A summation of "Progressive" Christianity beliefs.

[dzheremi]

@dzheremi your post by the way on this subject was absolutely exquisite; perhaps at some point you might feel so inclined to type out a glossary of Coptic Liturgical Terminology or perhaps help me draft up a sort of spreadsheet or table comparing the terminology?

I'm not against the idea, but what would the glossary contain? Most of our liturgical terms come from Greek, not Coptic. Coptic is used more 'theologically', to the extent that it makes sense to separate the two to distinguish between, e.g., "Pi-aspasmos" (referring to the literal part of the liturgy known in English as the "Kiss of Peace" or "Apostolic Kiss", depending on the English translation you consult) and "pimairomi" (the Coptic for "philanthropos", which is also used in our hymns).

 

[Rose_bud]

Normally i am respectful of local religions, but with the Voudon religion as practiced originally by the Yoruba tribes in Benin, which later spread to Togo and Nigeria and even to the Akan peoples in Ghana, and which also spread to the New World where it formed the basis for various derivative religions called Voodoo and also the Louisiana Voodoo, Hoodoo and Juju religions in New Orleans and the lower Mississippi river, I have to draw a line. It’s basically a satanic belief system that is thoroughly disgusting, one of the most repulsive religious systems on the planet.

Some indigenous religions are worthy of respect and some are even related to Christianity in some respects. For example, the Zoroastrian religion of Persia, or the ancient Egyptian religion which had the idea of a God-man, but misidentified that person as Pharoah rather than as Jesus Christ, but which nonetheless helped the Coptic (Egyptian) people be open to the idea of a Theandric savior, which in turn enabled their embrace of Christianity. I also have great respect for Shinto, Taoism, the indigenous religion of Korea, Sikhism, some forms of Hinduism and Jainism, the non-violent varieties of Islam, particularly the Mevlevis and the crypto-Christian Alevis and Bektashis, and the Kurdish Yazidi and Yarsani religions which appear to be descended at least partially from an heretical form of Syrian Christianity called Ophitism.

And likewise some indigenous African religions are beautiful. I like that of the Bantu people. But Voudon is just a filthy religion, which results in the needless death and suffering of animals, many of which are sacrificed not for food consumption but for other purposes, and also represents a major public health risk in terms of the contact it promotes between people and the decomposing parts of dead animals. And it is not native to most of the areas in Africa and the Carribean and United States where it and derivatives thereof are practiced; it is native only to Benin, where it must have appeared as a result of demonic activity (much like the origin of Islam appears to be the result of Muhammed being misled by a demon impersonating St. Gabriel the Archangel).

I would list Voudon together with Scientology, Christian Science and a few other cults as something that should be banned for reasons of public health, and the only reason why I don’t advocate this in the US is my desire to protect the absolute status of the First Ammendment. But in other countries that lack our free speech protections, and which have an established church, like England, Greece, Finland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and the former Soviet Socialist Republics such as the Baltic States, I would positively support a ban on this religion, just as some countries have very properly banned Scientology.

I appreciate your views on the Voudon religion and its practices. While it's important to respect local religions and cultural beliefs, it's also understandable to criticize or disagree with certain aspects of a belief system that may be harmful or contradictory to one's own values.

However there is a difference between Voudo/n and voodoo.

"Vodou originated in the ancient kingdom of Dahomey (present-day Nigeria, Benin, and Togo) and derives from the Fon word for "God" or "Spirit." Other accurate spellings include Vodun, Vodoun, but never voodoo, the sensationalist and derogatory Western creation.
Vodou is a comprehensive system of knowledge that has nothing to do with simplistic and erroneous images such as sticking pins into dolls, putting a hex on an adversary, or turning innocents into zombies. It is an organized form of communal support that provides meaning to the human experience in relation to the natural and supernatural forces of the universe". ( From an African source).

I think Voudo/Vodou and Voodoo are two different things (based on the African source of information), the latter having no similarities with the Christian faith.

Many African religions do share similarities with the Old Testament sacrificial system, and syncretism often occurs when different religious traditions intersect. The connection to ancestral practices and beliefs is strong in many African cultures, and animal sacrifices are often used for cleansing, rites of passage, and appeasing ancestors.

It's important to recognize that these beliefs and practices are deeply rooted in cultural and religious heritage, and understanding the context and significance of these traditions is crucial.

Reading the Bible in its entirety and understanding the historical and cultural context of animal sacrifices in the Old Testament and how it has been fulfilled in Christ, can help to clarify the significance of these practices and how they differ from modern-day animal sacrifices in African religions.

I understand your concerns about Voudon and other religions that may pose public health risks or promote harmful practices. However, banning a religion outright raises complex ethical and legal questions, even in countries with established churches or limited free speech protections.

Instead of a blanket ban, many countries address specific harmful practices or activities through targeted laws and regulations. It's important to engage in respectful discussions with religious leaders, health experts, and the community to better understand the complex issues involved.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm not against the idea, but what would the glossary contain? Most of our liturgical terms come from Greek, not Coptic. Coptic is used more 'theologically', to the extent that it makes sense to separate the two to distinguish between, e.g., "Pi-aspasmos" (referring to the literal part of the liturgy known in English as the "Kiss of Peace" or "Apostolic Kiss", depending on the English translation you consult) and "pimairomi" (the Coptic for "philanthropos", which is also used in our hymns).

What it would contain is essentially what you see in those two glossaries above. There differences in terminology between the Coptic and Greek orthodox liturgical traditions. For example, there are a number of terms specific to Psalmody, such as the Verses of Incense, the Psali Watos and so on, and even within the Liturgy itself, we have some interesting uses of Greek terminology specific to the Alexandrian liturgical heritage. For example, when the Book of Acts is read, it is called the Praxis. Some Eastern Orthodox spell the Synaxarion the Synaxarium, and Western Christians would need to know in either case that that book is somewhat akin to a martyrology. Then there is the role of the Morning and Evening Raising of Incense, which are relics of a Cathedral Office, and the Hours are of course an intense, and, except during Holy Week, invariant monastic system of reciting the Psalms and certain Gospels, and the Psalmody represents the kind of sung part of the Divine Office that is particularly rich in dogma, analogous to Matins in the Byzantine Rite in terms of content but structurally a bit more like Nocturns.

 

[Rose_bud]

Voudon is specifically documented at the beginning of Part 3 of Around the World in 80 Faiths presented by Fr. Peter Owen-Jones of the Church of England, and i should warn you, this video is not for the squeamish, as it depicts the particularly disgusting practices of pointless animal slaughter that they engage in, but if you view this, and then compare it with the other religions of Africa depicted in this video, such as Ethiopian Orthodoxy which the video concludes with, or even the silly Rastafarian religion, you will see why I am so adamantly opposed to Voudon and its derivatives.

Be advised, this video is NSFW and exceedingly gross, but this is the reality of what Voodoo worship is. A bizarre blend of Paganism and Shamanist superstition combined with the theurgical practices of the occult. I placed the link in a Spoiler container below:

Spoiler

I admit I didn't watch the full video, just snippets. But see my comments on the previous post.

I may be incorrect but at first glance a foreigner commenting on African religions. Kenyan born Anglican priest and philosopher, John Mbiti's work critiques the tendency of Western scholars to impose their own perspectives and interpretations on African traditional religions, without fully understanding or respecting the cultural context and nuances. He argues that African religions should be studied and understood on their own terms, rather than being judged or evaluated through a Western lens.

 

[The Liturgist]

I appreciate your views on the Voudon religion and its practices. While it's important to respect local religions and cultural beliefs, it's also understandable to criticize or disagree with certain aspects of a belief system that may be harmful or contradictory to one's own values.

However there is a difference between Voudo/n and voodoo.

"Vodou originated in the ancient kingdom of Dahomey (present-day Nigeria, Benin, and Togo) and derives from the Fon word for "God" or "Spirit." Other accurate spellings include Vodun, Vodoun, but never voodoo, the sensationalist and derogatory Western creation.
Vodou is a comprehensive system of knowledge that has nothing to do with simplistic and erroneous images such as sticking pins into dolls, putting a hex on an adversary, or turning innocents into zombies. It is an organized form of communal support that provides meaning to the human experience in relation to the natural and supernatural forces of the universe". ( From an African source).

I think Voudo/Vodou and Voodoo are two different things (based on the African source of information), the latter having no similarities with the Christian faith.

Many African religions do share similarities with the Old Testament sacrificial system, and syncretism often occurs when different religious traditions intersect. The connection to ancestral practices and beliefs is strong in many African cultures, and animal sacrifices are often used for cleansing, rites of passage, and appeasing ancestors.

It's important to recognize that these beliefs and practices are deeply rooted in cultural and religious heritage, and understanding the context and significance of these traditions is crucial.

Reading the Bible in its entirety and understanding the historical and cultural context of animal sacrifices in the Old Testament and how it has been fulfilled in Christ, can help to clarify the significance of these practices and how they differ from modern-day animal sacrifices in African religions.

I understand your concerns about Voudon and other religions that may pose public health risks or promote harmful practices. However, banning a religion outright raises complex ethical and legal questions, even in countries with established churches or limited free speech protections.

Instead of a blanket ban, many countries address specific harmful practices or activities through targeted laws and regulations. It's important to engage in respectful discussions with religious leaders, health experts, and the community to better understand the complex issues involved.

Voodoo is merely an even more vulgar derivative of Voudon. But it is Voudon, the perverse religion of the Dahomey Kingdom, which was always rejected by the Akan people of Ghana, and the Ewe of Ghana have come to detest it as well following their conversion to Christianity. Vodon is seriously unpopular in Ghana, where it is synonymous with witchcraft. It is only really in Benin where you see it out in the open and even promoted by the national government as a form of national identity, presumably because they fear assimilation, but the risk they are running is of violence from the Muslims of Northern Nigeria, who are brutal.

 

[dzheremi]

I admit I didn't watch the full video, just snippets. But see my comments on the previous post.

I may be incorrect but at first glance a foreigner commenting on African religions. John Mbiti's work critiques the tendency of Western scholars to impose their own perspectives and interpretations on African traditional religions, without fully understanding or respecting the cultural context and nuances. He argues that African religions should be studied and understood on their own terms, rather than being judged or evaluated through a Western lens.

And if other Africans who aren't judging from a "western lens" in the first place also judge these things as unacceptable, what then? I know as certainly as I can without even having to look it up that the practices and theology of 'traditional African religions' do not fly with the Orthodox in Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Sudan, despite the fact that they come from those same cultures and may even retain some level of connection to the popular folk-religion of the area in a more general way, sort of like the popularity of curanderas and other forms of folk healers in the largely-Catholic Spanish-speaking world. Should they be doing that? No. Does that make them not Catholic/Orthodox anymore? Ehhh...let's just say that they should probably meet with their father of confession or another trusted authority within the Church regarding whatever it is that is causing them to seek out folk-healings in the first place, as there's nothing that an old lady with a bowl of resin and chinchilla fur or whatever can do for them that relying on the One God that there actually is cannot.

 

[The Liturgist]

I may be incorrect but at first glance a foreigner commenting on African religions. John Mbiti's work critiques the tendency of Western scholars to impose their own perspectives and interpretations on African traditional religions, without fully understanding or respecting the cultural context and nuances. He argues that African religions should be studied and understood on their own terms, rather than being judged or evaluated through a Western lens.

Well my perspective is that all non-Christian religions are false, but I really don’t have time for a religion which strangles dogs and cats just to send messages to a demon (we know from Psalm 95 v. 5 LXX that “the gods of the gentiles are demons” and this explains how the various idols took their shape), and which kills countless animals, many of whom are endangered, because of the demand for parts of their anatomy to be used as fetishes, much like the hunting of the Northern White Rhino for use of its horn as an aphrodisiac has driven that species to functional extinction.

Even Fr. Peter Owen-Jones, who is rather too tolerant I would say, and on several occasions engaged in inadvisable participation with various religions, including Wicca, found Voudon utterly repulsive.

 

[Rose_bud]

Voodoo is merely an even more vulgar derivative of Voudon. But it is Voudon, the perverse religion of the Dahomey Kingdom, which was always rejected by the Akan people of Ghana, and the Ewe of Ghana have come to detest it as well following their conversion to Christianity. Vodon is seriously unpopular in Ghana, where it is synonymous with witchcraft. It is only really in Benin where you see it out in the open and even promoted by the national government as a form of national identity, presumably because they fear assimilation, but the risk they are running is of violence from the Muslims of Northern Nigeria, who are brutal.

And as I indicated earlier, your views are noted.

 

[Rose_bud]

And if other Africans who aren't judging from a "western lens" in the first place also judge these things as unacceptable, what then? I know as certainly as I can without even having to look it up that the practices and theology of 'traditional African religions' do not fly with the Orthodox in Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Sudan, despite the fact that they come from those same cultures and may even retain some level of connection to the popular folk-religion of the area in a more general way, sort of like the popularity of curanderas and other forms of folk healers in the largely-Catholic Spanish-speaking world. Should they be doing that? No. Does that make them not Catholic/Orthodox anymore? Ehhh...let's just say that they should probably meet with their father of confession or another trusted authority within the Church regarding whatever it is that is causing them to seek out folk-healings in the first place, as there's nothing that an old lady with a bowl of resin and chinchilla fur or whatever can do for them that relying on the One God that there actually is cannot.

I agree. It's important to acknowledge that within African cultures, there are diverse perspectives and beliefs, and not all individuals or communities may accept or condone certain practices or beliefs.

Hence my argument stands, that not all African religions can be regarded as "evil" , "pagan" and all the other derogatory words without understanding them. Especially not from someone who did a one time trip to Africa met with a few people from that faith then judged it as irrelevant.

This approach has done more harm than good to the gospel message.

The importance of cultural sensitivity and nuanced understanding is crucial in sharing the Gospel message. The approach taken by Paul in Acts 17, where he engaged with the Athenians and acknowledged their beliefs while sharing the supremacy of the one True God, the message of Christ, is an excellent framework for interfaith dialogue and understanding.

By taking the time to learn about and appreciate the beliefs and practices of others, we can build bridges of understanding and share the love of Christ in a way that is respectful and relatable.

 

[Rose_bud]

While I can appreciate what I'm reading here, I think there might be a certain danger in this way of thinking that separates the relatively more simple rural church from the cathedral and makes one into a fundamentally different experience than the other. In Africa, just like literally everywhere else on the planet, most Churches have both humble parish churches and grand cathedrals, and churches of various sizes or with various different layouts and architectural designs, depending on what is traditional to them. Since Africa was one of the incubators of the Christian faith (our apostle and master St. Mark being by birth and culture a Hellenized Libyan Jew; the 70 translators to whom we owe the particular form of our Old Testament being from among the learned Jewish community at Alexandria in the time before the incarnation of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ; etc.), some of these particular physical and liturgical forms of church are incredibly old and well-attested, as is the case with regard to the Orthodox Tewahedo of Ethiopia and Eritrea, or their mother Church, that of the Egyptians/Copts.

Everything that follows from the interaction of the western Christian and the peoples of Africa is, if I may be so blunt, just as much (if not more so) a reflection of the western Christians' presuppositions about Africa and Africans as it is anything to do with actual African Christianity. I personally greatly dislike the term "hut" due to the conjuring in the western mind of a sort of primitiveness when African Christians and African Christianity are anything but primitive (e.g., the Orthodox Tewahedo of the Axumite Empire of East Africa were worshipping Christ our God together with His good Father and the Holy Spirit when the ancestors of a great many European-descended people, including myself, were still worshipping rocks and trees; NB: the first English king to accept baptism, Æthelberht of Kent, did so c. 601 AD, nearly three centuries after the conversion of Ezana of Axum, c. 330), but since the reference has been made to clay huts as places of worship, it should be noted that the Orthodox Tewahedo are known for their unique round churches with thatched roofs, as you can see in this video (together with other types of construction):

They are just much rightly known for ornate cathedrals such as the Holy Trinity Cathedral in Addis Ababa:

If one of these is better, or more humbling, or more authentic or whatever then the other, that's not something I've heard from any of the actual African Christians I've ever worshipped with (and this is as a member of the first Church to ever be planted on the African continent) -- not just Ethiopians and Eritreans, but also people from Sudan, Togo, Tanzania, and surely elsewhere that I am not remembering.

I think you have misunderstood my point, (possibly I was not clear)

I am not advocating for either one being better than the other, infact quite the opposite, they are equally beautiful. The more elaborate, ornate church structures, and the simplicity of a 'hut' even as a primitive word. The thatched roofs and circular structures blend seamlessly into the natural landscape, reflecting a profound connection with the land that God gives and a sense of community. Which is a deeply African concept.

God cannot be limited to buildings, but how we express his gift of being creative in how we build with the resources available does bring Him honour.

 

[The Liturgist]

Hence my argument stands, that not all African religions can be regarded as "evil" , "pagan" and all the other derogatory words without understanding them. Especially not from someone who did a one time trip to Africa met with a few people from that faith then judged it as irrelevant.

Well I lived in West Africa and am myself a Christian clergyman, although I was not there in a missionary capacity, but I attended at the time a church with an entirely African congregation other than myself, albeit it was a rather good traditional Presbyterian church. And the views I am sharing with you are those of the Ghanaian people, just as what @dzheremi is sharing with you are the views of the Orthodox Christians of Africa.

I can definitely assert that the Christians of West Africa regard Voudon as evil, and I don’t think there’s any way you can morally justify its practices. I am not aware of any other surviving primitive religion that sacrifices animals for purposes other than food consumption and that puts a high price on the anatomical components of endangered species. There is also the aspect of having to buy these things from fetish dealers, which is itself perverse. Most religions, African or otherwise, make the blessings they offer available for free.

I think your idea that only Africans can evaluate the morality of African religions is itself absurd, even though you have been told, by myself and by dzheremi, what African Christians think of these beliefs, but the idea that I can’t objectively refer to voudon as evil but an African could would suggest that Africans are subject to a different moral code than persons of other ethnicities.

But I declare voudon evil on the same grounds that I declare European Paganism to be evil, i am joined in declaring it evil by the Christians I knew during my time in West Africa, who are extremely pious Christians, and for the same reasons, and likewise, the Orthodox Church in Egypt and Ethiopia experiences these as one single continuum. And what you are also ignoring is the historical fact that Voodoo as practiced in the United States represents the direct continuation of Voudon in Africa.

 

[The Liturgist]

I am not advocating for either one being better than the other, infact quite the opposite, they are equally beautiful. The more elaborate, ornate church structures, and the simplicity of a 'hut' even as a primitive word. The thatched roofs and circular structures blend seamlessly into the natural landscape, reflecting a profound connection with the land that God gives and a sense of community. Which is a deeply African concept

Community and a profound connection with the land are not uniquely African ideas. The people of Africa should not be romanticized or made the subject of some kind of mythology. They should be admired, where they have embraced Christianity, whether in the first century in the case of the Coptic Orthodox Christians, the fourth century in the case of the Ethiopian Orthodox Christians (who converted from Judaism) or more recent centuries in the case of West African Christians, for their intense piety.

But aside from that, we are engaging in a kind of psuedo-Orientalissm if we start attributing unique qualities to African cultures, which vary widely, by the way, even in Sub-Saharan Africa. For example, the culture of Somalia has, since the beginning of the civil war, degenerated into an extremely violent and brutal system, and Somali terrorists routinely wreak havoc in Kenya and other neighboring countries. The areas of Rwanda, the Eastern Congo and Burundi suffer from bitter ethnic conflicts, and this also exists to a lesser extent in Malawi. And there are issues with every African society which realistically must be addressed. What I like about West Africa, and especially Ghana, and to a lesser extent Togo and Cote d’Ivoire, is the progress being made, but then we have Nigeria, which would be a lovely country were it not for the criminal gangs in the south and the Islamic fundamentalists in the north.

 

[dzheremi]

I am personally fine with leaving evaluation of African traditional religions to Africans, but this is because I know that we are the first Church of Africa, so all of our bishops -- just like all of their brothers in the Orthodox churches of East Africa -- are very much qualified to do so, as they have done so since the beginning of our religion. St. Mark, who again was a Hellenized Libyan Jew, is not called "the destroyer of idols" in our Coptic tradition for nothing!

 

[Rose_bud]

Well I lived in West Africa and am myself a Christian clergyman, although I was not there in a missionary capacity, but I attended at the time a church with an entirely African congregation other than myself, albeit it was a rather good traditional Presbyterian church. And the views I am sharing with you are those of the Ghanaian people, just as what @dzheremi is sharing with you are the views of the Orthodox Christians of Africa.

I can definitely assert that the Christians of West Africa regard Voudon as evil, and I don’t think there’s any way you can morally justify its practices. I am not aware of any other surviving primitive religion that sacrifices animals for purposes other than food consumption and that puts a high price on the anatomical components of endangered species. There is also the aspect of having to buy these things from fetish dealers, which is itself perverse. Most religions, African or otherwise, make the blessings they offer available for free.

I think your idea that only Africans can evaluate the morality of African religions is itself absurd, even though you have been told, by myself and by dzheremi, what African Christians think of these beliefs, but the idea that I can’t objectively refer to voudon as evil but an African could would suggest that Africans are subject to a different moral code than persons of other ethnicities.

But I declare voudon evil on the same grounds that I declare European Paganism to be evil, i am joined in declaring it evil by the Christians I knew during my time in West Africa, who are extremely pious Christians, and for the same reasons, and likewise, the Orthodox Church in Egypt and Ethiopia experiences these as one single continuum. And what you are also ignoring is the historical fact that Voodoo as practiced in the United States represents the direct continuation of Voudon in Africa.

I appreciate your response and your differing view. I happen to hold a different one.

I'm glad your travels to Africa was informative and that you got to spend some time with an African congregation.

As I indicated I hold that African religions are complex and multifaceted, and it's essential to approach them with nuance and sensitivity. Painting them with a broad brush oversimplifies their richness and diversity, and can lead to misunderstanding and stereotyping.

I disagree with your comment regarding the African voice and find it disrespectful. I contend that Africans should be at the forefront of evaluating and representing their own religions, cultures, and belief systems.

Tthere is a significant body of scholarly work that critiques the way African religions have been approached and represented by those from non-African backgrounds. It's crucial to recognize the historical marginalization, stigma, and misrepresentation that have occurred due to this approach. Many have challenged these biases and advocated for a more nuanced and respectful approach to African religions. Their work has helped to decentralize Western perspectives and amplify African voices in the study of African religions and in theological dialogue.

 

[Rose_bud]

Community and a profound connection with the land are not uniquely African ideas.

You misunderstood I did not say it was unique. I said it was a deeply African.

 

[The Liturgist]

I appreciate your response and your differing view. I happen to hold a different one.

It’s not just my view i shared with you, it is the view of the Christians in West Africa, which I happen to share. It is also the view of the Muslims. The difference is that, like the Christians, I am opposed to killing off practitioners of Voudon. But converting them is a high priority.

As I indicated I hold that African religions are complex and multifaceted, and it's essential to approach them with nuance and sensitivity. Painting them with a broad brush oversimplifies their richness and diversity, and can lead to misunderstanding and stereotyping.

This is ordinarily the case, but Voudon is basically equivalent to Satanism. It is on a par with the evil Aztec and Mayan human sacrifice religions.

And why should we be sensitive to heathen religions? Christ came to destroy the demonic idols and free us from such spiritual oppression and mortality. All forms of superstition, whether atheism, or agnosticism, or Paganism, or Islam, are ultimately impediments to the salvation of souls via Christ and it should be the goal of the Church to eradicate them, while preserving, where appropriate, certain cultural aspects. But in the case of the Yoruba ethnic group, contemporary Voudon with its fetish markets and mindless slaughter of kittens and puppies has not contributed in any substantial or beneficial way to the richness of their culture.
If you had travelled to West Africa, you would be, I hope, as delighted as I was by the pure and unadulterated Christian piety of the people, which is cause for rejoicing. Voudon is an ugly religion of witchdoctors and pointless animal sacrifice that the government of Benin ought to ban rather than to encourage, and it is directly related to those religions of the Carribean and Southern United States that are known as Voodoo. For example, the idea of remotely harming someone or controlling them is widely practiced in Voudon and is what many of the fetishes for sale in their market are intended to accomplish. The use of fetishes is one of the central beliefs in Voudon, along with animal sacrifice to various Pagan deities. I would argue the religions of the Southern US and the Carribean might be an improvement on Voudon, since the Pagan aspect is weakened with mainly the Shamanist aspect remaining, and in the case of Juju and Houdou, we see a syncretism with Christianity, in which the Bible has replaced the traditional West African mythological system. But it is still vile.

I would challenge you to name one specifically good thing about the Voudon religion of Benin, just one thing Voudon does that objectively benefits their society and that would cause harm if that religion were to be either totally suppressed or pushed to the fringes and replaced with a mix of Christianity and Islam, like what one sees in Ghana, which has one of the healthiest economies and probably the most stable government in sub-Saharan Africa.

 

[The Liturgist]

I disagree with your comment regarding the African voice and find it disrespectful. I contend that Africans should be at the forefront of evaluating and representing their own religions, cultures, and belief systems.

I have specifically expressed the views of West Africans. But insofar as other religions of Africa are not Christian, they cause real spiritual harm. This is a central tenet of Christianity - that we are to baptize all nations. Not patronize them by encouraging them to evaluate and represent their heathen religious views.

Unless of course you are taking a Universalist approach, that is to say, arguing that belief in Christ is optional and not essential to salvation, and that the religions of Africa offer a meaningful way of salvation.

 

[The Liturgist]

I disagree with your comment regarding the African voice and find it disrespectful.

I have no objection to the African voice. I have an objection to the continued existence of non-Christian religious systems, particularly in West Africa, which is a bastion of Christian piety. In Christianity, we venerate those who were responsible for the conversion of various nations away from their indigenous belief systems. St. Gregory of Illuminator led Armenians to Christ. St. Nino, an Armenian princess, led the people of Georgia to Christ. St. Augustine of Canterbury is venerated for converting the Angles and Jutes who had conquered Britannia to Christianity. St. Vladimir the Great is venerated for leading his people, the Kievan Rus, to embrace Christianity. And St. Thomas the Apostle is venerated together with his disciples Saints Addai and Mari for spreading the Gospel to, and establishing the Church in the city of Edessa, in Nineveh and Seleucia-Cstesiphon and the rest of Mesopotamia, and in Kerala, India (which is why to this day the Christians of the Malabar Coast are known as Mar Thoma Christians). St. Mark is known for the conversion of Egypt. And in the case of the conversion of Ethiopia, in addition to St. Philip the Deacon and St. Frumentius, there are several other noteworthy figures, such as the Seven Syrian Sages who taught the Ethiopians the liturgical system they presently use (since Ethiopia speaks a Semitic language, it was presumably easier for them to communicate with Syriac Aramaic speakers, and the result is that the Ethiopian liturgical texts have a noticeable similarity to those of the West Syriac RIte, although the visual style and music of the Ethiopian liturgy is completely different, with such unique practices as the beautiful use of umbrellas to protect the Eucharist and the sacred icons and relics.

For that matter, the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe and its Aztec painter, St. Juan Diego, is venerated for the vital role it played in the conversion of the people of the country now known as Mexico, which at the time was called New Spain, Mexico referring to the area now known as the Distrito Federal, around Mexico City, away from the very unpleasant human sacrifice religions they practiced, and to Christianity.

In all of these couuntries except Ethiopia, which was Jewish, the prevailing religion was some form of Paganism, in many cases a very unpleasant form of Paganism (the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has the highest ratio of descendants of practitioners of Judaism of any Christian church, exceeding even the very large number one finds in the Antiochian Orthodox Church, the Melkite Catholic Church, the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Syriac Catholic Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the Chaldean Catholic Church, and the Mar Thoma Christians, which include an endogamous group that is descended from shipwrecked Jews who converted to Christianity in thanksgiving for their survival when their ship wrecked en route to Kerala around 400 AD).

For that matter, St. Helena, the mother of St. Constantine, influenced her son to embrace Christianity rather than continuing in the pointless observation of Roman state religion and the vicious persecution begun under Emperor Diocletian, who transformed the Roman Empire from a parliamentary Principate to an absolutist Dominate (which it remained, and this caused yet another violent persecution of Christians when St. Constantine’s son Constantius was persuaded by Eusebius of Nicomedia to convert to the Arian religion which had been anathematized at the Council of Nicaea over which his father had presided, but after the death of Emperor Valens, the Arian persecutions from the Imperial government had stopped, although Ostrogoths and Visigoths, many of whom had migrated to North Africa, then began to attack and kill the Christian population of the Western Empire, which ultimately led to a complete genocide of the once-massive Christian population in those West African countries known as the Maghreb, where Christianity disappeared until it was reintroduced by European powers such as France and Italy (who alas also introduced various oppressions which had a negative impact on the lives of North Africans). Also, the Numidian Orthodox Church was exterminated by Islam. I am opposed to Islam for the same reason that I am opposed to Voudon.

Also, I would note, the Voudon presence in Benin is actually a security risk for the country, because Islam has zero tolerance for religions other than Christianity, Judaism, and a lost religion known as Sabianism, which for the sake of their own survival, the Mandaens of Iraq had to claim to be (they are a Gnostic sect centered around reverence for St. John the Baptist, that historically viewed our Lord as a false prophet, although lately they have been trying to downplay this aspect of their theology). The existence of a large heathen community within Benin creates a situation where an Islamist regime, which could easily appear in the region, for example, if a portion of Northern Nigeria broke away due to the Islamic State, or if a militant islamist dictatorship came to power in Niger or Burkina Faso, it gives them, under Islamic law, a reason to invade Benin and oppress the local population.

Thus I am very interested to see if you can name one good thing that the Voudon religion uniquely contributes to the people of Benin, or for that matter, Togo, where it is also practiced, albeit not to the same extent as in Benin.

 

[Rose_bud]

It’s not just my view i shared with you, it is the view of the Christians in West Africa, which I happen to share. It is also the view of the Muslims. The difference is that, like the Christians, I am opposed to killing off practitioners of Voudon. But converting them is a high priority.



This is ordinarily the case, but Voudon is basically equivalent to Satanism. It is on a par with the evil Aztec and Mayan human sacrifice religions.

And why should we be sensitive to heathen religions? Christ came to destroy the demonic idols and free us from such spiritual oppression and mortality. All forms of superstition, whether atheism, or agnosticism, or Paganism, or Islam, are ultimately impediments to the salvation of souls via Christ and it should be the goal of the Church to eradicate them, while preserving, where appropriate, certain cultural aspects. But in the case of the Yoruba ethnic group, contemporary Voudon with its fetish markets and mindless slaughter of kittens and puppies has not contributed in any substantial or beneficial way to the richness of their culture.
If you had travelled to West Africa, you would be, I hope, as delighted as I was by the pure and unadulterated Christian piety of the people, which is cause for rejoicing. Voudon is an ugly religion of witchdoctors and pointless animal sacrifice that the government of Benin ought to ban rather than to encourage, and it is directly related to those religions of the Carribean and Southern United States that are known as Voodoo. For example, the idea of remotely harming someone or controlling them is widely practiced in Voudon and is what many of the fetishes for sale in their market are intended to accomplish. The use of fetishes is one of the central beliefs in Voudon, along with animal sacrifice to various Pagan deities. I would argue the religions of the Southern US and the Carribean might be an improvement on Voudon, since the Pagan aspect is weakened with mainly the Shamanist aspect remaining, and in the case of Juju and Houdou, we see a syncretism with Christianity, in which the Bible has replaced the traditional West African mythological system. But it is still vile.

I would challenge you to name one specifically good thing about the Voudon religion of Benin, just one thing Voudon does that objectively benefits their society and that would cause harm if that religion were to be either totally suppressed or pushed to the fringes and replaced with a mix of Christianity and Islam, like what one sees in Ghana, which has one of the healthiest economies and probably the most stable government in sub-Saharan Africa.

And I reiterate now for the third time, your view is noted. Mine differs which I will not rehash again, but redirect you to my previous posts.

Noting your desire to convert... I'll state this again.

Missionaries who approach African religions with mutual respect, cultural sensitivity, and a willingness to learn and understand the nuances of these belief systems will be more successful in building meaningful relationships and fostering constructive dialogue. Thereby building trust and credibility as ambassadors of the gospel message.

 

[Rose_bud]

I have specifically expressed the views of West Africans. But insofar as other religions of Africa are not Christian, they cause real spiritual harm. This is a central tenet of Christianity - that we are to baptize all nations. Not patronize them by encouraging them to evaluate and represent their heathen religious views.

Unless of course you are taking a Universalist approach, that is to say, arguing that belief in Christ is optional and not essential to salvation, and that the religions of Africa offer a meaningful way of salvation.

And once more I have acknowledged your views on them. I have disagreed with your approach and have referred you to consider the various African scholarship who have written on how to best engage this topic. Which you have all the freedom to ignore.

I am not intending to beat this horse. And will not be goaded into discussion about whether or not I believe the salvation of Christ is optional as of if misrepresented the supremacy of Christ.