The Eschatology of Israel

[WordSword]

The Eschatology of Israel​

It sounds crazy to teach what is in this post, but it’s just what I believe personally, after two and a half decades of Biblical research. Many attempt to relate Jer 31:31-33; Eze 36:25-27 to Jews who convert to Christianity, but it's actually a new covenant for Israel which will still involve "law" (Jer 31:33), "statutes and judgments" (Eze 36:27), and "ordinances" (Eze 11:20). Besides, the Christians final and New Covenant is the "Covenant of Redemption" which is not a covenant between God and man, like Israel's coming New Covenant, but is between the Father and the Son; with the Father raising Him to save believers. Many Jews truly love God and He them!

It is my belief that there will be two groups of people who shall be saved: those who believe in the Lord Jesus, and the Jews who do not believe in the Lord Jesus, but believe in God (Jn 14:1 – “Ye believe in God” KJV). Those believing in Christ will inherit the New Heaven; those believing in God only, inherit the New Earth, the final “promise” of inheriting the “land.” Scripture always speaks of the Jews inheriting the “Land” (New Earth). Jews who desire to inherit the New Heaven must believe in the Lord Jesus or they cannot enter here.

I do not think it easy, especially of being sure, that God would abandon His “people” after four millennia of Him working with them, repetitiously bringing them back to Himself after continuous straying. I say “straying” because this type of disobedience doesn’t detract their belief in Him, and there is much ignorance in their disobedience, and is why God will never fail to restore them to fellowship. Presently Israel is out of fellowship with God for not believing in His Son, but will never be out of union with Him. Their belief in God gains them union with Him; their obedience to God gains them also fellowship with Him!

It’s my belief that God will not abandon Israel after four millennia now of dealing with restoring them back to Himself after straying; not in unbelief, but disobedience. The Jews who will be in unbelief will perish (Rom 11:20; Heb 3:19; 4:6), along with the non-Christian Gentiles.

He will finally restore Israel’s fellowship to Himself, this time “causing” them to be obedient (Eze 36:27); same as the born again saint being caused to “please” God (Phil 2:13). Presently, Israel is not in fellowship with God for disbelieving in His Son, but will finally restore them to fellowship after seeing the Lord Jesus at the rapture. But those who do not believe in Christ before they see Him will miss the “blessing” (Jn 20:29) of inheriting the New Heaven; but God’s plan is that His people Israel will inherit the New Earth, and the Christians inherit the New Heaven—ruling with the Lord Jesus over the New Earth.

Most will not understand these teachings because they will never be taught as common doctrine. It’s also my belief that God is so protective of Israel—His “people,” to the point that most of the teachings of Israel’s eschatology requires much Scriptural-inference to determine their understanding.
NC

 

[Josheb]

Why is this op n the soteriology board?

 

[Josheb]

The Eschatology of Israel​

It sounds crazy to teach what is in this post, but it’s just what I believe personally, after two and a half decades of Biblical research. Many attempt to relate Jer 31:31-33; Eze 36:25-27 to Jews who convert to Christianity, but it's actually a new covenant for Israel which will still involve "law" (Jer 31:33), "statutes and judgments" (Eze 36:27), and "ordinances" (Eze 11:20). Besides, the Christians final and New Covenant is the "Covenant of Redemption" which is not a covenant between God and man, like Israel's coming New Covenant, but is between the Father and the Son; with the Father raising Him to save believers. Many Jews truly love God and He them!

It is my belief that there will be two groups of people who shall be saved: those who believe in the Lord Jesus, and the Jews who do not believe in the Lord Jesus, but believe in God (Jn 14:1 – “Ye believe in God” KJV). Those believing in Christ will inherit the New Heaven; those believing in God only, inherit the New Earth, the final “promise” of inheriting the “land.” Scripture always speaks of the Jews inheriting the “Land” (New Earth). Jews who desire to inherit the New Heaven must believe in the Lord Jesus or they cannot enter here.

None of this is new. Dispensational Premillennialism has been asserting this point of view for nearly 200 years. Scores of books are written on the two-peoples, two-purposes, two-covenants eschatology.

It is crazy. It doesn't just "sound" crazy; it is.

This is a Christian forum. This board, the Soteriology board, is a board specifically designated for discussing Christian theology specifically with and among other Christians. In other words, Christian eschatology is being discussed, and Christian soteriology is being discussed in a Christian discussion forum. This board has specified sections for discussing the views of other religions. In other words, whether intended or not, this op asserts a Jewish eschatology in a Christian soteriology board.

Why? Why have you chosen to do this?

That is not asked with any snark. I would like a sincere, genuine, and forthcoming answer. That kind of answer will be appreciated, and I will explicitly express my appreciation for such an answer and discuss that answer with you op-relevantly.

 

[WordSword]

Why is this op n the soteriology board?

I always want to post my material all together, to ensure one will not be missed.

 

[Josheb]

The Eschatology of Israel​

It sounds crazy to teach what is in this post, but it’s just what I believe personally, after two and a half decades of Biblical research. Many attempt to relate Jer 31:31-33; Eze 36:25-27 to Jews who convert to Christianity, but it's actually a new covenant for Israel which will still involve "law" (Jer 31:33), "statutes and judgments" (Eze 36:27), and "ordinances" (Eze 11:20). Besides, the Christians final and New Covenant is the "Covenant of Redemption" which is not a covenant between God and man, like Israel's coming New Covenant, but is between the Father and the Son; with the Father raising Him to save believers. Many Jews truly love God and He them!

It is my belief that there will be two groups of people who shall be saved: those who believe in the Lord Jesus, and the Jews who do not believe in the Lord Jesus, but believe in God (Jn 14:1 – “Ye believe in God” KJV). Those believing in Christ will inherit the New Heaven; those believing in God only, inherit the New Earth, the final “promise” of inheriting the “land.” Scripture always speaks of the Jews inheriting the “Land” (New Earth). Jews who desire to inherit the New Heaven must believe in the Lord Jesus or they cannot enter here.

I do not think it easy, especially of being sure, that God would abandon His “people” after four millennia of Him working with them, repetitiously bringing them back to Himself after continuous straying. I say “straying” because this type of disobedience doesn’t detract their belief in Him, and there is much ignorance in their disobedience, and is why God will never fail to restore them to fellowship. Presently Israel is out of fellowship with God for not believing in His Son, but will never be out of union with Him. Their belief in God gains them union with Him; their obedience to God gains them also fellowship with Him!

It’s my belief that God will not abandon Israel after four millennia now of dealing with restoring them back to Himself after straying; not in unbelief, but disobedience. The Jews who will be in unbelief will perish (Rom 11:20; Heb 3:19; 4:6), along with the non-Christian Gentiles.

He will finally restore Israel’s fellowship to Himself, this time “causing” them to be obedient (Eze 36:27); same as the born again saint being caused to “please” God (Phil 2:13). Presently, Israel is not in fellowship with God for disbelieving in His Son, but will finally restore them to fellowship after seeing the Lord Jesus at the rapture. But those who do not believe in Christ before they see Him will miss the “blessing” (Jn 20:29) of inheriting the New Heaven; but God’s plan is that His people Israel will inherit the New Earth, and the Christians inherit the New Heaven—ruling with the Lord Jesus over the New Earth.

Most will not understand these teachings because they will never be taught as common doctrine. It’s also my belief that God is so protective of Israel—His “people,” to the point that most of the teachings of Israel’s eschatology requires much Scriptural-inference to determine their understanding.
NC

Are you aware only the modern futurisms that were invented in the 19th century believe Israel is relevant to Christian eschatology?

Have you studied any of the other prevalent models in depth? Can you give me a brief description of what Historical Premillennial, Amillennial, Postmillennial, and Idealist authors you've read? I ask because it will help us both to know something of what we each have learned. For my part, I've spent the last three decades studying scripture, reading the ECFs, studying the history of how our Christian eschatologies have developed, reading the prominent proponents of each point of view in their own words (not just their critics), and especially devoted much of my time and energy to reading prominent the Dispensationalists'.

Are you aware there are some, like Geerhardus Vos and N. T. Wright (neither of whom are modern futurists) who have written substantively about the overlap between soteriology and eschatology?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

The Eschatology of Israel​

It sounds crazy to teach what is in this post, but it’s just what I believe personally, after two and a half decades of Biblical research. Many attempt to relate Jer 31:31-33; Eze 36:25-27 to Jews who convert to Christianity, but it's actually a new covenant for Israel which will still involve "law" (Jer 31:33), "statutes and judgments" (Eze 36:27), and "ordinances" (Eze 11:20). Besides, the Christians final and New Covenant is the "Covenant of Redemption" which is not a covenant between God and man, like Israel's coming New Covenant, but is between the Father and the Son; with the Father raising Him to save believers. Many Jews truly love God and He them!

It is my belief that there will be two groups of people who shall be saved: those who believe in the Lord Jesus, and the Jews who do not believe in the Lord Jesus, but believe in God (Jn 14:1 – “Ye believe in God” KJV). Those believing in Christ will inherit the New Heaven; those believing in God only, inherit the New Earth, the final “promise” of inheriting the “land.” Scripture always speaks of the Jews inheriting the “Land” (New Earth). Jews who desire to inherit the New Heaven must believe in the Lord Jesus or they cannot enter here.

I do not think it easy, especially of being sure, that God would abandon His “people” after four millennia of Him working with them, repetitiously bringing them back to Himself after continuous straying. I say “straying” because this type of disobedience doesn’t detract their belief in Him, and there is much ignorance in their disobedience, and is why God will never fail to restore them to fellowship. Presently Israel is out of fellowship with God for not believing in His Son, but will never be out of union with Him. Their belief in God gains them union with Him; their obedience to God gains them also fellowship with Him!

It’s my belief that God will not abandon Israel after four millennia now of dealing with restoring them back to Himself after straying; not in unbelief, but disobedience. The Jews who will be in unbelief will perish (Rom 11:20; Heb 3:19; 4:6), along with the non-Christian Gentiles.

He will finally restore Israel’s fellowship to Himself, this time “causing” them to be obedient (Eze 36:27); same as the born again saint being caused to “please” God (Phil 2:13). Presently, Israel is not in fellowship with God for disbelieving in His Son, but will finally restore them to fellowship after seeing the Lord Jesus at the rapture. But those who do not believe in Christ before they see Him will miss the “blessing” (Jn 20:29) of inheriting the New Heaven; but God’s plan is that His people Israel will inherit the New Earth, and the Christians inherit the New Heaven—ruling with the Lord Jesus over the New Earth.

Most will not understand these teachings because they will never be taught as common doctrine. It’s also my belief that God is so protective of Israel—His “people,” to the point that most of the teachings of Israel’s eschatology requires much Scriptural-inference to determine their understanding.
NC

The only way to Heaven is to believing in Jesus Christ.

Yes, there are elect in Israel who will be saved, one third according to Zechariah, but they'll be saved by the same grace as everyone else, through faith in Christ alone.

Zechariah 12 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

 

[Josheb]

Most will not understand these teachings because they will never be taught as common doctrine.​

Do you understand what you just told all the readers is you claim to understand something most do not? You've just elevated yourself above most others and created a trap for everyone who might disagree because you can now appeal to, "You just don't understand (and should listen to me because I do)"? Do you think it wise and effective to marginalize "most" this way?

More importantly, As the discussion of this thread unfolds are you able to keep the posts about the posts and not the posters?

 

[Josheb]

The only way to Heaven is to believing in Jesus Christ.

Absolutely, 100% correct.

Unblessedly, there is a large swath of Christians who are taught there are two means of salvation. Ones is salvation by grace through faith and the other is salvation by grace through faith and works. Many modern futurists (which would include many Zionists) don't realize that is what their eschatology teaches and resist seeing it. Simply put, if Jews in Israel must regain all their land back, build another temple, establish another monarchy, reconstitute the Levitical priesthood, reinstitute animal sacrifices before coming to faith in Christ then this is a works-based soteriology.

No one in modern futurism talks about this but that is the logically necessary and inescapable conclusion of expecting Jews to do any of those things prior to coming to Christ by grace through faith.

The ONLY way to heaven is to believe in Jesus, the resurrected and ascended So of God. There are no Jews or Gentiles in Christ.

 

[Josheb]

I always want to post my material all together, to ensure one will not be missed.

Hmmmm...

"I always want to post my material all together ignoring and violating the terms of use to which I agreed when I joined the forum, to ensure one will not be missed (because I don't want anyone to miss my posts)"?

Is that what we're to understand?


I'll work with this op in this board, but in light of its title contradicting the board's purpose you've already established indefensible mistakes for yourself. We're Christians, not Jews. Christian eschatology has nothing to do with Jewish eschatology and any hint of Judaization of Christian eschatology can readily be addressed..... if you have the ability to discuss that, but it's going to reveal other problems. There's no such thing as "Jewish Eschatology" in the Bible. The Bible speaks with one voice, as a whole, on all matters. There is a foundational, a presuppositional error inherent in the op. The existence of a Jewish eschatology has been asserted as a given when it should first be proven.

Much of Judaism was and remains wrong. Jesus (and all the NT writers) chronically corrected the Jewish understanding of things. This is observable every time Jesus says, "You have heard it said _______________________, but I say, (and then he proceeds to provide a correct, restored understanding of Tanakh) ."

• Tanakh is always correct.
• Judaism is often wrong.

Keep that in mind as the thread unfolds. And tell me, are you Dispensationalist (do you know that theology and is that the context within which we should be reading and understanding your posts)?

 

[eleos1954]

The Eschatology of Israel​

It sounds crazy to teach what is in this post, but it’s just what I believe personally, after two and a half decades of Biblical research. Many attempt to relate Jer 31:31-33; Eze 36:25-27 to Jews who convert to Christianity, but it's actually a new covenant for Israel which will still involve "law" (Jer 31:33), "statutes and judgments" (Eze 36:27), and "ordinances" (Eze 11:20). Besides, the Christians final and New Covenant is the "Covenant of Redemption" which is not a covenant between God and man, like Israel's coming New Covenant, but is between the Father and the Son; with the Father raising Him to save believers. Many Jews truly love God and He them!

It is my belief that there will be two groups of people who shall be saved: those who believe in the Lord Jesus, and the Jews who do not believe in the Lord Jesus, but believe in God (Jn 14:1 – “Ye believe in God” KJV). Those believing in Christ will inherit the New Heaven; those believing in God only, inherit the New Earth, the final “promise” of inheriting the “land.” Scripture always speaks of the Jews inheriting the “Land” (New Earth). Jews who desire to inherit the New Heaven must believe in the Lord Jesus or they cannot enter here.

I do not think it easy, especially of being sure, that God would abandon His “people” after four millennia of Him working with them, repetitiously bringing them back to Himself after continuous straying. I say “straying” because this type of disobedience doesn’t detract their belief in Him, and there is much ignorance in their disobedience, and is why God will never fail to restore them to fellowship. Presently Israel is out of fellowship with God for not believing in His Son, but will never be out of union with Him. Their belief in God gains them union with Him; their obedience to God gains them also fellowship with Him!

It’s my belief that God will not abandon Israel after four millennia now of dealing with restoring them back to Himself after straying; not in unbelief, but disobedience. The Jews who will be in unbelief will perish (Rom 11:20; Heb 3:19; 4:6), along with the non-Christian Gentiles.

He will finally restore Israel’s fellowship to Himself, this time “causing” them to be obedient (Eze 36:27); same as the born again saint being caused to “please” God (Phil 2:13). Presently, Israel is not in fellowship with God for disbelieving in His Son, but will finally restore them to fellowship after seeing the Lord Jesus at the rapture. But those who do not believe in Christ before they see Him will miss the “blessing” (Jn 20:29) of inheriting the New Heaven; but God’s plan is that His people Israel will inherit the New Earth, and the Christians inherit the New Heaven—ruling with the Lord Jesus over the New Earth.

Most will not understand these teachings because they will never be taught as common doctrine. It’s also my belief that God is so protective of Israel—His “people,” to the point that most of the teachings of Israel’s eschatology requires much Scriptural-inference to determine their understanding.
NC

It's not about the jews .... it's about those in Christ ... the door of salvation is open to all (including the jews) who will come to Jesus until Jesus returns. His people are those in Christ ... not any particular ethnic group.

As Jesus says .... it will be like in the days of Noah (no ethnic groups involved) most were wicked and evil ... except for the small group (Noahs family) the Lord pronounced judgement on earth's inhabitants ... He saved the small group and destroyed all the wicked and evil with the flood.

So it will be once again.

 

[WordSword]

Are you aware only the modern futurisms that were invented in the 19th century believe Israel is relevant to Christian eschatology?

Hi, and appreciate your replies! Concerning Israel and Christians, they are separate entities. Most Jews don't believe in the Lord Jesus, and the two companies have nothing in common except God.

 

[WordSword]

Do you understand what you just told all the readers is you claim to understand something most do not? You've just elevated yourself above most others and created a trap for everyone who might disagree because you can now appeal to, "You just don't understand (and should listen to me because I do)"? Do you think it wise and effective to marginalize "most" this way?

More importantly, As the discussion of this thread unfolds are you able to keep the posts about the posts and not the posters?

I don't know how to answer you yet because it's difficult to reply with your excessive accusations.

 

[WordSword]

It's not about the jews .... it's about those in Christ ... the door of salvation is open to all (including the jews) who will come to Jesus until Jesus returns. His people are those in Christ ... not any particular ethnic group.

Hi, and thanks for your reply! I wouldn't think that God is going to allow the Jews that believe in Him perish! It's my understanding that majority of the Jews believe in God.

 

[Josheb]

Hi, and appreciate your replies! Concerning Israel and Christians, they are separate entities.

Then why does the New Testament 1) describe the ecclesia with the exact same labels and attributes as Israel and 2) state both groups are branches of the exact same tree that is Jesus.

And which Israel are you talking about. The Israel that is Israel or the Israel that is not Israel?

Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel.

Not all Israel is Israel. Which Israel are you talking about? Because if the Israel that is not Israel is being conflated with the Israel that is Israel, then that is a huge mistake both scripturally and logically. According to Paul it is only the Israel of promise and NOT the Israel of flesh that is Israel.

Most Jews don't believe in the Lord Jesus, and the two companies have nothing in common except God.

They do not even have that in common because they God in whom they believe is not the God who stood before them commanding the elements of creation, commanding demons, healing people of their infirmities, and paying the price for sin.

John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, “We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”


As I stated earlier: Tanakh is always correct. Judaism is often wrong.

 

[Josheb]

I don't know how to answer you yet because it's difficult to reply with your excessive accusations.

How about just telling me and the others if you have studied the other more historical and orthodox end-times views and done so in the words of their leading proponents (rather than only their critics). Surely that is not too difficult to answer.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Hi, and thanks for your reply! I wouldn't think that God is going to allow the Jews that believe in Him perish! It's my understanding that majority of the Jews believe in God.

Your understanding is flawed. Even the demons believe in God and they shudder (tremble).

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

If someone doesn't know Jesus Christ then they don't know God the Father.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. 27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

 

[WordSword]

No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Israel doesn't know God as their Father because you have to be in Christ to inherit sonship. They are only known as the "people of God."

 

[WordSword]

Even the demons believe in God and they shudder (tremble).

The demons believe there is only one God, and not many gods; but this is not referring to salvation.

 

[Clare73]

None of this is new. Dispensational Premillennialism has been asserting this point of view for nearly 200 years. Scores of books are written on the two-peoples, two-purposes, two-covenants eschatology.

And that's in addition to duplicating other events; i.e., the same event before and after the tribulation:
two second comings,
two first resurrections,
two last trumpets,
two bodies of Christ,
two temporal Messianic kingdoms,
two final world battles,
two final judgments.

Because it teaches an extra coming of Christ ("before" the tribulation) which the Bible does not teach, it must multiply events and things which are the same so as not to contradict the Bible's location of these events with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Church age (tribulation).

It is crazy. It doesn't just "sound" crazy; it is.

This is a Christian forum. This board, the Soteriology board, is a board specifically designated for discussing Christian theology specifically with and among other Christians. In other words, Christian eschatology is being discussed, and Christian soteriology is being discussed in a Christian discussion forum. This board has specified sections for discussing the views of other religions. In other words, whether intended or not, this op asserts a Jewish eschatology in a Christian soteriology board.

Why? Why have you chosen to do this?

That is not asked with any snark. I would like a sincere, genuine, and forthcoming answer. That kind of answer will be appreciated, and I will explicitly express my appreciation for such an answer and discuss that answer with you op-relevantly.

 

[Josheb]

And that's in addition to duplicating other events.......... Because it teaches an extra coming of Christ......

Oh, it's worse than that. Modern futurism has Jesus going back and forth to earth multiple times all under the auspices of one "second coming" (a phrase, btw, that is nowhere found in scripture). If it is (correctly) pointed out that Revelation 19 and 20 do not anywhere explicitly state Jesus is physically on earth subterfuge ensues instead of a simple, direct, forthcoming, "That is true, but we read an earthly presence into the scripture because our eschatology tells us to do so." It's not because Revelation explicitly states, "Jesus left heaven and came to earth during that event." If the facts of Revelation are elaborated on to say, "Nowhere does the entire book of Revelation explicitly state Jesus is physically living on earth until chapters 21-22," the same deceit ensues.

More fundamentally, Jewish eschatology is not Christian eschatology, and Christian eschatology should not be Judaized, but modern futurists chronically do so.