Stupid California!

[probinson]

From here: Education has been a significant interest of Kamala Harris since early in her career

'Many of (Harris's) positions on education — including a push for universal pre-school, and making college debt-free — were aligned with those proposed by Biden, or ultimately implemented by him as president.'

And from here: Democrats overwhelmingly favor free college tuition, while Republicans are divided by age, education

'Among all U.S. adults, 63% favor making tuition at public colleges free, including 34% who strongly favor the proposal.'

Interesting. So if college tuition were "free", how would we pay the operating expenses for said colleges?

People love to hear the word "free", but...

Perhaps there is a compromise between soul-crushing debt and "free" that could be found.

 

[probinson]

No. Young people are catching on and, increasingly, not going to college just to go to college.

That's true. My son is 20. He has not yet chosen what he wants to do yet. He is being very cautious about assuming mountains of debt without fully understanding the debt. In the meantime, he still lives at home, works and banks nearly everything he makes.

What the loan forgiveness does is bail out the last generation to be fooled into thinking that a BA is a magic ticket to management.

But does nothing for this generation who will believe the same thing.

 

[probinson]

How many times have WHOLE industries been getting breaks from the US govt? How many times have airlines, oil industries, banking...all of them. How many tax loopholes should rich people have and should they also continues to receieve the same easy treatment?

Why is the cacophony so loud when it's people like you and me? Are you all feeling covetous?

I'm just asking what the plan is long term. It doesn't seem there is one. Except for politicians to use "loan forgiveness" when they need a spiffy campaign promise every few years or so.

Also, the arguments don't hold water with me. "I've paid $400/month for the last 10 years and I still owe over $20k! I've already paid more than double the cost of my loan!" Welcome to life. I've paid FAR more than that for FAR longer and I still owe over $80k on my house, but no one's lining up to forgive my mortgage. Perhaps educating students on simple and compound interest would be beneficial so they realize what they're agreeing to.

 

[Bradskii]

No.

But you've rejected one and accepted the other. You do know your posts don't disappear into the ether once someone has read them:

oh! So you would be willing to pay for a child's brain surgery in socialized medicare? That's heartening!

Sure. But not that same child’s student loan.

We'll take the first in lieu of the second. Thanks.

 

[Bradskii]

Interesting. So if college tuition were "free", how would we pay the operating expenses for said colleges?

People love to hear the word "free", but...

Perhaps there is a compromise between soul-crushing debt and "free" that could be found.

We're talking community colleges. Nobody expects Yale to be free. And the term was not free. It was debt-free. You don't make college so expensive that you have to go deep into debt to pay for it. From here: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/09/democrats-spending-plan-could-make-free-college-a-reality.html

'Among widespread investments in social programs and climate policy, the budget resolution would make community college tuition-free for two years — a move President Joe Biden as been advocating since the campaign trail.

“At its core, this legislation is about restoring the middle class in the 21st century and giving more Americans the opportunity to get there,” Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., told colleagues in a letter. “By making education, health care, child care and housing more affordable, we can give tens of millions of families a leg up.” '

A good idea would be to increase the number of apprenticeships available. Not everyone needs to go to college. Reduce the number of courses that lead nowhere. Increase courses that lead people in jobs that will benefit the country. Adjust the cost of courses to encourage people to take the latter.

 

[DaisyDay]

"my trusty spreadsheet looked at jobs data for “limited-service” restaurants for Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside and San Bernardino counties."

So apparently this is according to a spreadsheet made by an opinion columnist.

A search for "fast food employment decrease in california" produced:

AI Overview:

California fast food restaurants have slashed nearly 10,000 jobs because of the state's new $20 minimum wage as struggling franchises cut labor costs and raise prices to survive

I have heard that AI will often lie and make up things, that you should always double check any citations and never ever let AI write your legal briefs for you.

 

[rambot]

I'm just asking what the plan is long term. It doesn't seem there is one. Except for politicians to use "loan forgiveness" when they need a spiffy campaign promise every few years or so.

Also, the arguments don't hold water with me. "I've paid $400/month for the last 10 years and I still owe over $20k! I've already paid more than double the cost of my loan!" Welcome to life. I've paid FAR more than that for FAR longer and I still owe over $80k on my house, but no one's lining up to forgive my mortgage. Perhaps educating students on simple and compound interest would be beneficial so they realize what they're agreeing to.

Ah. You didn't get help so why should anyone else.
Do you think these folks are also going to ask their banks to forgive their mortgage?


I mean THAT is a hypothetical since the many of them are priced out of likely ever owning a home.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

The market will adjust to accept that higher minimum wage. Those companies who were paying their workers too little because they couldn't make a buck paying them a reasonable wage may go out of business. Those companies who can absorb the higher wages by a small increase in what they charge will survive. If the price is worth what they sell.

Capitalism eh?

The Walmarts and Targets of the world can more easily absorb those increases than smaller businesses can.

So while the economy can and will "adjust" to the increase, it'll likely be in the form of the mega Corps taking a bigger slice of the pie than they already have.

Fast food is a particularly bad case study for the impacts of minimum wage increases as it's a sector that's already heavily dominated by the mega national chains.

 

[Bradskii]

The Walmarts and Targets of the world can more easily absorb those increases than smaller businesses can.

So while the economy can and will "adjust" to the increase, it'll likely be in the form of the mega Corps taking a bigger slice of the pie than they already have.

Fast food is a particularly bad case study for the impacts of minimum wage increases as it's a sector that's already heavily dominated by the mega national chains.

That's generally correct. But if you want to go head to head with a McDonalds or a Subway then you have to offer something that the people would prefer. In a low income neighbourhood then a Target might be what's best and you'd be an idiot opening an antique store. I personally wouldn't eat a Big Mac if they were giving them away - and we have one near me. I'd prefer to spend the extra a get some decent food.

That's what business is all about. Pay your workers a living wage and produce something that people will pay for. If you can't afford to pay a living wage then you can't go into business. If you do and people like what you sell then you'll do well. It's really that simple.

 

[probinson]

Ah. You didn't get help so why should anyone else.

What a weird, some might say intentional, misinterpretation of what I said.

Do you think these folks are also going to ask their banks to forgive their mortgage?

Why would you forgive one type of debt but not another? What's the justification here? Why give affluent borrowers a break? Oh, you didn't know that's who is helped most by student loan forgiveness? Take a look:

The research found that blanket forgiveness options, such as canceling $10,000 or even all student debt, help high-income borrowers more than low-income ones. For example, full forgiveness would distribute about $190 billion to the top 20 percent of earners and only about $30 billion to the bottom 20 percent. ​

​

“The main takeaway was that universal loan forgiveness is a regressive policy. Most of the benefits go to individuals who are at the top of the income distribution,” said Constantine Yannelis, one of the study’s authors and an associate professor of finance at the University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business.​

​

Interactive: Canceling 10K of Student Debt Will Help Wealthy, White the Most

Blanket student loan forgiveness options are less effective in helping those who need it, data shows

www.nbcnewyork.com

​

I mean THAT is a hypothetical since the many of them are priced out of likely ever owning a home.

You're mistaken. Student loan forgiveness would help wealthy, white borrowers the most. I'm sure they'll be able to find a home. And maybe some day, some politician will come along to forgive their mortgage in an effort to buy their vote help their "hardship".

 

[probinson]

We're talking community colleges.

Thanks for clarifying.

Nobody expects Yale to be free.

Well, I don't know about that. I'm sure someone expects for all college to be "free".

And the term was not free. It was debt-free. You don't make college so expensive that you have to go deep into debt to pay for it. From here: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/09/democrats-spending-plan-could-make-free-college-a-reality.html

As I said, there is certainly a compromise between soul-crushing debt and "free".

A good idea would be to increase the number of apprenticeships available. Not everyone needs to go to college. Reduce the number of courses that lead nowhere. Increase courses that lead people in jobs that will benefit the country. Adjust the cost of courses to encourage people to take the latter.

These sound like common-sense approaches that might actually mitigate out-of-control student loan debt.

 

[Hammster]

But you've rejected one and accepted the other. You do know your posts don't disappear into the ether once someone has read them:



We'll take the first in lieu of the second. Thanks.

I don’t support socialized medicine.

 

[BCP1928]

I don’t support socialized medicine.

Are you going to turn down Medicare when you get to be of that age?

 

[Hammster]

Are you going to turn down Medicare when you get to be of that age?

Probably not.

 

[bèlla]

Are you going to turn down Medicare when you get to be of that age?

Of course not. He's earned it and heaven help them if social security isn't there. The ludicrous part of that reasoning is while he's thumbing his nose at "freebies" others are doing the same at his "entitlements."

We don't want to be obligated to fund either. Now what? Why should I fund a service I'll never use? That's the other side of this no one considers. If we can pick and choose what we support many will be left holding the bag. Including him.

~bella

 

[Hammster]

Of course not. He's earned it and heaven help them if social security isn't there. The ludicrous part of that reasoning is while he's thumbing his nose at "freebies" others are doing the same at his "entitlements."

We don't want to be obligated to fund either. Now what? Why should I fund a service I'll never use? That's the other side of this no one considers. If we can pick and choose what we support many will be left holding the bag. Including him.

~bella

Instead of trying to figure out what I’m thinking, and doing so in an Insulting way, maybe you should ask. That way you might avoid embarrassing statements.

 

[bèlla]

Instead of trying to figure out what I’m thinking, and doing so in an Insulting way, maybe you should ask. That way you might avoid embarrassing statements.

You answered the question for another and my assumption was correct. I don't need to know what you're thinking. You aren't the first to say these things or the last.

I was demonstrating the danger of picking and choosing. You don't want loan forgiveness and that's fine. But we can raise the stakes and touch something else. Like social security and medicare. Now what?

Did the Lord say we had to fund that?

~bella

 

[Hammster]

You answered the question for another and my assumption was correct. I don't need to know what you're thinking. You aren't the first to say these things or the last.

I was demonstrating the danger of picking and choosing. You don't want loan forgiveness and that's fine. But we can raise the stakes and touch something else. Like social security and medicare. Now what?

Did the Lord say we had to fund that?

~bella

So you are sticking with saying embarrassing things. Okay.

 

[bèlla]

So you are sticking with saying embarrassing things. Okay.

@rambot posed the following question in post 121.

Oh! So you don't want to help just anyone who needs help. You only want to help the people that God obliges you to help.

You responded on post #127 Exactly. Your position is clear.

@BCP1928 presented another in post #153 and asked:

Are you going to turn down Medicare when you get to be of that age?

And you replied Probably not on post #154.

In light of your example, I posited the same towards a different benefit. One which you've acknowledged you'll probably use in the future. That's also the subject of controversy and a growing demographic of citizens who don't wish to participate.

I went in a direction you didn't anticipate that wasn't speculative. Which begs the question once more. Are we obligated to support social security social and medicare by God?

You've shown us the way through your position on student loans and mentioned food stamps earlier. Why stop there? We could recover a lot by following suit.

~bella

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That's what business is all about. Pay your workers a living wage and produce something that people will pay for. If you can't afford to pay a living wage then you can't go into business. If you do and people like what you sell then you'll do well. It's really that simple.

Actually, I'd argue that business is about making money satisfying a want or need, it's the competition factor that would dictate wages. For instance, if I wanted to beat the other company in my same sector, I'd want the better employees, which means I'd have to offer a better compensation package to get them so the other company didn't.

Paying workers a certain wage is secondary.

In terms of "leveling the playing field", id prefer the approach Milton Friedman advocated for, which was something known as the "negative income tax"

Negative income tax - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org