Noah-Lots of Water in the Oceans and Subterranean Oceans

[Vambram]

Which is how we know that neither of them were. They are just mutually contradictory genealogies of Joseph, neither of them about Mary.

That is incorrect.

 

[The Barbarian]

Which is how we know that neither of them were. They are just mutually contradictory genealogies of Joseph, neither of them about Mary.

That is incorrect.

They both say they are of Joseph. Neither say they are of Mary. C'mon. It's right there on the page.

 

[Vambram]

Which is how we know that neither of them were. They are just mutually contradictory genealogies of Joseph, neither of them about Mary.

They both say they are of Joseph. Neither say they are of Mary. C'mon. It's right there on the page.

You are refusing to understand the cultural reason why Mary's name was not mentioned in the genealogies. God's Word does not contradict itself.

 

[Ace777]

Which is how we know that neither of them were. They are just mutually contradictory genealogies of Joseph, neither of them about Mary.

They had everything to do with Mary. We read in Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” So Mary had to be a offspring (seed) of Eve. Of course a LOT of people do not accept the DNA evidence and they believe every women that has ever lived is an offspring from the Eve in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago.

Jesus HAD to be the offspring of David because Jesus inherited David's kingdom. Also the promise - covenant of Abraham.

Matthew 1:1 "The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:"

 

[The Barbarian]

You are refusing to understand the cultural reason why Mary's name was not mentioned in the genealogies.

Absent any documentation, and given the direct contradiction in scripture itself, it's clearly a poorly-thought out excuse.

 

[The Barbarian]

So Mary had to be a offspring (seed) of Eve.

I don't see how that changes what the Bible actually says.

 

[Vambram]

Absent any documentation, and given the direct contradiction in scripture itself, it's clearly a poorly-thought out excuse.

It is not a poorly thought out excuse. It is fact. The original manuscripts of the Scriptures were inerrant. Therefore, there is NOT a contradiction in the two different genealogies.

 

[The Barbarian]

It is not a poorly thought out excuse. It is fact. The original manuscripts of the Scriptures were inerrant. Therefore, there is NOT a contradiction in the two different genealogies.

Here, you're assuming what you proposed to prove.

 

[Vambram]

I am NOT assuming anything at all.

 

[HarleyER]

Yes David wrote the Psalms and one of them comes from Moses. It was an oral tradition all those years until David recorded what was a oral tradition for years. It is interesting to see what the people say that give us our Bible. There are constant changes and revisions. Yet somehow everything remains intact. Lets look at what AI says about this.

The Torah is generally considered to have been compiled between 450–350 BCE, during the Persian period (539–332 BCE). This is based on evidence from early manuscripts and non-biblical sources, such as the Letter of Aristeas, which indicates that the Torah was translated into Greek in Alexandria around 285–247 BCE.

However, the Torah's traditional attribution to Moses, who is said to have received the text from God over 40 years, starting at Mount Sinai and ending in 1272 BCE, has led some to believe it was written much earlier. However, scholars say that only small portions of the Torah can be traced back to Moses, such as Exodus 17:14, 24:4, 34:28, Numbers 33:2, Deuteronomy 31:9, and 31:22. Others, known as minimalists, believe the Torah was written after the Israelites' captivity, around 1,000 years later than the traditional view.

Notice in the Hebrew Bible there are no sentences much less paragraphs and chapters. The Bible was intended to be read and the rhythm was memorized. Sort of like music where they record the lyrics but the music itself is memorized and not recorded.

View attachment 351677

Just a slight correction to my post, some of the Psalms were written by David, some by others, one by Moses. Given that Moses is attributed to have written the first five books of scripture, there is no reason to suggest that he didn't write the one Psalm and it was simply organized later in with the rest of the Psalms. He also wrote the song in Deuteronomy 31.

I'm familiar with liberal scholars who claim the Torah was written much later. What "scholars" states, I'm not overly impressed. Usually these are like "unnamed sources" these days. They are often liberal theologians who don't believe the Bible or simply seek to discredit the Word of God.

There is nothing to support a later date.

1) 2 Kings 22 and 2 Chronicles 34 tells us the book of the Law was hidden for 60 years and later found by Hilkiah during the reign of Josiah around the year of 622BC, prior to going into captivity. Thus, if the Torah wasn't written until 450-350BC as you claim, how would Hilkiah have possibly found the Book of the Law 200-300 years before it was even written?

2) Specific details of the terrain and geographical markers are included that would have been lost on someone writing a century later especially if they no longer existed. (e.g. Ex 15:27 there were twelve springs of water and seventy date palms, and they camped there beside the waters.)

3) Moses was a highly intelligent, skilled individual. Writing was part of his calling. Acts 7:21 states "Moses was educated in all the learning of the Egyptians, and he was a man of power in words and deeds. And again: Exodus 34:27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

4) There was NEVER any question in scripture that anyone believe Moses did not write the Torah. It is repeated over and over in Scripture. To name a few places:

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.​

Mark 12:26 But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?​

Luke 20:28 and they questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies, having a wife, and he is childless, his brother should marry the wife and raise up children to his brother.​

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.​

John 1:45 Philip *found Nathanael and *said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”​

It's pretty clear from our Lord Jesus Christ that

1) Moses wrote the first five books (since our Lord Jesus was talking to Jews in John 5:46), and​

2) what Moses wrote was about Christ.​

This is despite what the "scholars" states.

 

[trophy33]

I've been trying to find out from what source the Septuagint was translated. All I can find out is that it was translated from Hebrew, but that isn't much help in our discussion. What Hebrew?

I will just say for the 4th time that you can check the Dead Sea Scrolls. There were several different textual lines found in them. Some are almost word-for-word as in the Septuagint (mostly in the Jeremiah scroll), some are almost word-for-word as in the Masoretic text (mostly in the Isaiah scroll) and some are different from both.

Its accepted that in the ancient times there were several textual lines and all were used by different groups. There was not "one Hebrew text". You can also check that in your New Testament. When the authors quote the Old Testament, its mostly the Septuagint, sometimes the Masoretic text and sometimes its not found in any Old Testament we have today.

According to the experts, the Septuagint was considered corrupted by the Jewish fathers.

But not by the Christian fathers. Quite the opposite - the Masoretic text was considered corrupted by some of them. Jews used the Septuagint till Christianity. After Christians adopted the Septuagint as their Scripture and were proving Jesus is Christ from it, Jews began to use the Masoretic text in which the prophecies about Christ are not so clear (the most known are "young girl" instead of "virgin", "like a lion on my hands and feet" instead of "they pierced my hands and feet" etc).

And you completely ignored my question about Abraham again. You focus solely on the LXX, which is not important for my question at all - the question is about the genealogies in the Masoretic text which you believe are literal. Here it is again:

Why was Abraham thinking/saying that men in 100 years can not have children, if the genealogies are literal and all his relatives since Shem were still alive and having children in basically any age?

Why was Abraham, who is said to die at the age of 175, described to die "in a good old age"? 175 years would not be a good old age at all.

 

[d taylor]

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99% of people who identify as christian do not understand what the Genesis flood was. Because they do not understand (or believe) God's creation account in The Bible. In Genesis it is plainly stated that the flood covered the earth. The flood did not cover the seas/ocean that surrounded the single piece of circular land. Just the land and only life on the land died, nothing in the seas died.

Earth in The Bible means land / ground and not a water cover sphere with scattered continents over the sphere.

This can not be stated any clearer in the flood account in Genesis. It just that science has dumb down so many people of the christian faith, to The Bibles descriptions. People can not see the plain account given in The Bible.

For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.”

Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth.

And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.

Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

 

[Apple Sky]

The scientists from Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois have discovered a reservoir of water that is three times the size of all of Earth's oceans, deep beneath the planet's surface. This underground water supply rests some 700 km beneath our feet.

This hidden ocean, concealed within a blue rock known as ringwoodite, dares our understanding of where Earth’s water came from. The size of this subterranean sea is triple the volume of all the planet’s surface oceans combined. If this subterranean ocean were to be combined with our present ocean, it would cover the entire planet except for a few mountain peaks.

This new discovery not only enthrals with its scale but also proposes a new theory about Earth’s water cycle. It recommends that instead of arriving via comet impacts, as some theories have posited, Earth’s oceans may have slowly seeped out from its very core.

Genesis 7 states “11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.”

Some would like to say there wasn’t enough water to cause a worldwide flood. This seems to run counter to what scientists from Northwestern University have discovered.

I remember reading about this a while back & and my imediate thought went back to Noah's flood.

Here is an image of Ringwoodite;

Ringwoodite and the Deep Water Cycle​

Let's Talk Science
https://letstalkscience.ca › stem-explained › ringwoodite...

 

[HarleyER]

I will just say for the 4th time that you can check the Dead Sea Scrolls. There were several different textual lines found in them. Some are almost word-for-word as in the Septuagint (mostly in the Jeremiah scroll), some are almost word-for-word as in the Masoretic text (mostly in the Isaiah scroll) and some are different from both.

Its accepted that in the ancient times there were several textual lines and all were used by different groups. There was not "one Hebrew text". You can also check that in your New Testament. When the authors quote the Old Testament, its mostly the Septuagint, sometimes the Masoretic text and sometimes its not found in any Old Testament we have today.


But not by the Christian fathers. Quite the opposite - the Masoretic text was considered corrupted by some of them. Jews used the Septuagint till Christianity. After Christians adopted the Septuagint as their Scripture and were proving Jesus is Christ from it, Jews began to use the Masoretic text in which the prophecies about Christ are not so clear (the most known are "young girl" instead of "virgin", "like a lion on my hands and feet" instead of "they pierced my hands and feet" etc).

And you completely ignored my question about Abraham again. You focus solely on the LXX, which is not important for my question at all - the question is about the genealogies in the Masoretic text which you believe are literal. Here it is again:

Why was Abraham thinking/saying that men in 100 years can not have children, if the genealogies are literal and all his relatives since Shem were still alive and having children in basically any age?

Why was Abraham, who is said to die at the age of 175, described to die "in a good old age"? 175 years would not be a good old age at all.

"I will just say for the 4th time that you can check the Dead Sea Scrolls."

About what??? The Fragment of Truth video talks about the Dead Sea Scrolls. They just confirm the existing texts.

You seem to be fixated on the fact that there was only the Masoretic and Septuagint. This, again, was NOT the case. One of our Bible Study member has a doctorate in Syriac, and has lectured and written extensively on variances between the Masoretic, Syriac, and Aramaic texts. There are even variances within the Syriac text. BTW-MOST Bible translations today are from the Masoretic text with footnotes. So scholars must like it.

As far as "ancient times", what times are you talking about? Of course there was a Hebrew text. What on earth do you think the Masoretic text is?

"But not by the Christian fathers. Quite the opposite - the Masoretic text was considered corrupted by some of them. Jews used the Septuagint till Christianity."

I'd like to see the evidence for this. The scroll Jesus picked up in the synagogue was certainly not the Septuagint.

"Why was Abraham thinking/saying that men in 100 years can not have children, "

Where on earth did Abraham say men in their 100s cannot have children? Although I think it's a bit unwise. And, yes, 175 was a "good, old age" considering he was in the pink of health. We live to 70-90 with aches and pain.

 

[The Barbarian]

The Bible. In Genesis it is plainly stated that the flood covered the earth.

"The land." "Not the world."

And the continents were already separated at the time of the flood.

 

[d taylor]

"The land." "Not the world."

And the continents were already separated at the time of the flood.

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You can not even understand my post, so i will not waste time in reply's to your quoting of post i make.

 

[David Lamb]

"The land." "Not the world."

And the continents were already separated at the time of the flood.

Genesis tells us:

“And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.” (Ge 7:19 NKJV)

We are not told in Genesis what shape the continents were before the world-wide flood, but I would think that a flood of such proportions would bring about some pretty dramatic changes.

 

[Ted-01]

Genesis tells us:

“And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.” (Ge 7:19 NKJV)

We are not told in Genesis what shape the continents were before the world-wide flood, but I would think that a flood of such proportions would bring about some pretty dramatic changes.

I'm not certain, but I think that the word erets is an emphatic word that is used to describe the entire planet (below the heavens) ... I'm not sure why people try to turn it into something else. I guess the attempt is to reduce it to "land" is so that they can discredit the plain reading of the account, and turn the narrative to "local flooding"?

 

[The Barbarian]

Genesis tells us:

“And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.” (Ge 7:19 NKJV)

The Earth is not flat; the people of that time thought it was, so they used that language of a flat earth covered by a heaven with a solid sky with windows in it. Besides the word in Hebrew was "land." If it covered the world, it would have used "tebel."

Taking those elements literally would be to miss the point of the narrative.

I'm not certain, but I think that the word erets is an emphatic word that is used to describe the entire planet (below the heavens)

That word for "entire world" is "tebel." The Bible uses "erets" for the flood, which means land as in "erets Israel", the land of Israel.

 

[The Barbarian]

You can not even understand my post

Everyone gets it. You made the error of inserting your own ideas into scripture.

i will not waste time in reply's to your quoting of post i make.

Not necessary. I'll must make comments as needed.