The tangled mess of Christianity and Politics

[Grip Docility]

Very good questions. Basically, I think the church has turned to politics because their version of the gospel isn't working. It isn't changing lives, it's filling people with false hopes, so the church is reassuring to politics to accomplish what their gospel cannot. Compel the nation to practice righteousness by coercion and legislation rather than the power of the holy Spirit. See PROJECT 2025

Jesus seemed pretty angry that all the spiritual teachings within His scriptures had been turned into rules of men, when He was here in person, pounding stone and dirt roads with His sandals. I looked it up and see both sides as having that sort of agenda. Each are investing in some form of "moral authority". A look into the annals of history reveals that whatever the "moral authority" promises, the end result is always dismal!

 

[Zaha Torte]

Your wording is very beautiful.

The truth is always beautiful.

Amen and Thank you

Amen!

That's very similar to 1 John 2:27

:)

I've had inserted wisdom happen before. It's not a voice, but it's something strengthening and fortifying that was needed.

Yes - this is a gift of the Spirit - one of revelation - I am not claiming that you are a prophet but, "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Revelation 19:10)

We believe that the Holy Spirit not only confirms the true conclusions we come to - but He can also reveal things to us - but we believe that these revelations will be limited to the individual's "sphere of influence".

Faithful fathers can receive revelation from the Holy Spirit for themselves and their families.

For example - I was led by the Holy Spirit to move from our home State to another - and ever since I committed to follow the dictates of the Spirit our lives have improved, and we have received many blessings - including a new addition to the family.

This does not mean that I can now tell everyone to leave their home State - I do not have any authority outside of my sphere of influence.

I am not a prophet.

That makes sense.

Remember, I believe that Jesus dwells inside my very soul as The Holy Spirit. He's the final biblical prophet. I depend on God and no man. My relationship with God is founded on this. I am convicted to stay within biblical Canon.

We believe that the fullness of the Gospel is contained within the Bible.

Yet this leads me to ask - you do not believe His Apostles to be prophets also? What of those prophets mentioned in the Book of Acts?

Interesting side note - a man I consider to be a prophet - Joseph Smith Jr - spoke of his interactions with God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - and he claimed that to them (the Godhead) it is almost inappropriate to refer to them individually because they are One God.

Although - we still do this in our lessons to be clear on who did what and when - yet I thought the idea was interesting and I firmly believe that the Lord Jesus Christ does dwell within us too - not only through the Light of Christ - but through the Holy Spirit - who He is One with.

Romans 8:9,10,11

Yes - these verses definitely speak of the Holy Spirit - all faithful members of Christ's Church receive the Holy Spirit - and the "anointing" is directly related to the Holy Spirit - we just believe it infers more than the reception of the Holy Spirit - but a divine commission.

This is very similar to Peters words in his epistles.

The truth does not change.

That's very beautifully worded. Jesus is the Word according to John 1

That He is.

I really appreciate you clarifying your convictions. As I respect that you are deeply convicted to be LDS, I'm certain that you also respect my conviction to remain one with the entire invisible Body of Christ and stay exactly at that simple label of "universal" or small "c" catholic.

My intention here is simply to share what I believe and be understood. I have come to believe that my faith may be the most misrepresented one out there - this site does not even recognize me as a Christian.

My main goal on here is to have conversations with other Christians - because my wife is sick of talking to me - and I ponder on these things all the time.

I used to go to my dad whenever I had a "breakthrough" to share - but since I moved, I feel like I need to have more substance before calling him out of nowhere.

So please don't misunderstand and think that I am trying to convert you or anything. I just love talking about these things and I want people to understand what we believe - even if they never agree.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Jesus seemed pretty angry that all the spiritual teachings within His scriptures had been turned into rules of men, when He was here in person, pounding stone and dirt roads with His sandals. I looked it up and see both sides as having that sort of agenda. Each are investing in some form of "moral authority". A look into the annals of history reveals that whatever the "moral authority" promises, the end result is always dismal!

It seems to me that we ought to be able to discern:
I favor A because of my theology.
I Favor B because it seems good for society.

There may be overlap of both A and B. But I can and should promote B without qualifications. A I must be able to discuss in our pluralistic society.

Jesus spoke of and embodied an ethic of love. God of love is the ultimate moral authority. But that is theological. We are free to express it to the fullest of our ability. That is our call and that is our right.

But when it comes to laws we must give priority to the question, 'What is best for society?" and be willing to debate and compromise.

We might think something is best for society because it conforms to our theology. We much acknowledge that confirmation and realize it is founded on theology.

 

[Grip Docility]

It seems to me that we ought to be able to discern:
I favor A because of my theology.
I Favor B because it seems good for society.

There may be overlap of both A and B. But I can and should promote B without qualifications. A I must be able to discuss in our pluralistic society.

Jesus spoke of and embodied an ethic of love. God of love is the ultimate moral authority. But that is theological. We are free to express it to the fullest of our ability. That is our call and that is our right.

But when it comes to laws we must give priority to the question, 'What is best for society?" and be willing to debate and compromise.

We might think something is best for society because it conforms to our theology. We much acknowledge that confirmation and realize it is founded on theology.

We've done well as such a young country, based on your very words. Beautifully written, by the way! This is how Jesus Christ truly is the foundation of what is known as western civilization. Something feels different, now. It seems that the truths that you have expressed have been forgotten. You wrote this out so very simple, yet I can see that it will take multiple reads to fully comprehend it. Thank you!

 

[Grip Docility]

The truth is always beautiful.

:)

Yes - this is a gift of the Spirit - one of revelation - I am not claiming that you are a prophet but, "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Revelation 19:10)

Indeed, I see Jesus as the true Prophet of Prophets, who Is the very Face of God. We simply ponder these matters as best we can, implored by our Love for Him which drives us to search Him out more deeply every day.

We believe that the Holy Spirit not only confirms the true conclusions we come to - but He can also reveal things to us - but we believe that these revelations will be limited to the individual's "sphere of influence".

That's an interesting concept.

Faithful fathers can receive revelation from the Holy Spirit for themselves and their families.

This is the "sphere of influence" that you discuss being further explained.

For example - I was led by the Holy Spirit to move from our home State to another - and ever since I committed to follow the dictates of the Spirit our lives have improved, and we have received many blessings - including a new addition to the family.

That's wonderful and a blessing!

This does not mean that I can now tell everyone to leave their home State - I do not have any authority outside of my sphere of influence.

I understand.

I am not a prophet.

Amen! Me neither!

We believe that the fullness of the Gospel is contained within the Bible.

Amen!

Yet this leads me to ask - you do not believe His Apostles to be prophets also? What of those prophets mentioned in the Book of Acts?

All Cannon (66 and 73) is God breathed. The men are vessels of His Holy Spirit, who is the True author of scripture, through them, as I perceive it.

Interesting side note - a man I consider to be a prophet - Joseph Smith Jr - spoke of his interactions with God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - and he claimed that to them (the Godhead) it is almost inappropriate to refer to them individually because they are One God.

I know his story. I have studied him. I do not desire to say any more, than I, personally, am convicted by Jesus to not look outside of scripture. By no means is this your expectation, but merely what Jesus has impressed upon me.

Although - we still do this in our lessons to be clear on who did what and when - yet I thought the idea was interesting and I firmly believe that the Lord Jesus Christ does dwell within us too - not only through the Light of Christ - but through the Holy Spirit - who He is One with.

That is beautiful!

Yes - these verses definitely speak of the Holy Spirit - all faithful members of Christ's Church receive the Holy Spirit - and the "anointing" is directly related to the Holy Spirit - we just believe it infers more than the reception of the Holy Spirit - but a divine commission.

I understand what you are saying.

The truth does not change.

I understand this as He is the Living Truth.

That He is.

Amen!

My intention here is simply to share what I believe and be understood. I have come to believe that my faith may be the most misrepresented one out there - this site does not even recognize me as a Christian.

If theology saves us, we are all damned to whatever that means. Scripture says that we are known by our Love. Jesus Bled for all of Creation. I perceive the Gospel Commission to be to Love without boundary. You Love Jesus Christ. I can see this in your words. We speak a different theological language, but God is not limited in such matters. I, again, tell you... I count you my sibling in Jesus Christ. Mind you, I am no more than a forgiven sinner, dependent on His Love and Mercy every moment of my existence, but, I have no reason to think of you as anything other than my Loving sibling in Jesus Christ. You believe that the Son is from the Father and OF the Father. This means that you are not Anti-Christ per the Apostle John. You are Loving. This means that Christ's mercy has changed your very Soul. I count you my sibling in Jesus.

My main goal on here is to have conversations with other Christians - because my wife is sick of talking to me - and I ponder on these things all the time.

I understand the desire to share our perspective on things. I also get that you believe in a way that is looked down upon by much of Christianity. I don't read about Jesus shunning people because His pears judged Him for not shunning them. I see quite the opposite. He surrounded Himself with people that were thirsty for His Love and maybe His good Wine. I hear that it was the best vintage that has ever been enjoyed in all of time.

I used to go to my dad whenever I had a "breakthrough" to share - but since I moved, I feel like I need to have more substance before calling him out of nowhere.

I still do this and weep inside about the day that my father will no longer be here to call. On the other hand, I do believe that he will be immediately with Jesus and Jesus has always been his first Love. In that, I will rejoice, though many tears will fall from my face, heart and soul.

So please don't misunderstand and think that I am trying to convert you or anything. I just love talking about these things and I want people to understand what we believe - even if they never agree.

I assure you that we have beliefs that will never line up. Yet, you are my Sibling in Jesus Christ, so I have no desire to not hear what you have to share. I assure you that I have deep convictions that will never change in reference to decisions I've made about LDS doctrines and never believing them, yet you most likely feel the same about many things that I believe. You, too are welcome to PM me if you simply desire an ear. Move slow if you want to share massive thoughts, so that I can honestly show you that I have read and comprehend them, so you know that you have been heard. I am convicted in my faith and know that hearing other views won't change what Jesus has placed upon my heart, so you don't have to fear being a stumbling block before me, if you desire to share ideas and thoughts. One thing, you must know. I am a sinful man. If you still desire to talk to me, PM away. I don't want to be a stumbling block before you.

All Love in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior to you.

 

[ViaCrucis]

At one point Dietrich Bonhoeffer (OBM) argued that Christians shouldn't be involved in politics. A position that was challenged harsh when Hitler came to power in Germany.

Religion and politics, under the Nazis, were twisted and perverted, combined. The Nazis tried to hijack and rebrand Christianity in Germany, in two ways:

1) Positive Christianity -- Positive Christianity was an ideology that intended to re-frame and recontextualize Christianity to make it "German" and "Aryan". It had no room for the humble Jewish carpenter who suffered as a victim of the cross; and instead it created a uniquely German Christ, and Aryan Jesus. A warrior Jesus who was a noble warrior fighting against the Jews of his own day, and who died as a martyr at the hands of Jewish scheming. In the process of de-Judaizing Jesus they claimed Jesus wasn't a Jew at all, but was Aryan, a "Nordic Amorite" as they called him. They expunged from their Bibles everything deemed Jewish or too Jewish (such as the entire Old Testament).

2) The German Christians -- The German Christian Movement was the vehicle to bring Positive Christianity into the established German churches. In particular, the established Protestant Church in Germany, transforming it into the Reichskirche--the religious arm of the Nazi Party. They, both figuratively and quite literally, replaced the Cross with the swastika.

Bonhoeffer's initial response to seeing the Nazis taking over his beloved Germany and creeping their tendrils into every area of German life, including the churches, was to leave Germany and go to the United States. In the US he taught at Union Seminary in Harlem. Bonhoeffer's time at Union gave him an interesting perspective, Bonhoeffer was deeply influenced by the experiences of black Christians in America, seeing parallels between how black Americans were often treated in the US and the Nazi rhetoric about the Jews back in his native Germany which he would bring back with him when he returned to Germany, to confront the Nazi horrors head-on. Back in Germany Bonhoeffer did what he always did: he was first and foremost a pastor, and a teacher of theology and Scripture. He taught, he counseled. For a time he had a radio program, until it was shut down by the Nazis. Bonhoeffer went on to join the underground Confessing Church movement, in Germany, Austria, and elsewhere in Europe many Christian pastors, Lutheran, Reformed, and others, came together to create an alternative to the Reichskirche, a place where Christians could still be Christians. One of the leaders of the Confessing Movement, Reformed theologian Karl Barth, was responsible for drafting what would become the Barmen Declaration (aka the Theological Declaration of Barmen), which asserted allegiance and faithfulness to Jesus without compromise, especially the compromises and perversions of the Reichskirche. Other notably members included Pastor Martin Niemoller, the author of the famous "First They Came" poem.

In spite of Bonhoeffer's rather un-political position when he was younger, and his advice against Christians involving themselves with politics. It became inevitable, there was no way to not become political--when the political was at your door, threatening and attacking the very foundations of everything around him. And in spite of his avowed pacifism, he ultimately offered his services to help in a plot to take out Adolf Hitler, a plot which unfortunately failed. The plot to assassinate Hitler with an explosive failed, and the conspirators were discovered, including Bonhoeffer. In the end Bonhoeffer was thrown into a Nazi prison camp, and hanged--only months before the Allies liberated that very same camp.

Bonhoeffer's legacy still demands hard questions: Should Christians get political at all? To what ends should they if they do? What is the line in the sand that cannot be crossed? When do the extraordinary circumstances of the world require extraordinary action?

Bonhoeffer would write, early in the Nazi occupation of the German government, when they began digging their claws into church affairs, that there can come a time when the State crosses certain lines that require action by the Church; that it isn't merely enough for the Christian to bandage up the victim harmed by the wheel of the evil machine, but to interfere with the machine itself.

The Church is not a political institution, and it must not be--it cannot be--or else she would cease to be the Church. And yet, the Church's mission and response to the conditions and situation of the world is never entirely free from the political. When the Church sees the State create victims, she must respond as a healer, bringing medicine, balm, and bandaging the victim; she must ask and demand of the State to take accountability for its actions. This is the least the Church can do; as is her calling from heaven as the Gospel-bearing City of God on earth.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Grip Docility]

At one point Dietrich Bonhoeffer (OBM) argued that Christians shouldn't be involved in politics. A position that was challenged harsh when Hitler came to power in Germany.

Outstanding historical example of this discussion!

Spoiler

Religion and politics, under the Nazis, were twisted and perverted, combined. The Nazis tried to hijack and rebrand Christianity in Germany, in two ways:

1) Positive Christianity -- Positive Christianity was an ideology that intended to re-frame and recontextualize Christianity to make it "German" and "Aryan". It had no room for the humble Jewish carpenter who suffered as a victim of the cross; and instead it created a uniquely German Christ, and Aryan Jesus. A warrior Jesus who was a noble warrior fighting against the Jews of his own day, and who died as a martyr at the hands of Jewish scheming. In the process of de-Judaizing Jesus they claimed Jesus wasn't a Jew at all, but was Aryan, a "Nordic Amorite" as they called him. They expunged from their Bibles everything deemed Jewish or too Jewish (such as the entire Old Testament).

2) The German Christians -- The German Christian Movement was the vehicle to bring Positive Christianity into the established German churches. In particular, the established Protestant Church in Germany, transforming it into the Reichskirche--the religious arm of the Nazi Party. They, both figuratively and quite literally, replaced the Cross with the swastika.

Bonhoeffer's initial response to seeing the Nazis taking over his beloved Germany and creeping their tendrils into every area of German life, including the churches, was to leave Germany and go to the United States. In the US he taught at Union Seminary in Harlem. Bonhoeffer's time at Union gave him an interesting perspective, Bonhoeffer was deeply influenced by the experiences of black Christians in America, seeing parallels between how black Americans were often treated in the US and the Nazi rhetoric about the Jews back in his native Germany which he would bring back with him when he returned to Germany, to confront the Nazi horrors head-on. Back in Germany Bonhoeffer did what he always did: he was first and foremost a pastor, and a teacher of theology and Scripture. He taught, he counseled. For a time he had a radio program, until it was shut down by the Nazis. Bonhoeffer went on to join the underground Confessing Church movement, in Germany, Austria, and elsewhere in Europe many Christian pastors, Lutheran, Reformed, and others, came together to create an alternative to the Reichskirche, a place where Christians could still be Christians. One of the leaders of the Confessing Movement, Reformed theologian Karl Barth, was responsible for drafting what would become the Barmen Declaration (aka the Theological Declaration of Barmen), which asserted allegiance and faithfulness to Jesus without compromise, especially the compromises and perversions of the Reichskirche. Other notably members included Pastor Martin Niemoller, the author of the famous "First They Came" poem.

In spite of Bonhoeffer's rather un-political position when he was younger, and his advice against Christians involving themselves with politics. It became inevitable, there was no way to not become political--when the political was at your door, threatening and attacking the very foundations of everything around him. And in spite of his avowed pacifism, he ultimately offered his services to help in a plot to take out Adolf Hitler, a plot which unfortunately failed. The plot to assassinate Hitler with an explosive failed, and the conspirators were discovered, including Bonhoeffer. In the end Bonhoeffer was thrown into a Nazi prison camp, and hanged--only months before the Allies liberated that very same camp.

Bonhoeffer's legacy still demands hard questions: Should Christians get political at all? To what ends should they if they do? What is the line in the sand that cannot be crossed? When do the extraordinary circumstances of the world require extraordinary action?

Bonhoeffer would write, early in the Nazi occupation of the German government, when they began digging their claws into church affairs, that there can come a time when the State crosses certain lines that require action by the Church; that it isn't merely enough for the Christian to bandage up the victim harmed by the wheel of the evil machine, but to interfere with the machine itself.

Solid Context!

The Church is not a political institution, and it must not be--it cannot be--or else she would cease to be the Church. And yet, the Church's mission and response to the conditions and situation of the world is never entirely free from the political. When the Church sees the State create victims, she must respond as a healer, bringing medicine, balm, and bandaging the victim; she must ask and demand of the State to take accountability for its actions. This is the least the Church can do; as is her calling from heaven as the Gospel-bearing City of God on earth.

-CryptoLutheran

Profoundly True.

 

[Bobber]

I've pretty much given up on thinking these are the good guys and these are the bad guys. I put as my main concern now getting the spirits of men born again, or change the inward nature of ALL from both sides and politically speaking someway somehow good things will play out. You try to create "righteous laws" without changing the nature of men well....I'n not sure how much you've gained. Building the Kingdom of God is a spiritual thing done in the hearts of men.

 

[Grip Docility]

I've pretty much given up on thinking these are the good guys and these are the bad guys. I put as my main concern now getting the spirits of men born again, or change the inward nature of ALL from both sides and politically speaking someway somehow good things will play out. You try to create "righteous laws" without changing the nature of men well....I'm not sure how much you've gained. Building the Kingdom of God is a spiritual thing done in the hearts of men.

We render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's. I can't think of a single scripture to attack your words with, but I can most certainly recall thousands of scriptures that support your statements.

 

[Ace777]

One would have to live in a cave

Does the stone interfere with reception on their devise?

 

[Ace777]

Building the Kingdom of God is a spiritual thing done in the hearts of men.

Exactly and man makes a big enough mess at things to let us know of our need for God to be running the show.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Exactly and man makes a big enough mess at things to let us know of our need for God to be running the show.

And yet we have the responsibility to tend this garden.

 

[bèlla]

I have zero trust and faith in politicians and was never impacted religiously by either. Their character was too difficult to overlook and no amount of mental wrangling would allow me to see them the way they desired to be portrayed. They make empty promises to voters and serve the wealthy when they're elected. Why would I respect that?

I was shocked to see the level of involvement and polarization with believers. I view it as hero worship and there's usually reasons behind it. The person is losing control or experiences changes they're unable to grasp or afraid of what's to come. So they look for hope in familiar places or result to nostalgia like maga.

I don't have false expectations or look to them for assistance. They're agents for the elite and that's how I view them. No matter what they do it's always inequitable and the other finishes on top. They're financial tools for my betterment but I don't expect them to save the world.

~bella

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

One doesn't have to leave their Christianity at the door when seeking to enter politics or power, period. Christianity will always have an impact on politics if people genuinely believe it

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

One doesn't have to leave their Christianity at the door when seeking to enter politics or power, period. Christianity will always have an impact on politics if people genuinely believe it

Is that Christianity or Christendom. Some kind of appropriation of the label "Christian" to support an ideology.
What is the main message of Christ? Is it not "repent", "Love one another" ?
It is self emptying, sacrificial and service. Not "Me first", "Us first".

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Is that Christianity or Christendom. Some kind of appropriation of the label "Christian" to support an ideology.
What is the main message of Christ? Is it not "repent", "Love one another" ?
It is self emptying, sacrificial and service. Not "Me first", "Us first".

The two are indistinguishable because Christendom is the Christian people all throughout the world.

I simply will not leave my Christianity at the door in political considerations like you would.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The two are indistinguishable because Christendom is the Christian people all throughout the world.

I simply will not leave my Christianity at the door in political considerations like you would.

But I think many who call themselves and their political ideology "Christian" have such a skewed version that it is no longer close.

 

[bèlla]

One doesn't have to leave their Christianity at the door when seeking to enter politics or power, period. Christianity will always have an impact on politics if people genuinely believe it

How would you know that? And I don't ask the question accusingly. Politics and power are significantly different from typical employment and filled with the requisite challenges and dangers that accompany that sphere.

~bella

 

[childeye 2]

The two are indistinguishable because Christendom is the Christian people all throughout the world.

I simply will not leave my Christianity at the door in political considerations like you would.

I don't think the poster is saying anyone should or even could leave Christianity at the door. I see the poster as saying that the Love that sacrifices oneself for the needs of others is the impetus of morality. Compassion favors the poor. This is what defines the good in mankind and our politics should not be an exception.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

How would you know that? And I don't ask the question accusingly. Politics and power are significantly different from typical employment and filled with the requisite challenges and dangers that accompany that sphere.

~bella

How does one separate a deeply held worldview from the application of politics or power? I think the answer is the most obvious, they don't believe in their own supposed deeply held religious views. That there is some other standard that is to be used when governing which is what they truly believe.

In the case of western politics and politicians it is secular liberalism and everything is done through that vector, not Christianity. Is politics dangerous? Yes, but we as Christians aren't called to be pacifists or hand power to non-Christians. We can govern and act politically in our own interests.