The tangled mess of Christianity and Politics

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I don't think the poster is saying leave you Christianity at the door. I see the poster as saying that the Love that sacrifices oneself for the needs of others is the impetus of morality.

Which means what when it is applied from a Christian perspective? Does it mean we can apply certain Christian particulars in political life or does it mean we need to leave our Christianity at the door to 'love' the non-Christian in accordance with liberal democracy? I don't actually believe the OP or most people here would be willing bring their Christianity into the political sphere, especially if they are American.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

But I think many who call themselves and their political ideology "Christian" have such a skewed version that it is no longer close.

Do you consider any political application of Christianity which isn't secular and liberal, to be legitimate?

 

[childeye 2]

Which means what when it is applied from a Christian perspective?

It means that since the Character of God in mankind is recognized by the suffering and sacrificing of one's own self out of the Love for others, then the reality of a power of moral spirit existing in mankind therefore defines morality for all of mankind. That compassion favors the weak and the poor and politics should not be an exception.

Does it mean we can apply certain Christian particulars in political life or does it mean we need to leave our Christianity at the door to 'love' the non-Christian in accordance with liberal democracy?

Theologically, if God is the power of moral Spirit in mankind, then we shouldn't be thinking in carnal terms of which political party represents the Church (God's will), because we shouldn't be thinking and talking as if His Spirit can be instilled into the heart through legislation. Compassion favors the weak and the poor and government policy should reflect that.

I don't actually believe the OP or most people here would be willing bring their Christianity into the political sphere, especially if they are American.

Theologically, if God is the moral power in mankind, then Christianity is not subjective. There should be no such thing as his or her or their Christianity in our psycholinguistics. It's God's Eternal Spirit existing and being witnessed to in a temporal setting. Laws don't make us righteous.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It means that since the Character of God in mankind should be recognized by the suffering and sacrificing of one's own self out of the Love for others, then the reality of a foundational power of moral spirit existing in mankind therefore defines morality for all of mankind. That compassion favors the poor and politics should not be an exception.

Self sacrifice is a Christian principle but how are you applying this to politics and powere where it is about our relations with others? Do we as Christians have not only sacrifice the interests of ourselves but our friends, family and church give what we have to the outsider?

Does a Father owe more to another child than his own son? Does a Christian owe more to a Mosque than he does his own Church?

How self sacrificial do you want Christians to be?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Do you consider any political application of Christianity which isn't secular and liberal, to be legitimate?

In other words, any "conservative" political application. None come to mind but they may be out there. None that are prominent.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

In other words, any "conservative" political application. None come to mind but they may be out there. None that are prominent.

If by conservative you mean what the Republican party stands for, then you're misunderstanding me. They are largely a secular liberal party like the democrats but represent different interests within that worldview. I am talking about a viewpoint which is not liberal, not an outgroth of the enlightenment and not committed maintaining a secular society where religion is utterly divorced or distanced from the political power and society more broadly.

That to me would be authentically more Christian than what passes for Christianity in politics in the USA and the West broadly.

 

[childeye 2]

Self sacrifice is a Christian principle but how are you applying this to politics and powere where it is about our relations with others?

I'm saying that since God is real, then self-sacrifice is MORE than a principle in Christianity, because God is the moral power that moves people to care about others. Laws cannot instill goodness.

When I say politics, I mean setting good policy for governance. Our politics should reflect that compassion favors the weak and the poor, not the condemnation of sin and sinners.

Do we as Christians have not only sacrifice the interests of ourselves but our friends, family and church give what we have to the outsider?

No, we need to not turn away from compassion, and continue to persevere in Love knowing it's going to be a cross of suffering but one we won't regret carrying. It's possible to be glad you suffered. The lesson of the multiplying loaves and fish show that the disciples gathered back more than they had before they sacrificed. They lost nothing. Give of your first fruits and make your first fruits the best fruits you can offer.

Does a Father owe more to another child than his own son? Does a Christian owe more to a Mosque than he does his own Church?

Compassion favors the weak and the poor.

How self sacrificial do you want Christians to be?

The honest answer is I want Christians to Love others as Christ Loved us. He sacrificed his flesh and blood unto death out of Love. But it doesn't matter what I want, Christ is going to live in us according to the amount of revelation and subsequently each individuals' measure of faith. Those forgiven much will love much, so I don't think we should be using politics to condemn sin.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'm saying that since God is real, then self-sacrifice is MORE than a principle in Christianity, because God is the moral power that moves people to care about others. Laws cannot instill goodness.

When I say politics, I mean setting good policy for governance. Our politics should reflect that compassion favors the weak and the poor, not the condemnation of sinners.

No, we need to not turn away from compassion, and persevere in Love knowing it's going to be a cross of suffering.

Compassion favors the weak and the poor.

The honest answer is I want Christians to Love others as Christ Loved us. He sacrificed his flesh and blood unto death out of Love. But it doesn't matter what I want, Christ is going to live in us according to the amount of revelation and subsequently our measure of faith. Those forgiven much will love much, so I don't think we should be using politics to condemn sin.

You're not answering my specific scenarios. As Christians should we have the interests of our children first or the children of non Christians first?

Should a Christian father privilege the welfare of children not his own and be willing to sacrifice his child for the sake of others?

 

[Grip Docility]

Which means what when it is applied from a Christian perspective? Does it mean we can apply certain Christian particulars in political life or does it mean we need to leave our Christianity at the door to 'love' the non-Christian in accordance with liberal democracy? I don't actually believe the OP or most people here would be willing bring their Christianity into the political sphere, especially if they are American.

Did Jesus seek to be Caesar?

Did Paul politically affiliate?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Did Jesus seek to be Caesar?

Did Paul politically affiliate?

No but Jesus is our King to whom we owe every loyalty and fealty.

But you seem to think every Christian is called to be like Paul or Christ during his earthly ministry. If that were the case Christians shouldn't marry and be fathers and mothers. We all have different callings and some of us are called to excercise political and social authority. The question is how those whom are called to such a role should act. I don't believe they must rule like secular Atheists and that their Christianity should influence them and their actions.

 

[childeye 2]

You're not answering my specific scenarios. As Christians should we have the interests of our children first or the children of non Christians first?

This is the truth without hypocrisy---> Love others as yourself. As a law, there's no differentiating others from myself. It doesn't say love others more than myself.

So, I am answering the specifics of your question, and that answer is that the needs of those, whoever they are who are the weakest and the poorest, should come first.

Should a Christian father privilege the welfare of children not his own and be willing to sacrifice his child for the sake of others?

We need to love others as we would want to be loved. What kind of welfare do you believe causes you to sacrifice your child? I mean do you believe in God's providence and thank Him, or not?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

This is the truth ---> Love others as yourself. There's, no differentiating others from myself. It doesn't say love others more than myself.

So, I am answering the specifics of your question, and that answer is that the needs of those, whoever they are who are the weakest and the poorest, should come first.

We need to love others as we would want to be loved. What kind of welfare do you believe causes you to sacrifice your child? I mean do you believe in God's providence and thank Him, or not?

Again you can't answer the question directly and so there is no practical application of your worldview in real life scenarios. You cannot say that we owe more to our children than to other children which I view as somewhat evil on your behalf because you seem to have an egalitarian view that everyone is equal and we cannot have hierarchy in our relationships.

Have a good day.

 

[childeye 2]

Again you can't answer the question directly and so there is no practical application of your worldview in real life scenarios. You cannot say that we owe more to our children than to other children which I view as somewhat evil on your behalf because you seem to have an egalitarian view that everyone is equal and we cannot have hierarchy in our relationships.

Have a good day.

Hold on a minute. I experience the same Godly love for my own children as I do for other children. It's not a worldview, that's just Who He Is. Are you saying that you don't believe loving others as yourself is possible? Are you saying that you've never experienced God's Spirit?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Hold on a minute. I experience the same Godly love for my own children as I do for other children. Are you saying that you don't believe loving others as yourself is possible? You've never experienced God?

No. What I'm asking is if you had to make a choice between the interests and welfare of your children vs the interests and welfare of other's children whom would you pick? Would you sacrifice your children's interests for the sake of the other's?

 

[Grip Docility]

No but Jesus is our King to whom we owe every loyalty and fealty.

But you seem to think every Christian is called to be like Paul or Christ during his earthly ministry. If that were the case Christians shouldn't marry and be fathers and mothers. We all have different callings and some of us are called to excercise political and social authority. The question is how those whom are called to such a role should act. I don't believe they must rule like secular Atheists and that their Christianity should influence them and their actions.

I believe that Caesar is Caesar. I believe that God is God.

I Believe the Government has taken up slack for what much of the physical Body has forgotten. The Government isn’t the hands of Jesus Christ. Jesus doesn’t ask if we voted for such and who, but if we Loved as He commanded us to Love, by which we will be known as His. I’m not saying that we don’t vote or pretend that government isn’t supposed to be a we the people thing. I’m not saying that we don’t work regular jobs, many of us.

I am saying that it is the Body, not the government that does the Body’s work. We are supposed to seek the kingdom and allow God to do the rest.

@childeye 2 is correct on my stance.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I believe that Caesar is Caesar. I believe that God is God.

I Believe the Government has taken up slack for what much of the physical Body has forgotten. The Government isn’t the hands of Jesus Christ.

Jesus doesn’t ask if we voted for such and who, but if we Loved as He commanded us to Love, by which we will be known as His.

I’m not saying that we don’t vote or pretend that government isn’t supposed to be a we the people thing. I’m not saying that we don’t work regular jobs, many of us.

I am saying that it is the Body, not the government that does the Body’s work. We are supposed to seek the kingdom and allow God to do the rest.

@childeye 2 is correct on my stance.

So what objection do you have to my particular view that Christianity should inform our political outlook? I am not saying don't seek the kingdom, but I am saying do not leave your Christianity at the door when considering political outcomes.

 

[childeye 2]

No. What I'm asking is if you had to make a choice between the interests and welfare of your children vs the interests and welfare of other's children whom would you pick? Would you sacrifice your children's interests for the sake of the other's?

The Love that is God reasons upon loving others as I would want to be loved. Therefore, If I had to choose between the welfare of my child and someone else's child, it would be based on which child had the greater need. That's how I would want to be loved.

 

[Grip Docility]

So what objection do you have to my particular view that Christianity should inform our political outlook? I am not saying don't seek the kingdom, but I am saying do not leave your Christianity at the door when considering political outcomes.

I genuinely see Politics as a false god. I don't know if it has always been this way, but I do believe that it has now become so. I see it fracturing churches on all sides and it breaks my heart. I'm not trying to tell you I'm right and you are wrong or otherwise.

I'm just tired of pretending that politicians have anything to do with Christianity, on any side of the isle or stance. Christianity has always been separate from Caesar.

Satan convicted Christ through Religion and Politics. I've decided to keep it at that. If all of the Christians seeking to politically convict people would place that time into feeding the homeless, loving the pariah's and offering all of that concern to Loving and Helping the addicted and miserable, I think the change that they are looking for would happen. The deeper Christianity invests in politics, I believe the more deeply it will fall apart.

This is my humble opinon.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Ignatius the Kiwi.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The Love that is God reasons upon loving others as I would want to be loved. Therefore, If I had to choose between the welfare of my child and someone else's child, it would be based on which child had the greater need. That's how I would want to be loved.

Interesting. Let's say both children are about to die. Would you pick your child or the other's?

 

[Grip Docility]

Interesting. Let's say both children are about to die. Would you pick your child or the other's?

Shouldn't the hands of the Body of Christ be able to help them all?