us to focus on God as the law giver, to focus on His values and standards

 

[BobRyan]

Yeah, it doesn’t represent Catholicism or Orthodoxy at all.

By contrast to central and south america

 

[BobRyan]

And yet Joe Biden considers himself to be a faithful Catholic, following in his own mind what he thinks his religion teaches.

true.

His woke (many letters) version would be a kind of "Christian Nationalism" that looks a lot like COEXIST.

 

[chevyontheriver]

true.

His woke (many letters) version would be a kind of "Christian Nationalism" that looks a lot like COEXIST.

Maybe so. While the Christian Nationalism of the Right seems eager to exclude me because I’m Catholic this Christian Nationalism of the Left would also exclude me for not being woke but would be eager to baptize any woke fellow travelers. Ah, maybe it’s really a Woke Nationalism with not much room for people who don’t quite agree.

Somebody should make a table of Christian Nationalism of the Right compared to Woke Nationalism of the Left. Might be interesting.

And me? I’m just not very nationalist. And I don’t fit everybody’s definition of Christian. Needless to say not woke.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Maybe so. While the Christian Nationalism of the Right seems eager to exclude me because I’m Catholic this Christian Nationalism of the Left would also exclude me for not being woke but would be eager to baptize any woke fellow travelers. Ah, maybe it’s really a Woke Nationalism with not much room for people who don’t quite agree.

Somebody should make a table of Christian Nationalism of the Right compared to Woke Nationalism of the Left. Might be interesting.

And me? I’m just not very nationalist. And I don’t fit everybody’s definition of Christian. Needless to say not woke.

It wouldn't be much of a table since, again, "Woke Nationalism of the Left" doesn't exist in the US. The term itself is an oxymoron because the popular notion of "wokeness" leans at least partially on the Marxist notion of oppressors and victims, and American nationalism seeks to solidify power of the already-powerful incumbent ethnic groups. At least in the US context, nationalism is, by definition, not "woke."

 

[Tuur]

And yet Joe Biden considers himself to be a faithful Catholic, following in his own mind what he thinks his religion teaches. I think there may indeed be a Christian Nationalism of the Left. Even Kamala Harris revealed how she spoke with her pastor when Biden dropped out.

There are many faithful church goers in many Christian denominations who aren't faithful Christians. Just sayin'.

 

[rturner76]

I think they came up with this label because of the droves of Christian Nationalists that are supporting Trump.

Views of the U.S. as a ‘Christian nation’ and opinions about ‘Christian nationalism’

Most Americans think the founders of America intended for the U.S. to be a “Christian nation,” more than four-in-ten think the United States should be a

www.pewresearch.org

 

[okay]

As a Christian who values Christianity first and foremost I am for the Idea of a religiously oriented society and not the sort of society you desire.

Good for you, but that violates the US constitution. Going that route would require a constitutional amendment first.

As for being loving to Christians with different beliefs what do you mean?

It is not treating others the way I would want to be treated. You know, the golden rule. I know Christians who consider the Hail Mary to be idolatrous, and other Christians who believe that Calvinism is heretical. If either stream of Christianity controlled the government, they could effectively persecute other Christians. I’m sure there are tons of ways this can play out in a bad way.

Don’t think this cannot happen in the real world.

Jefferson’s famous letter about separation of church and state was written to Baptists in Connecticut who were complaining that the Calvinists who founded the state were limiting their religious freedom.

It could be agreed upon locally, denominational public schools could be set up. A curriculum would be written by Christian educational professionals

These already exist as private schools - which do not violate our law.

Do you believe Christian education is inferior to a purely secular education?

Nope.

I guess it would depend on what those who run the state agree to.

Yes, and ‘who runs the state’ changes every election cycle. And of course it all of this violates the constitution. I’m tired of writing that but it seems like you are happy to pretend that we have a form of government that we do not have.

They could impose any limitation they want on birth control. Would it not be up to the state or entity to decide this?

Yes, it would, which I find terrifying.

 

[okay]

Okay, then I'm not going to consider them as Christians. Period. If you cannot adopt the Nicene Creed and it's positions you are not a Christian. That means if you reject the resurrection, if you reject Jesus was God incarnate (as I believe some here do), then you have forfeited your Christianity. Unlike you I don't think Christianity needs to be as inclusive as possible, that's part of the problem.

Deciding not to adopt it is not at all the same as rejecting it. Not at all. You are being completely unfair and unreasonable - choosing to assume the worst about others instead of trying to learn and showing grace.

I could never be in an SBC church for a gazillion reason, but the few folks I do know in SBC churches clearly have orthodox trinitarian theology. They are clearly my siblings in Christ, even though we agree on very little. But Baptists have been doing without a creed for a long time, which is probably the reason for resistance. I would be shocked if very many Baptists have theological objections to the creed.

The church I was at the past 5 years also taught theology that is consistent with the Nicene creed, although the denomination in non-creedal.


Speaking of the Nicene Creed…

Like Episcopalians who are less likely to belief Christian doctrine.

Excuse me? Every Episcopal Eucharist service (the typical Sunday morning service around here) I have ever been to includes an affirmation of the Nicene Creed. Is that not good enough doctrine for you?

Perhaps I am too sensitive about Christians not accepting the legitimacy of other Christian’s faith, but these comments of yours are troubling to me. I’m done here. I wish you the best.

 

[Lukaris]

I think they came up with this label because of the droves of Christian Nationalists that are supporting Trump.

View attachment 352501

Views of the U.S. as a ‘Christian nation’ and opinions about ‘Christian nationalism’

Most Americans think the founders of America intended for the U.S. to be a “Christian nation,” more than four-in-ten think the United States should be a

www.pewresearch.org

I believe Pastor Franklin and that this survey is probably a stacked survey for the left to concoct some sort of demographic to rally against. Conservatives should probably avoid any surveys since most are probably a set up. Personally, I am Christian by faith and nationalist in secular politics and believe in separation of state and church, mosque, ashram, synagogue & any other bad mix. It should be separation of the state from religion so we have religious freedom in America.

The “separation of church and state” never seems to indicate anything other than a negative implication of Christianity. Christians do have the right to promote faith in which Christian values could lead to being a spiritual, dominant society. Secular and religious ( including non religious philosophy) rights must be balanced in America.

 

[The Barbarian]

Nope. I want no part of this.

Neither does God, if we can believe Jesus.

 

[rturner76]

I believe Pastor Franklin and that this survey is probably a stacked survey for the left to concoct some sort of demographic to rally against. Conservatives should probably avoid any surveys since most are probably a set up.

Are you sure it's a setup or is it information that you simply don't like? I'm sure if the Pew Center is guilty of libel the records of the survey could be subpoenaed and a guilty verdict with a financial settlement could be granted to the respondents of the survey who's answers were misrepresented.

The Pew Center has a good track record of reporting the results of their surveys. Is there anything you can point to that would indicate they are not a credible organization or is it that when surveys indicate information that you disagree with you find them "stacked?" It clearly shows every demographic contacted so it doesn't look like they surveyed one particular group of people in an unbalanced way.

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe so. While the Christian Nationalism of the Right seems eager to exclude me because I’m Catholic

I have yet to see that in real life. It looks like the Christian right has a lot of Catholics in it

Catholic Christian nationalism is having a moment

"(RNS) — Catholics are becoming some of Christian nationalism’s most muscular champions."

this Christian Nationalism of the Left would also exclude me for not being woke

ok - you got me on that one. I agree that in theory there is no joining of Catholics to the LGBTQ+ or abortion agenda. Which is why I find that union so inexplicable.

Kind of like Jews supporting the left as it tries to ditch support for Israel. Makes no sense to me.

 

[BobRyan]

I think they came up with this label because of the droves of Christian Nationalists that are supporting Trump.

View attachment 352501

Views of the U.S. as a ‘Christian nation’ and opinions about ‘Christian nationalism’

Most Americans think the founders of America intended for the U.S. to be a “Christian nation,” more than four-in-ten think the United States should be a

www.pewresearch.org

Good point - and it is very hard to miss the detail that one or two Catholics show up in that survey in the "Christian Nationalism" category.

I don't see how that is even a little bit invisible.

 

[Lukaris]

Are you sure it's a setup or is it information that you simply don't like? I'm sure if the Pew Center is guilty of libel the records of the survey could be subpoenaed and a guilty verdict with a financial settlement could be granted to the respondents of the survey who's answers were misrepresented.

The Pew Center has a good track record of reporting the results of their surveys. Is there anything you can point to that would indicate they are not a credible organization or is it that when surveys indicate information that you disagree with you find them "stacked?" It clearly shows every demographic contacted so it doesn't look like they surveyed one particular group of people in an unbalanced way.

Like Pastor Franklin, I believe “Christian Nationalist” is a concoction. Any survey from this premise, I believe, is untrustworthy whether its intentions are honest or not. Phew probably believes the premise is valid but I view it as “garbage in and garbage out”. It is not libel on their part. I personally believe liberal leftist psychology is so embedded in the overwhelming media mindset, that Conservatives should distrust it.

 

[rturner76]

Good point - and it is very hard to miss the detail that one or two Catholics show up in that survey in the "Christian Nationalism" category.

I don't see how that is even a little bit invisible.

I'm pretty sure they call people at random and ask what their religion is. I doubt that they were given a predetermined list of who is what religion and called them based on that.

 

[rturner76]

Phew probably believes the premise is valid but I view it as “garbage in and garbage out”. It is not libel on their part. I personally believe liberal leftist psychology is so embedded in the overwhelming media mindset, that Conservatives should

I get it, you prefer judging on personal bias rather than tracking statistics. At least you know you are more driven by personal opinion rather than facts. That's a good thing you know about yourself. Are all surveys that have statistics that you don't like garbage or are all surveys garbage in general?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Good for you, but that violates the US constitution. Going that route would require a constitutional amendment first.

Depends on whether or not Christians should adhere to the US constitution or seek to maintain it. From a Christian point of view, we are not bound to support a political order like the US constitution.

It is not treating others the way I would want to be treated. You know, the golden rule. I know Christians who consider the Hail Mary to be idolatrous, and other Christians who believe that Calvinism is heretical. If either stream of Christianity controlled the government, they could effectively persecute other Christians. I’m sure there are tons of ways this can play out in a bad way.

I'd be more than fine with Hindus and other religious groups having their own nations and operating according to their values. I don't demand they all change to accommodate me.

Don’t think this cannot happen in the real world.

One man's persecution is another's defending of the character of the nation. We aren't entitled to acceptance in this life and we don't have a right to impose our presence on others and demand toleration.

Jefferson’s famous letter about separation of church and state was written to Baptists in Connecticut who were complaining that the Calvinists who founded the state were limiting their religious freedom.

Jefferson wasn't a Christian, so why should I care about his opinions?

These already exist as private schools - which do not violate our law.

And why can't public schools of a nation seek to teach things which reinforce the sort of values that Christians might want? Why should Christians surrender education to secularists to influence the children of Christians? If in a Christian nation public education is Christian in nature, what is your opposition to it? Do you dislike children being taught and raised in religion?

Nope.

Then what reason is there to object to a Christian curriculum in public education?

Yes, and ‘who runs the state’ changes every election cycle. And of course it all of this violates the constitution. I’m tired of writing that but it seems like you are happy to pretend that we have a form of government that we do not have.

We don't have to do anything, rather all I am saying is that it is perfectly legitimate for Christians to seek their own political order that is not Liberal or having the values you profess. Namely total state secularism. We don't have to embody or support that.

Yes, it would, which I find terrifying.

Why? Would you find it terrifying if a Christian state sought to outlaw and limit pornography as well?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I have yet to see that in real life. It looks like the Christian right has a lot of Catholics in it

Catholic Christian nationalism is having a moment

"(RNS) — Catholics are becoming some of Christian nationalism’s most muscular champions."

Sorry I don’t have a picture of the Christian Nationalist billboard I recently saw which insisted on ‘Protestant Christianity’. Those people would stab Catholics in the back when the time came after using them to get elected. Folks like Trump are not Christian Nationalists but would use them AND Catholics before stabbing both in the back. Old time Republicans came to a sort of peace with Catholics but really only wanted us for our votes. Conservatives have long been hospitable to Catholics but Conservatives are not exactly Old time Republicans are not exactly Trumpists are not exactly Christian Nationalists. They all can have some common characteristics but it’s crazy to lump them all together as if they are the same. Thinking faithful Catholics once had a home with the Democrats but that home has become very inhospitable in recent decades. Been there. Done that. Can’t go back.

 

[FireDragon76]

And yet Joe Biden considers himself to be a faithful Catholic, following in his own mind what he thinks his religion teaches. I think there may indeed be a Christian Nationalism of the Left. Even Kamala Harris revealed how she spoke with her pastor when Biden dropped out.

Merely being a Christian is not the same as the ideology of Christian nationalism.