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Israel and Eschatology

9Rock9

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I'm currently undecided about my eschatological view. I'm leaning towards premillennialism currently, but it's not a strong lean as I am open to amillennialism.

One of the hang ups I have is about Israel:


I believe there is only ONE people of God, and ONE way to salvation. God does not have two separate peoples, nor two plans for salvation. This means that Jewish people must still accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

That said, I agree with premillennialism in that Satan is not currently bound and is still deceiving the world. I do think his power has been limited somewhat, but not to the extent portrayed in Revelation.

I also believe that the Church began at Pentecost, like what dispensationalists teach. There is no Church in the OT, but there is a spiritual Israel. The Church is just the form spiritual Israel takes in the NT. The OT Israel was entirely Jewish, while the NT Israel is predominantly Gentile.

I believe that, while the Jews have been cut off, they will one day be grafted back in. I still think there will be a future restoration of a Jewish kingdom in the Near East. So, Israel, while currently still cut off and in denial of the Messiah, still fulfills biblical prophecy, or at least lead to the fulfillment of prophecy.

I'm not sure if this makes me a progressive dispesationalist, a historic premillennialism, or something else.
 

AlexB23

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I'm currently undecided about my eschatological view. I'm leaning towards premillennialism currently, but it's not a strong lean as I am open to amillennialism.

One of the hang ups I have is about Israel:


I believe there is only ONE people of God, and ONE way to salvation. God does not have two separate peoples, nor two plans for salvation. This means that Jewish people must still accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

That said, I agree with premillennialism in that Satan is not currently bound and is still deceiving the world. I do think his power has been limited somewhat, but not to the extent portrayed in Revelation.

I also believe that the Church began at Pentecost, like what dispensationalists teach. There is no Church in the OT, but there is a spiritual Israel. The Church is just the form spiritual Israel takes in the NT. The OT Israel was entirely Jewish, while the NT Israel is predominantly Gentile.

I believe that, while the Jews have been cut off, they will one day be grafted back in. I still think there will be a future restoration of a Jewish kingdom in the Near East. So, Israel, while currently still cut off and in denial of the Messiah, still fulfills biblical prophecy, or at least lead to the fulfillment of prophecy.

I'm not sure if this makes me a progressive dispesationalist, a historic premillennialism, or something else.
For myself, I believe that 1948-1967 marks a moment where the fig tree blooms. We need to convert Jewish folks to Christianity. The Tribulation is sometime in the future, maybe within a lifetime of 1967.
 
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AlexB23

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@Vambram , what are your thoughts about Israel and the End Times? I feel that when there is a rise of antisemitism on the far-left, and on the far-right around the world, that goes to show how Israel has always been persecuted, since Moses' time, and it will sadly get worse.

Persecution of Israel in Moses' Time

Deuteronomy 28:65-67 (NKJV): "And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. In the morning you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were morning!’ because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see."
 
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Vambram

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I'm currently undecided about my eschatological view. I'm leaning towards premillennialism currently, but it's not a strong lean as I am open to amillennialism.

One of the hang ups I have is about Israel:


I believe there is only ONE people of God, and ONE way to salvation. God does not have two separate peoples, nor two plans for salvation. This means that Jewish people must still accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

That said, I agree with premillennialism in that Satan is not currently bound and is still deceiving the world. I do think his power has been limited somewhat, but not to the extent portrayed in Revelation.

I also believe that the Church began at Pentecost, like what dispensationalists teach. There is no Church in the OT, but there is a spiritual Israel. The Church is just the form spiritual Israel takes in the NT. The OT Israel was entirely Jewish, while the NT Israel is predominantly Gentile.

I believe that, while the Jews have been cut off, they will one day be grafted back in. I still think there will be a future restoration of a Jewish kingdom in the Near East. So, Israel, while currently still cut off and in denial of the Messiah, still fulfills biblical prophecy, or at least lead to the fulfillment of prophecy.

I'm not sure if this makes me a progressive dispesationalist, a historic premillennialism, or something else.
I believe that there have been seven different dispensations in human history. As for eschatology, I believe that the Rapture of the Church will occur before the 7 year Tribulation period. During this Tribulation, millions of Jews will accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and Savior, thus grafting them back in. I believe that the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ will occur at the end of the 7 year Tribulation. Then the Lord Jesus will set up His millennial kingdom to reign for a thousand years. I believe in the pre-tribulational Rapture of the Church and the pre-millennial Return of the Lord Jesus Christ for His Second Coming.
 
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Vambram

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@Vambram , what are your thoughts about Israel and the End Times? I feel that when there is a rise of antisemitism on the far-left, and on the far-right around the world, that goes to show how Israel has always been persecuted, since Moses' time, and it will sadly get worse.

Persecution of Israel in Moses' Time

Deuteronomy 28:65-67 (NKJV): "And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. In the morning you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were morning!’ because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see."
I believe that the pre-tribulational Rapture of the Church could happen at any time. In my view, the Lord's coming at the Rapture is imminent and that no further prophecies need to be fulfilled before the Rapture. I have held this eschatological viewpoint ever since 1980.
 
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AlexB23

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I believe that the pre-tribulational Rapture of the Church could happen at any time. In my view, the Lord's coming at the Rapture is imminent and that no further prophecies need to be fulfilled before the Rapture. I have held this eschatological viewpoint ever since 1980.
So, you believe that the rapture could happen any time before the Trib? My guy, @fli believe in a mid-Trib rapture. Regardless of when the rapture happens, we will live in a world with far more persecution in the future compared to in the past until Jesus returns.

Also, I'd rather live in the 1980s, when times were simpler, though the NIV version was not as big back then. The online NIV along with this forum and a bit of AI have helped me understand the more confusing parts of the Bible. Which Bible version did you use back in 1980? For myself, I typically use the NIV, NKJV and NRSV-CE, with the ESV and KJV every once in a while (all online Bibles on biblegateway.com, and I use a topical ESV bible on openbible.info).
 
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Vambram

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So, you believe that the rapture could happen any time before the Trib? My guy, @fli believe in a mid-Trib rapture. Regardless of when the rapture happens, we will live in a world with far more persecution in the future compared to in the past until Jesus returns.

Also, I'd rather live in the 1980s, when times were simpler, though the NIV version was not as big back then. The online NIV along with this forum and a bit of AI have helped me understand the more confusing parts of the Bible. Which Bible version did you use back in 1980? For myself, I typically use the NIV, NKJV and NRSV-CE, with the ESV and KJV every once in a while (all online Bibles on biblegateway.com, and I use a topical ESV bible on openbible.info).
In 1980, the only version of the Bible I used was the KJV. Then, in 1986, I started using the NKJV Bible. Those two remain the translations I use the most. However, about 15 years ago, I have also started using the ESV on a regular basis as well.
 
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AlexB23

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In 1980, the only version of the Bible I used was the KJV. Then, in 1986, I started using the NKJV Bible. Those two remain the translations I use the most. However, about 15 years ago, I have also started using the ESV on a regular basis as well.
Nice, I love the NKJV Bible. The ESV is also good. Most Christians probably started out with the KJV, and it can be very difficult for younger folks to get into, so God bless the NKJV publisher for making the Bible understandable for the 20th and 21st century readers.

Apparently, the Gideons International organization (formed in 1899 in the great state of Wisconsin, but moved to Tennessee) placed the NKJV and KJV in US hotels, but nowadays puts KJV and ESV Bibles in hotels. It is great how weary travelers could have access to Bibles. :)

Source:
 
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RandyPNW

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I'm currently undecided about my eschatological view. I'm leaning towards premillennialism currently, but it's not a strong lean as I am open to amillennialism.

One of the hang ups I have is about Israel:


I believe there is only ONE people of God, and ONE way to salvation. God does not have two separate peoples, nor two plans for salvation. This means that Jewish people must still accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

That said, I agree with premillennialism in that Satan is not currently bound and is still deceiving the world. I do think his power has been limited somewhat, but not to the extent portrayed in Revelation.

I also believe that the Church began at Pentecost, like what dispensationalists teach. There is no Church in the OT, but there is a spiritual Israel. The Church is just the form spiritual Israel takes in the NT. The OT Israel was entirely Jewish, while the NT Israel is predominantly Gentile.

I believe that, while the Jews have been cut off, they will one day be grafted back in. I still think there will be a future restoration of a Jewish kingdom in the Near East. So, Israel, while currently still cut off and in denial of the Messiah, still fulfills biblical prophecy, or at least lead to the fulfillment of prophecy.

I'm not sure if this makes me a progressive dispesationalist, a historic premillennialism, or something else.
It makes you a hybrid of sorts, and it's not bizarre. Amillennialists tend to be so primarily because they don't believe God saves nations--just individuals. Israel passed away, according to their theory--nations don't get saved.

Mind you, this is just my assessment. Early in Christian history, Premillennialism was a major eschatological position in the Church, until Israel seemed no longer viable as God's People. That's when Amillennialism came to dominate.

But in modern times, a belief in Israel's place in God's Kingdom has reemerged, in the 1800s with Darby's Dispensationalism and in particular after 1948, when Israel became a nation again. This "Futurism" actually began with Catholics Ribera and Lacunza, with Irving picking up on Lacunza's Futurism, and Darby extending this into a full-blown modern eschatology with Dispensationalism.

What is my position? I'm a Futurist in the mold of George E. Ladd, who was a Premillennial Futurist, but not a Dispensationalist nor a Pretribulationist.

I see no basis for a Pretribulational Rapture of the Church, before the Reign of Antichrist. But I do see a basis for a restoration of the nation Israel into God's good graces. I believe this will happen *after* the return of Christ.

This is why I believe in the Millennium. It is a period where nations can be restored to the faith they were called to. Israel will become a Christian nation. And Christian nations today, who are falling away, will be restored to their Christian faith.

Unlike Dispensationalists I do not place a premium on Israel in the Millennium as if Israel will be exalted over all nations. No, I think Israel will join the company of Christian nations, and then will enjoy a unity of faith. The OT prophecies only emphasized Israel's final salvation because at that time only Israel was a nation of God.

So I believe God wishes to save nations and societies--not just individuals. This makes living in a society much better than living in a pagan culture with all of the problems that causes.

There have been many Christian nations in history. Israel can be restored to become one as well. But we do need restoration as Christian countries because the world is failing the faith it was given.
 
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keras

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`Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks (nations) or to the Church of God.` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

God created 3 groups and recognizes them there, (above scripture)
Actually, Paul refers to two ethnic groups, [Jews and Greeks] and the multi ethnic Church. The One holy people and all the rest.

Those who believe the Jewish State of Israel still has an inside track with God, simply haven't properly read their Bibles. Romans 2:27, Revelation 2:9
They face Judgment and only a remnant will survive. Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Romans 9:27

Of course these truths are glossed over by the rapture to heaven believers, as they have the fanciful desire to sit in heaven while God puts the Jews through tribulation. Many scriptures prove the Christians; Gods holy people, are still on earth and will see the Lord Jesus Return in glory.
 
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eleos1954

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I'm currently undecided about my eschatological view. I'm leaning towards premillennialism currently, but it's not a strong lean as I am open to amillennialism.

One of the hang ups I have is about Israel:


I believe there is only ONE people of God, and ONE way to salvation. God does not have two separate peoples, nor two plans for salvation. This means that Jewish people must still accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

That said, I agree with premillennialism in that Satan is not currently bound and is still deceiving the world. I do think his power has been limited somewhat, but not to the extent portrayed in Revelation.

I also believe that the Church began at Pentecost, like what dispensationalists teach. There is no Church in the OT, but there is a spiritual Israel. The Church is just the form spiritual Israel takes in the NT. The OT Israel was entirely Jewish, while the NT Israel is predominantly Gentile.

I believe that, while the Jews have been cut off, they will one day be grafted back in. I still think there will be a future restoration of a Jewish kingdom in the Near East. So, Israel, while currently still cut off and in denial of the Messiah, still fulfills biblical prophecy, or at least lead to the fulfillment of prophecy.

I'm not sure if this makes me a progressive dispesationalist, a historic premillennialism, or something else.
The door to salvation is open to anyone that comes to Him with a sincere heart .... those that do are His church ... they are the Israel of God.

It's not about the modern day country of Israel.

All prophecy has been and is fulfilled by Jesus .... everything needed for salvation happened when He died on Calvary.

Like in the days of Noah so says Jesus .... great evil was in the heart of man continuously and God sent a flood to destroy mankind ... but left a small remnant ... so it will be once again .. things will get more and more evil in our world ... and He will return ... and when He does great destruction will happen .... but this is not the full end.
 
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Douggg

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I'm currently undecided about my eschatological view. I'm leaning towards premillennialism currently, but it's not a strong lean as I am open to amillennialism.

One of the hang ups I have is about Israel:


I believe there is only ONE people of God, and ONE way to salvation. God does not have two separate peoples, nor two plans for salvation. This means that Jewish people must still accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

That said, I agree with premillennialism in that Satan is not currently bound and is still deceiving the world. I do think his power has been limited somewhat, but not to the extent portrayed in Revelation.

I also believe that the Church began at Pentecost, like what dispensationalists teach. There is no Church in the OT, but there is a spiritual Israel. The Church is just the form spiritual Israel takes in the NT. The OT Israel was entirely Jewish, while the NT Israel is predominantly Gentile.

I believe that, while the Jews have been cut off, they will one day be grafted back in. I still think there will be a future restoration of a Jewish kingdom in the Near East. So, Israel, while currently still cut off and in denial of the Messiah, still fulfills biblical prophecy, or at least lead to the fulfillment of prophecy.

I'm not sure if this makes me a progressive dispesationalist, a historic premillennialism, or something else.
The majority of Jews are currently looking for the promised King of Israel messiah. (someone other than Jesus, who they rejected as their King of Israel messiah.)

They will mistakenly think the prince that shall come (Daniel 9:26) into the middle east following Gog/Magog will be that person. The false prophet of Revelation 13, who the Jews will mistakenly think is Elijah the prophet, will anoint the prince that shall come the King of Israel. Making the prince who shall come the Antichrist.

As the perceived King of Israel messiah, the person will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle that Moses required off all future leaders of Israel (Deuteronomy 31:9-13).

In the middle of the 7 years, the Antichrist will claim to have achieved God-hood. The Jews will be mortified. And will reject him as continuing as their King of Israel, perceived messiah.

Then shortly thereafter, in Revelation 12:10, the Jews will have turned to Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Here is a timeline chart I made of what is going to happen...




horiziontal chart July 23, 2020 .jpg
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I'm currently undecided about my eschatological view. I'm leaning towards premillennialism currently, but it's not a strong lean as I am open to amillennialism.
I'd like to share my understanding of amillennialism with you, if you don't mind. If so, do you have any particular questions about it that you'd like more details about or more clarification on?

One of the hang ups I have is about Israel:

I believe there is only ONE people of God, and ONE way to salvation. God does not have two separate peoples, nor two plans for salvation. This means that Jewish people must still accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved.
Yes, that is a dispensationalist belief, but scripture is very clear that God is not a respecter of persons and Jesus has brought Israelite and Gentile believers together as one.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

That said, I agree with premillennialism in that Satan is not currently bound and is still deceiving the world. I do think his power has been limited somewhat, but not to the extent portrayed in Revelation.
Okay, so let's talk about this a bit. I'm not sure if you fully understand what amillennialists believe about this, so I will give you my understanding of it. As I'm sure you probably know, not all amils believe everything exactly the same just as premils don't.

So, my approach to this is to compare what kind of power Satan had in OT times compared to NT times. The NT has a lot to say about this. People tend to focus on Satan going about like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour but in the very next verses after that it talks about the authority we have over him as Christians and that often gets missed.

1 Peter 5:8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

What happens if we resist the devil?

James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

This kind of authority over Satan that NT believers have is unprecedented. OT saints had no such authority because they didn't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them like we do. Satan must back down and flee from us because of the present of the Holy Spirit in us.

Look at how Paul described the state of the Gentiles in OT times:

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

In OT times the Gentiles, for the most part (some exceptions here and there like the Ninevites and others), "were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world".

That all changed when Christ came, died and rose from the dead, right? A huge and dramatic change! Did this affect what Satan was able to do? Yes, in a major way!

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Acts 26:15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

So, because of Jesus's death and resurrection, Gentiles were no longer "without Christ...without hope, and without God in the world". No longer was Satan able to wield the power of death and keep people "in slavery by their fear of death" because of them having no hope for eternal life. I believe the binding of Satan relates directly to what Jesus did "to destroy the devil's work" while leading people "from the power of Satan to God".

In OT times not many people were saved. The Gentiles were mostly "without God in the world". But in NT times a multitude of people have been saved because of what Christ did for them. He defeated Satan and set the captives free! He bound Satan!

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26and if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27And if I by Beel´zebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else, how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Jesus came and entered the strong man's house, which means He came to this world, of which Satan is its god (2 Cor 4:4), and plundered it. He set many people free who Satan formerly held captive by their fear of death. Jesus bound Satan and took the power of death away from him (Hebrews 2:14-15).

I also believe that the Church began at Pentecost, like what dispensationalists teach. There is no Church in the OT, but there is a spiritual Israel. The Church is just the form spiritual Israel takes in the NT. The OT Israel was entirely Jewish, while the NT Israel is predominantly Gentile.
The church is simply a reference to God's congregation which has been around since OT times. What Jesus did was give the church a cornerstone (He is the cornerstone, of course) with the apostles and prophets being its foundation (Ephesians 2:19-22) and that made it so that the gates of hell can never prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). Regardless, we (Jew and Gentile believers) are now all one in the Church (body of Christ).

I believe that, while the Jews have been cut off, they will one day be grafted back in. I still think there will be a future restoration of a Jewish kingdom in the Near East. So, Israel, while currently still cut off and in denial of the Messiah, still fulfills biblical prophecy, or at least lead to the fulfillment of prophecy.
I think many make the mistake of missing the fact that not all Israelites were cut off. There was a remnant of saved Israelites with the rest being temporarily blinded (Romans 11:5-7) to fulfill God's purpose of bringing the gospel to the Gentiles who in turn would make the Israelites jealous and want to be saved in the same way Gentiles are. That process was happening back then and is still happening today.

Paul said Israel was blinded in part, not in full. That can't be missed. Also, the ones who were blinded were not blinded permanently, as Paul explained here:

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Dispensationalists act as if Paul said Israel fell beyond recovery and won't be recovered until some later time. But, that is not what he said at all. Instead, he said they stumbled, but not beyond recovery. He was talking about the ones who were blinded in his day. Notice in verse 14 above how he wanted to help save some of the ones who he said were blinded. Dispensationlism completely misses this! It says salvation for Israel has been postponed until a later time. Not true! Those unbelieving Israelites who had been temporarily blinded had the opportunity to be grafted in again and Paul helped some of them to be grafted in again (saved). So, Romans 11 needs to be understood from this ongoing perspective that began long ago instead of the futurist perspective of dispensationalism.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I'm currently undecided about my eschatological view. I'm leaning towards premillennialism currently, but it's not a strong lean as I am open to amillennialism.

One of the hang ups I have is about Israel:


I believe there is only ONE people of God, and ONE way to salvation. God does not have two separate peoples, nor two plans for salvation. This means that Jewish people must still accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

That said, I agree with premillennialism in that Satan is not currently bound and is still deceiving the world. I do think his power has been limited somewhat, but not to the extent portrayed in Revelation.

I too struggled with this whole issue. Here is where I landed. I moved from Premil to Amil because of this:

1. Satan is a spiritual being.
2. Spiritual chains restraint spiritual beings in Scripture.
3. Revelation is saturated in figurative language.
4. There is NO other Scripture that corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroyed.
5. Scripture teaches that Satan has already fell from heaven and now present in the Abyss (John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:9-13). Peter 2:4, Jude v 6 and Revelation 9:1-11 shows the demonic world in a current spiritually bound condition in the abyss.
6. Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.
 
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sovereigngrace

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`Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks (nations) or to the Church of God.` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

God created 3 groups and recognizes them there, (above scripture)

The Pretribbers take this innocuous passage in 1 Corinthians 10:32, which is simply speaking of eating and drinking onto idols, and build a whole elaborate eschatological theology around it. They do this to support their belief that there are three distinct peoples in this world.

This reading has absolutely nothing to do with categorizing the peoples of this world into three distinct spiritual groups, or is it anything to do with the second coming of Christ, or some supposed future seven-year tribulation. Rather, it is simply speaking of, and relating to, the subject of eating unto idols. This passage is in essence saying that believers must respect the eating customs of all, whether in our everyday life among the Jew and non-Jew (with their distinct customs) or whether among believers – the Church of Jesus Christ. We must eat as unto the Lord wherever we go, unless that food it is sacrificed unto idols (v28). 1 Corinthians 10:31-32 thus says, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.”

This passage separates unbelievers into two distinct groups Jews and Gentiles because they have two diametrically different systems of eating. This was the issue under discussion. That was why Paul divided the unbelievers. He is illustrating the fact that wherever you are among the brethren (the church of God) or outside among the unsaved (Jew or Gentile) “do all to the glory of God.” This passage is addressing a natural issue – albeit, it is for the purpose of outlining spiritual wisdom and truth. This reading is not suggesting or hinting at the notion that there are three types of people in God’s eyes. There isn’t! There are either saved or lost. Jews and Gentiles are found in both groups.
 
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Douggg

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I'm currently undecided about my eschatological view. I'm leaning towards premillennialism currently, but it's not a strong lean as I am open to amillennialism.
I would avoid Amil. Amil believes that at Jesus's Second Coming, He is going to immediately destroy this present world and not fulfill what it says in Zechariah 14:2-5, about His standing on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half, to rescue the Jews (who will have come to believe in Him at that point) and Israel - before beginning His thousand year reign here on this present earth from Jerusalem.

Also, Amil does not recognize these end times time frames given in the bible as literal, but metaphoric. Amil really doesn't have a time of the end scenario like premil.



end times frames 1.jpg
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I would avoid Amil. Amil believes that at Jesus's Second Coming, He is going to immediately destroy this present world and not fulfill what it says in Zechariah 14:2-5, about His standing on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half, to rescue the Jews (who will have come to believe in Him at that point) and Israel - before beginning His thousand year reign here on this present earth from Jerusalem.
Amil allows the New Testament to shine light on the OT and the NT authors do not agree with Douggg's doctrine at all.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Very clearly, Peter taught that Jesus will burn up the heavens and the earth when He comes. And then look at what else this indicates. First, Peter referenced the promise of His second coming in verse 4. Then in verse 9 Peter indicated that the Lord is not slow in keeping that promise. Then in verse 13 he said "in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.". That clearly shows that He is being patient and taking His time to return, but when He does He will fulfill the promise of His coming by making the new heavens and new earth our inheritance.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The Pretribbers take this innocuous passage in 1 Corinthians 10:32, which is simply speaking of eating and drinking onto idols, and build a whole elaborate eschatological theology around it. They do this to support their belief that there are three distinct peoples in this world.

This reading has absolutely nothing to do with categorizing the peoples of this world into three distinct spiritual groups, or is it anything to do with the second coming of Christ, or some supposed future seven-year tribulation. Rather, it is simply speaking of, and relating to, the subject of eating unto idols. This passage is in essence saying that believers must respect the eating customs of all, whether in our everyday life among the Jew and non-Jew (with their distinct customs) or whether among believers – the Church of Jesus Christ. We must eat as unto the Lord wherever we go, unless that food it is sacrificed unto idols (v28). 1 Corinthians 10:31-32 thus says, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.”

This passage separates unbelievers into two distinct groups Jews and Gentiles because they have two diametrically different systems of eating. This was the issue under discussion. That was why Paul divided the unbelievers. He is illustrating the fact that wherever you are among the brethren (the church of God) or outside among the unsaved (Jew or Gentile) “do all to the glory of God.” This passage is addressing a natural issue – albeit, it is for the purpose of outlining spiritual wisdom and truth. This reading is not suggesting or hinting at the notion that there are three types of people in God’s eyes. There isn’t! There are either saved or lost. Jews and Gentiles are found in both groups.
Exactly. You took the time to look at the verse in context to see what it really means and Marilyn C did not. She did not do her due diligence by looking at the context of that. She just made assumptions about it without putting any effort into studying what it really means, which is typical of pretribs.

We should go by the groups that Jesus placed everyone into rather than the groups that pretribs try to place everyone into.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

So, there are the two groups. Those who are with Jesus (saved) and those who are against Him (lost). That's it. No third group. Just like he taught elsewhere as well. Wheat and tares. Good fish and bad fish. Sheep and goats. Wicked and righteous. Just and unjust. Any third group is imaginary and not taught in scripture.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I would avoid Amil. Amil believes that at Jesus's Second Coming, He is going to immediately destroy this present world and not fulfill what it says in Zechariah 14:2-5, about His standing on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half, to rescue the Jews (who will have come to believe in Him at that point) and Israel - before beginning His thousand year reign here on this present earth from Jerusalem.

Also, Amil does not recognize these end times time frames given in the bible as literal, but metaphoric. Amil really doesn't have a time of the end scenario like premil.



View attachment 351887
  • Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?
Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?
 
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