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Evidence of Hebrew Slavery in Egypt?

public hermit

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I do not think the Hebrews were slaves because they brought gold with them and could cast a golden calf. Slaves do not own gold, and if they do, how did they get it? Through occupation or trading. Slaves are held by the master, who controls all items, including gold. How did slaves bring gold with them? Hebrews earned and/or traded, which they then brought with them when they traveled

According to the Hebrew scriptures, the Hebrews asked their Egyptian neighbors for objects of gold and silver before they left (the word used can mean ask or demand). Why give such objects? The scriptures state that the Lord made the Egyptians favorable to the Hebrews. Maybe they felt badly for the way they were oppressed? Maybe a bunch of plagues encouraged them? At any rate, the Hebrew scriptures give an account for the gold the wandering Hebrews later possessed.

Your general theory regarding the Yavada clan is interesting, and new to me, so I don't have much to comment on that.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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@public hermit I need to make correction with my message above this message. It won't let me make correction because ran out of time for correction



The correction is: Exodus took place from the Indus Valley (India) to Yisrael, and the Yadavas later changed their name to the Hebrews.

Added info: I include more modern name such as India to show location.

Somehow, I don't think orthodox Jewish scholars will agree with this. But, what do I know???
 
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common prophets

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We shouldn't expect the Egyptians to corroborate the Hebrew account. The winners write history, and so on, but this is interesting. The biblical account could be tracking truth and we still should not expect to find Egyptian corroboration. Why would the Egyptians recount their own defeat? That is not the stuff of Egyptian history. lol. I wonder about the use of "Semitic peoples." As a term, it hardly;y makes sense pre-Exodus, extra-biblical. That term included Arabs and a whole host of folks in the relevant time period, according to antiquated ways of tracking such things..
While I agree that Egyptians may not have written the Hebrew account, but I want to place before your various evidences for the same account from the Indus Valley.

I am giving below the various points that established that Exodus took place from the Indus Valley. I would be very happy to receive your point wise comments. Thank you.

"Exodus from Egypt or Indus Valley?

I compare the evidence (1) Within Mitsrayim (~Egypt or Indus); (2) Route of the Exodus; (3) Names; (4) Narratives.



1] Evidence from Mitsrayim​

Egypt: Pyramids built of mud-and-straw bricks (Exodus 5:7–8) and both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt (Exodus 1:13–14). I have not seen evidence of mud brick pyramids. Mud bricks were used only for poor-houses of the poor in Egypt. Main construction material was stone. A conflict leading to Exodus would scarcely take place on the construction of poor-houses. Further, only 1% straw was added as binder in mud bricks. The conflict, then, would more likely take on collection of clay etc. rather than straw.

Indus: Entire cities in the Indus were made from burnt bricks. Straw constitutes one-half of the cost of production of baked bricks and conflict on collection of the same makes sense.

Egypt: Skeletons of infants of three months old and younger, usually several in one box, buried under homes in a slave town called Kahun (Exodus 1:16), corresponding to Pharaoh’s slaughter of Hebrew infants. But we don’t know the narrative behind it.

Indus: Hindu King Kamsa ordered all male children of the Yadavas to be killed. No parallel legend in Egypt.

Egypt: Masses of houses and shops in Kahun, abandoned so quickly that tools, household implements, and other possessions were left behind. The findings suggest the abandonment was total, hasty, and done on short notice (Exodus 12:30–34, 39), consistent with the Israelites’ sudden exit from Egypt in the wake of Passover.

Indus: Entire cities were abandoned around 1500 BCE.

Egypt: Court advisors used rods that look like snakes (Exodus 7:10–12). This partly corroborates the magical opposition against Moses performed by Pharaoh’s advisors.

Indus: The stick is a standard weapon even in contemporary India.

Egypt: The Ipuwer Papyrus, a work of poetry stating, in part, “Plague stalks through the land and blood is everywhere… Nay, but the river is blood… gates, columns and walls are consumed with fire… the son of the high-born man is no longer to be recognized… The stranger people from outside are come into Egypt… Nay, but corn has perished everywhere.” But the connection of this narrative with the Hebrews is not established. There is no reference to them leaving.
Indus: The Hindu texts tell of the Yadavas leaving due to natural calamities or troubles.

2] Route of the Exodus​

Egypt: No parting of sea in Egypt.

Indus: The parting of the Yam Suf matches with the flow of the Indus River being blocked by eruption of a mud volcano upstream of the point of crossing.



Egypt: No location of Second Yam Suf (Numbers 33:10).

Indus: Hamun-e-Mashkel water body falls on the route.



Egypt: Sinai was under control of Egyptians.

Indus: The Indus formed a natural border between the fleeing Hebrews and pursuing Mitsrites.



Egypt: No volcano in Sinai.

Indus: Taftan.



Egypt: No place named Paran in Sinai.

Indus: Ancient place name ‘Paran” near Isfahan.



Egypt: No Kings Highway between Egypt and Israel.

Indus: Kings Highway matches with the Silk Route from Tehran to Baghdad.



Egypt: No Mount Hor in Sinai.

Indus: Mount Hor matches with Kangavar. Local legends tell of an “Enclosure of Kanha”—which is another name of Krishna whom we identify as Moses.



Egypt: No reason why Hebrews would go to Aquaba where the third Yam Suf is supposed to be located.

Indus: Third Yam Suf matches with Shatt al-Arab.



3] Narratives​

Common points in the Biblical narrative of Moses and Hindu narrative of Krishna.

Born in duress.

Infant flown across the river.

From royal family.

Kills Mitsrite-Kamsa and leaves.

Apprentice with Jethro-Sandipani.

Returns.

Leaves homeland with his kin. I quote below just one parallel:

Bible: Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, kill his companion, and every man his neighbour (Exodus 32:27).

Son killed father, brother killed brother, nephew killed uncle, grandson killed grandfather, friend killed friend… When their arrows were exhausted and weapons were broken, they started pulling out reeds from the seacoast. This grass grew out of the powder of the pestle (Bhagwata Purana 11:30:13, 19-21).



4] Names​

The Amarna letters, ancient correspondence between Egyptian and Middle Eastern rulers, blame significant unrest on a people group labelled as Habiru or ‘Apiru (Exodus 9:1).

Indus: The name Amram, father of Moses, and his parallel Hindu Vasudeva, father of Krishna. The name Amram means “exalted people.” The name “Vasudeva” has two parts. “Vasu” means “excellent, good, beneficent” and Deva means God. Thus, Vasudeva means “excellent God” which is similar to “exalted people.”

The name of Moses’ mother Jochebed and her parallel Krishna’s mother Devaki. The name “Jochebed” is derived from Jehovah or God. “Jochebed” means “Jehovah is glory.” Devaki, on the other hand was daughter of Devaka. The name Devaka means “divine or celestial”. So, Devaki means daughter of the divine which is parallel to Jochebed meaning Jehovah is glory.

The name of Biblical Moses and is parallel Hindu Krishna. Moses’ skin was dark. At one time Moses was at Mount Sinai. God wanted to show him His powers. He asked Moses to put his hand inside his cloak. The Bible says that his hand became white. Then God again asked him to put his hand in the cloak and it regains its normal color. The skin becoming white means that the skin was “not white” before it became white; which means it was dark. Therefore, we can say that the word Moses has a connection with darkness. The name Krishna directly means black, dark or dark blue.

The name of Biblical Aaron and his parallel Hindu Balarama. Both names have the common sounds “A,” “R” and “N” or “M.” "
 
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rvs

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orthodox Jewish scholars

@2PhiloVoid
How do orthodox Jewish scholars view Exodus? Do you know any orthodox Jewish scholars you learned from? If so, what did you learn from them? I notice there's Messianic Jews in this forum; I wonder what they think of Exodus. Have you ever learned anything from the Messianic Jews? If you had, what are some of the things you learned?

The name “Jochebed” is derived from Jehovah or God. “Jochebed” means “Jehovah is glory.”

@common prophets
So Jochebed means Jehovah is glory. Have you ever personally experienced the glory from Jehovah? If you have, what things did you learn from this?

According to the Hebrew scriptures, the Hebrews asked their Egyptian neighbors for objects of gold and silver before they left (the word used can mean ask or demand). Why give such objects? The scriptures state that the Lord made the Egyptians favorable to the Hebrews. Maybe they felt badly for the way they were oppressed? Maybe a bunch of plagues encouraged them? At any rate, the Hebrew scriptures give an account for the gold the wandering Hebrews later possessed.
@public hermit

I did not know that the Lord made the Egyptians favorable to the Hebrews. What about other nearby tribes? What did they think of the Hebrews? What tribes sail the sea?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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@2PhiloVoid
How do orthodox Jewish scholars view Exodus? Do you know any orthodox Jewish scholars you learned from? If so, what did you learn from them? I notice there's Messianic Jews in this forum; I wonder what they think of Exodus. Have you ever learned anything from the Messianic Jews? If you had, what are some of the things you learned?
From what I can tell after briefly leafing through the two dozen books I have in my possession from Liberal and Conservative Jewish writers (and Rabbis), I see nothing in any of them indicating they think their own people originally came from the Indus Valley.

If you somehow think they did come out of the Indus Valley, I'd have to question not only your scholarly references, but your understanding of Historiography, both ancient and modern.
 
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rvs

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From what I can tell after briefly leafing through the two dozen books I have in my possession by Liberal and Conservative Jewish writers (and Rabbis), I see nothing in any of them indicating they think their own people originally came from the Indus Valley.

If you somehow think they did come out of the Indus Valley, I'd have to question not only your scholarly references, but your understanding of Historiography, both ancient and modern.

@2PhiloVoid @common prophets

Scott Stripling
Is one of the authors in five views of exodus, your thoughts please


What did they use this for?

Tell el-Daba, ancient Avaris (Peru Nefer), was the epicenter of the Exodus in Goshen (Delta region). Perry is likely the first to blow the shofar here since 1446 when the Exodus occurred.

There's Rabbi Alan Brill. I wonder what Rabbi Alan Brill thinks about Exodus because he's been to India? @common prophets what does Rabbi Alan Brill think about Exodus?

Exodus means leave and many people left due to droughts.

Here's Rabbi Alan Brill - actually one of my favorite videos because how happy they are as they're in a functional discussion

Meru Manthan Series: Judaism and Hinduism A Discussion with Rabbi Alan Brill
 
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rvs

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James K Hoffmeier is one of the authors in five views of exodus and showing in the video from your post @2PhiloVoid

Signs of Israelite Slavery in Egypt - The Exodus
by PatternsOfEvidence

video ontop post
Early Date: The Exodus Took Place in the Fifteenth Century BC (Scott Stripling)
Late Date: A Historical Exodus in the Thirteenth Century BC (James K. Hoffmeier)
A Hyksos Levite Led Exodus in the Time of Ramesses II (Peter Feinman)
Alternative Late Date: The Exodus Took Place in the Twelfth Century BC (Gary A. Rendsburg)

Do I have all five authors?

Your thoughts on the chronicles?

@common prophets how does river rise when there's a drought, that the Pharaohs' army drown, even if a mud volcano erupt, yet there's a drought, so how would a dry river rise of water

this is what I really wanted to ask
 
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rvs

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@2PhiloVoid @common prophets

Historiography

There's the pie.
Sanskrit eastward German westward


Wim Borsboom explain he prefers Dutch westward

He's Dutch and he discovered Sanskrit when he was young and notice similarities

Please check this out @common prophets @2PhiloVoid


1722374788950.png


In color is a seal, in black and white two seals and corresponding sealings made from them (Joshi and Parpola, Corpus of Indus Seals and Inscriptions, Vol. 1, M 306-8).

1722374857404.png


Planoconvex molded tablet from Harappa showing a deity battling two tigers. "The thick jungles of the Indus Valley were full of tigers and leopards, so it is not surprising that the image of a ferocious feline is a recurring motif in ritual narratives on seals as well as molded tablets... The figure strangling the two tigers may represent a female, as a pronounced breast can be seen in profile. Earlier discoveries of this motif on seals from Mohenjo-daro definitely show a male figure, and most scholars have assumed some connection with the carved seals from Mesopotamia that illustrate episodes from the famous Gilgamesh epic. The Mesopotamian epics show lions being strangled by a hero, whereas the Indus narratives render tigers being strangled by a figure, sometimes clearly males, sometimes ambiguous or possibly female. This motif of a hero or heroine grappling with two wild animals could have been created independently for similar events that may have occurred in Mesopotamia as well as the Indus valley." (Mark Kenoyer, Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization, p. 114)

@common prophets you can help me please

Because showing Exodus from people who had to leave their homes, would show of what
Historiography as @2PhiloVoid asked an interesting question.

Yes @2PhiloVoid as you shown in your first post, we can discuss Late Date: A Historical Exodus in the Thirteenth Century BC (James K. Hoffmeier) as well

Because what is the Thirteenth Century BC that James K. Hoffmeier writes about? What type of wells and cisterns did they have to help with water

Oh there's 3 layers too

The second layer is for agricultures

Oh and there's this

Each year, the Sukkot festivities become a remembrance during the fall harvest while also remembering the 40-years exodus era as they traveled to Yisrael by presenting all they brought with them.

etrog ( אתרוג‎) – the fruit of a citron tree.
lulav ( לולב‎) – a ripe, green, closed frond from a date palm tree.
hadass ( הדס‎) – boughs with leaves from the myrtle tree.
aravah ( ערבה‎) – branches with leaves from the willow tree

I'm so excited, there's 3 layers, and I wrote something and I'm trying to find it....

anyways, it's the second layer that they do agriculturing - yet it's shows as if the 3rd

so picture 3rd being the second layer

I think it was called layers

Check this out this video it's about farming however in Egypt

 
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common prophets

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James K Hoffmeier is one of the authors in five views of exodus and showing in the video from your post @2PhiloVoid

Signs of Israelite Slavery in Egypt - The Exodus
by PatternsOfEvidence

video ontop post
Early Date: The Exodus Took Place in the Fifteenth Century BC (Scott Stripling)
Late Date: A Historical Exodus in the Thirteenth Century BC (James K. Hoffmeier)
A Hyksos Levite Led Exodus in the Time of Ramesses II (Peter Feinman)
Alternative Late Date: The Exodus Took Place in the Twelfth Century BC (Gary A. Rendsburg)

Do I have all five authors?

Your thoughts on the chronicles?

@common prophets how does river rise when there's a drought, that the Pharaohs' army drown, even if a mud volcano erupt, yet there's a drought, so how would a dry river rise of water

this is what I really wanted to ask
A photograph of people making bricks does not translate to use of 50% straw in making baked bricks. This can very well be the mud bricks used for the workers quarters and this does not translate into a conflict with the Pharaoh on Straw.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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@2PhiloVoid @common prophets

Scott Stripling
Is one of the authors in five views of exodus, your thoughts please
I'm not familiar with Scott Stripling, although I am familiar with Israel Finkelstein and William Dever, to name a few. Both are liberal scholars and neither of whom think that historical Israel originated from the Indus Valley as far as I know.

As a baseline for considering the determination of the origination of Israel, I would add the general, rational hypothesizing by Israeli archaeologist, Nadav Naʾaman (2011), as pertinent to how we may better make sense out of the literary and archaeological remnants we have about the Exodus

Naʾaman, Nadav. "The Exodus Story: Between Historical Memory and Historiographical Composition." Journal of Ancient Near Eastern Religions 11, no. 1 (2011): 39-69.​

[Edit: Apparently, Scott Stripling is the conservative biblical archaeologist who has promoted his excavations of Shiloh and also the apparent discovery of what is being touted as the Mt. Ebal Curse Inscription. Other than this, I'm not yet up to speed on Stripling's perspective on the Exodus, other than that he thinks it is historically reflected in the book of Exodus.]
 
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rvs

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Nadav Naʾaman (2011), as pertinent to how we may better make sense out of the literary and archaeological remnants we have about the Exodus

Naʾaman, Nadav. "The Exodus Story: Between Historical Memory and Historiographical Composition." Journal of Ancient Near Eastern Religions 11, no. 1 (2011): 39-69.

page 52
he Great Papyrus Harris registers many donations of serfs, cattle, grain and oil that Ramesses III made to temples in Egypt, in particular to the temple of Amun at Heliopolis. He also donated many towns in Egypt and nine cities in Khuru (i.e., Canaan) to the temple of Amun. We should not assume that
temples of Amun were built in these nine cities (whose identity remains unknown); rather, the taxes of the cities were brought to the treasury of Amun’s temple at Heliopolis.

(I'm still looking how far east) I think so far east is Israel am I reading correctly? I only gotten as far as page 25. I highlighted grain and oil. What kind of oil is this? I recall David getting oil pour on him, and that caused him to be King? How did Oil do that? Was that the same kind of oil, what do you think about that? what is oil and what all do they do with oil?

I learned that Canaan is located in Ghuram India. However many claims the name Canaan located in Israel, how come? This caused me to wonder about people in Ghuram did they also travel to Israel and brought with the name Canaan? It's only a question. Also I'm not sure if these people in that location sail the sea - who are these sea people?

@common prophets do you know anything about these people in Ghuram India? And were they too affected by the drought that caused many tribes to leave India? Exodus means leave.

Other tribes left as well due to this drought, some however remain in India example in reference to R-M124 Gene , which claim the Karmali tribe has at 100% R-M124 Gene, remain in India, so no Exodus for the Karmali tribe.

Was it due to living east of the Yamuna River, as the Yamuna River flowed east and no longer west?

Is it only affecting tribes that lives west from the Yamuna river and due to droughts left India (Exodus) and some how it's the Yadavas tribe that shows this R-M124 Gene that also shows in the Jews. I wonder if the Benjamin tribe shows any R-M124 Gene?

@2PhiloVoid @common prophets @public hermit

touted as the Mt. Ebal Curse Inscription

Touted means: attempt to sell (something), typically by pestering people in an aggressive or bold manner.

Yes I looked up the word touted as I didn't know this word. Is this why Christians rejects Scott Stripling is due to pestering, I don't know Scott Stripling, I only heard of him as he's the first person to be shown in this book five views of exodus.

In the video you shared. Had the author James K. Hoffmeier. Is James K. Hoffmeier more accepted by Christians. Is he pestering people less? Yet he's an archeologist too. Is Jesus an archaeologist? Jesus was missing for years, was he studying archaeology somewhere?

As a reminder I'll timestamp it
screenshot James K Hoffmeier an archeologist Christian. Do Christians accept him?
1723390205482.png

Here's video and it'll take you to James K Hoffmeier.

50% straw in making baked bricks

I'm aware that in this video shows Mud bricks needing only 1% of straw. Due to this wondering what was this urgent need to gather lots of straw. I wonder what James K. Hoffmeier thinks about this, do you know if he ever talked about burnt bake bricks needing 50% of straw?

Convergence of Evidences for Origins of Jews in the Indus Valley.

Here in this video showing more about R-M124 gene that the Jews has and how in tribes in India also has.

So to summarize this post.

1. Was it the reasons that the Karmali tribe lived on the east so able to drink water from the Yamuna river reasons able to not Exodus India? Compare to tribes living on the west of the Yamuna river and were dealing with droughts so then needed to Exodus? Yet I still am perplexed with this word Canaan that was used before Israel's naming, when Canaan is located in India, will you please help me with this word Canaan please? Who are these people who lived in Ghuram India (Canaan)? What treaties were made as well? In order to travel in harmony?

2. What was the reasoning for oil and how did oil communicate David as King?

3. The timing that I learned in that pdf about oil, did they also use oil for that type of communication then as well? How far east was this pdf, was it only as far as Canaan Israel? Let me look at the timing. The Great Papyrus Harris

4. who is he Great Papyrus Harris and did oil do for him as it did for David, there I form a question.

5. How many papyrus Harris are there.

1) The Great Harris Papyrus, papyrus, 20th Dynasty, Thebes

2)The Harris Papyrus: The Mighty Deeds of Ramesses III


or is this the same papyrus harris?

Lets find out


Papyrus Harris I, the Longest Known Egyptian Papyrus
Circa 1186 to 1155 BCE

The Great Harris Papyrus was found in a tomb near Medinet Habu Offsite Link, across the Nile river from Luxor, Egypt. It was purchased by collector and merchant Anthony Charles Harris Offsite Link in 1855. The hieratic Offsite Link text of the papyrus consists of a list of temple endowments and a brief summary of the entire reign of king Ramesses III Offsite Link, second Pharaoh of the Twentieth dynasty

So did Harris Papyrus ever used oil the same way that King David did?

I'll ask this?

What are all the uses of oil for and how did oil communicate and shall I use my new vocabulary that I'm practicing I will and watch

perfect and prefect

To David who had oil pour on him to be shown as King was David prefect in this situation and yet perfect or not perfect?

And what about Papyrus Harris, was he prefect in this situation and had any oil pour on him to show he's King, and yet perfect or not perfect?

There you witness me using two words that has caused me lots of challenges which is the words perfect and prefect

prefect means to be born into politics so then are in charge with in that area of politics

Perfect means without error: Some people thinks Jesus without error

Due to I had perfect and prefect as the same word and meaning, I then would had asked, how come Pontius pilate is perfect as he killed perfect Jesus, people would never address this.

until this person from elsewhere online shown me it's two different words.

Perfect Prefect

Then I finally understood.

Pontius Pilate was prefect born into and so was in charge of and the Jews wanted to get rid of 'perfect Jesus without error' so used Pontius Pilate due to he was prefect born into politics and able to give orders.

It's the Jews who were afraid of Jesus who the Jews thought was acting out a prefect King, and so the Jews went to Pontius Pilate who was prefect and so could give orders. How much did Jews blend in with the Romans? Would people know the differences?

While earlier the Jews laws were influenced by the Romans, no longer passing down through the males, but must be past down through females, mention by this author Shaye D. Cohen

Cohen has two theories about how this came to be. One is that the Tannaim, the rabbis who codified the concept of matrilineal descent, were influenced by the Roman legal system of the time. According to two sources from the end of the second century CE and the beginning of the third century CE, in a marriage between two Romans, a child would receive the status of his father. In an intermarriage between a Roman and a non-Roman, a child received the citizenship status of its mother.

 
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