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What is the firmament

trophy33

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It's funny when this or similar topics arise we can say, "It's an ancient cosmological concept." When we study other parts of the Old Testament do we say, "Those were ancient stories; They were ancient people; "These were ancient traditions and laws." ...and then also say "Such ancient teachings and ancient books are not relevant anymore, they don't exist in today's modern world!?"
These books are relevant today, when we use them properly, i.e. in their cultural context. Indeed, their relevance for a modern reader does not need to be the same as for the original reader, thats only natural. We think differently, live differently.

Nothing funny about that, it applies to almost everything. Learning what it means instead of inventing what it means (exegesis instead of eisegesis) is a basic rule with any reading.
 
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Job 33:6

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View attachment 350767

God sets the sun, moon & all the stars IN the firmament


We read in Amos 9:6..

View attachment 350765

King James Bible
And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

King James Bible
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

King James Bible
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

King James Bible
Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

Psalm 104:5

He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.


So what are your views on the Firmament ?
The firmament is a solid sky dome of ancient near east cosmology.
 
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trophy33

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The firmament is a solid sky dome of ancient near east cosmology.
This channel has quite good and informative videos. Its also great that the author has relevant education in the field.
 
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Apple Sky

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Can't all be wrong surely..........

a fimament.jpg
 
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trophy33

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Can't all be wrong surely..........

View attachment 350868
Why not?

Instead, I would say - God could not inspire all of them. It is not an inspired revelation from God, obviously, the ancient Hebrews only used the already existing ancient cosmology.
 
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Paul4JC

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These books are relevant today, when we use them properly, i.e. in their cultural context. Indeed, their relevance for a modern reader does not need to be the same as for the original reader, thats only natural. We think differently, live differently.

Nothing funny about that, it applies to almost everything. Learning what it means instead of inventing what it means (exegesis instead of eisegesis) is a basic rule with any reading.
What exegesis are you using when you try to trump the Bible with Science?
 
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Paul4JC

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Why not?

Instead, I would say - God could not inspire all of them. Its obviously not an inspired revelation from God, the ancient Hebrews only used the already existing ancient cosmology.
Who are "the Hebrews"? Bible authors didn't borrow from anyone. [2Ti 3:16 NIV] All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, It doesn't say "scripture is borrowed" from other cultures. Also, it doesn't "some scripture is God-breathed,"

I don't think many Christians today fully understand their Bibles. Sadly they depend on science to explain history to them.


[1Co 3:1c-2 NIV] --mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

[Gen 11:1, 9 NIV] Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.

Biblically, cultures don't develop until after the Babel event. Before that, it was all one language. Noah had all the necessary antediluvian revelation and information on the Ark and passed it down. After Babel, Noah's great-grandsons went in different directions and the seventy nations came to be.

[Gen 11:9 NIV] That is why it was called Babel--because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.


When they explain the old stories they had passed down to them, post Babel, now with language change the stories change, yet retain some of the original context, but not all. Hence the worldwide flood views.

All mythologies reflect a lot of truth and a lot of confusion. Only the Bible has the true stories and explanations, including the firmament and cosmology.


[Job 37:18 ESV] Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

Notice there is no word atmosphere in the Bible.
 
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trophy33

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Bible authors didn't borrow from anyone.
If you will learn about the material used in the Bible, you will see that they used many concepts that were common in their geographical area - in Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria etc.

They used it for a different theological message, but they did not live on an isolated island, they were no Atlantis with some genius scientific knowledge different from their neighbors.

If somebody believe that the firmament and flat earth is inspired, then such a person must believe that also Egyptians or Babylonians were inspired, because they had the same cosmology and they had it first.
 
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Paul4JC

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If you will learn about the material used in the Bible, you will see that they used many concepts that were common in their geographical area - in Egypt, Babylonia etc.

They used it for a different theological message, but they did not live on an isolated island, they were no Atlantis with some genius scientific knowledge different from their neighbors.

If somebody believe that the firmament and flat earth is inspired, then such a person must believe that also Egyptians, Babylonians etc were inspired, because they had the same cosmology.
I gave you Scripture, which you ignored. What are you giving me? Have you even read the whole Bible once? Looks like you believe in Science and secular History more than the Bible. Respond to the verses I gave you or we are wasting time.
 
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trophy33

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I gave you Scripture, which you ignored. What are you giving me?
Education.

Have you even read the whole Bible once?
Oh yeah. I do not know if I read every single verse, like in Isaiah, Jeremiah or Psalms, but its possible. I began to read three Czech translations of the Bible in my childhood - a literal, reformation one (Bible Kralická), a more modern, dynamic one (The Czech Ecumenical Bible) and then Nová Bible Kralická (which was Bible Kralická in modern Czech).

Around high school, I began to learn biblical Greek to read the New Testament in its original language. I studied what Greek version should I use - the traditional western Textus Receptus text (the one which is behind Bible Kralická or for example KJV) or the eastern traditional majority text (used in orthodox churches) or the minority text - Nestlé Aland - that is produced by Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft and is behind the majority of todays translations?

After some learning I decided for the traditional reformation text - The Textus Receptus. So I ordered one (Scrivener's version). I learned much of my Greek reading skills in this first Greek edition I owned. Then I found out that the Scrivener's version is just a back translation from the KJV and not really the text behind Bible Kralická and other traditional European reformation translations. So I downloaded Stephanus and Beza versions differences and tried to compare them.

However, some time around that I began to incline to believe that the majority text used in the eastern church is the one I should read, the "better majority text without Latin back-translations for example in Revelation) . So I used Robinson-Pierpont version for a while.

After some more study though (I was constantly learning about texts and manuscripts) realized that the arguments for traditional texts are not so strong I believed and kind of switched to the "minority, scholarly text" instead - Nestlé Aland 27/28. I use this text till today.

Regarding the Old Testament, I read the Masoretic text, as almost everybody, because its behind the western Bibles. However, when I saw many differences between the Old Tstament and the Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, I studied why it is. I realized that the New Testament is quoting the Hellenistic form of the Old Testament, not the Masoretic one. Therefore, I started to read Septuagint - first Brenton online and then I bought NETS. I also try to read some easier places in Septuagint in Greek (I bought Rahlfs printed edition).

Sadly, even Septuagint has several textual versions (the Old Greek, Theodotion) and we also have the dead sea scrolls which sometimes agree with the Septuagint, sometimes seem to be a proto-masoretic text and sometimes stand alone.

Regarding English translations, I read NIV and BSB, mostly because I got NIV in a printed version in church and because BSB is free to download as epub. However, for the sake of online conversations/discussions, I almost exclusively use biblehub.com, which provides also original texts, parallel translations, dictionary and more.

I also read the Septuagint wider canon of books, but mostly in Czech. I also read the writings that were considered by some first churches to be inspired, but did not make it to the medieval canon, like for example Didache, The book of Henoch or the Shepherd of Hermas.

What about you?


Looks like you believe in Science and secular History more than the Bible.
After my journey, I could ask "what Bible"? However, I do not believe something is "more" or "less", its all about studying and growing in knowledge. Truth can be found in many places and in many ways. And also mistakes.

Respond to the verses I gave you or we are wasting time.
I did not invite you to participate in the conversation. If you feel you are wasting time, you can leave.

I will respond to the first one, to demonstrate to you that you are shooting bible verses before looking at them carefully.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
- its a statement of Paul, declaring that all Scripture is God-breathed (not God-dictated) and useful for moral purposes (not for history or modern Western science)

If some fundamentalists try to abuse this verse and to claim that every word in their specific Bible is from God and useful for science or cosmology, they neither read the text properly nor do they understand what Paul meant.
 
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Paul4JC

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You must know the greek for this verse then about the Apostles.[Act 4:13 NIV] When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus
Oh yeah. I do not know if I read every single verse, like in Isaiah, Jeremiah or Psalms, but its possible. I began to read three Czech translations of the Bible in my childhood - a literal, reformation one (Bible Kralická), a more modern, dynamic one (The Czech Ecumenical Bible) and then Nová Bible Kralická (which was Bible Kralická in modern Czech).

Around high school, I began to learn biblical Greek to read the New Testament in its original language. I studied what Greek version should I use - the traditional western Textus Receptus text (the one which is behind Bible Kralická or for example KJV) or the eastern traditional majority text (used in orthodox churches) or the minority text - Nestlé Aland - that is produced by Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft and is behind the majority of todays translations?

After some learning I decided for the traditional reformation text - The Textus Receptus. So I ordered one (Scrivener's version). I learned much of my Greek reading skills in this first Greek edition I owned. Then I found out that the Scrivener's version is just a back translation from the KJV and not really the text behind Bible Kralická and other traditional European reformation translations. So I downloaded Stephanus and Beza versions differences and tried to compare them.

However, some time around that I began to incline to believe that the majority text used in the eastern church is the one I should read, the "better majority text without Latin back-translations for example in Revelation) . So I used Robinson-Pierpont version for a while.

After some more study though (I was constantly learning about texts and manuscripts) realized that the arguments for traditional texts are not so strong I believed and kind of switched to the "minority, scholarly text" instead - Nestlé Aland 27/28. I use this text till today.

Regarding the Old Testament, I read the Masoretic text, as almost everybody, because its behind the western Bibles. However, when I saw many differences between the Old Tstament and the Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, I studied why it is. I realized that the New Testament is quoting the Hellenistic form of the Old Testament, not the Masoretic one. Therefore, I started to read Septuagint - first Brenton online and then I bought NETS. I also try to read some easier places in Septuagint in Greek (I bought Rahlfs printed edition).

Sadly, even Septuagint has several textual versions (the Old Greek, Theodotion) and we also have the dead sea scrolls which sometimes agree with the Septuagint, sometimes seem to be a proto-masoretic text and sometimes stand alone.

Regarding English translations, I read NIV and BSB, mostly because I got NIV in a printed version in church and because BSB is free to download as epub. However, for the sake of online conversations/discussions, I almost exclusively use biblehub.com, which provides also original texts, parallel translations, dictionary and more.

I also read the Septuagint wider canon of books, but mostly in Czech. I also read the writings that were considered by some first churches to be inspired, but did not make it to the medieval canon, like for example Didache, The book of Henoch or the Shepherd of Hermas.
Why don't you apply it here then? The OP was about a Bible verse.
What about you?
I'm still learning. I came to Christ when I was 19, 40 years ago. That was by reading the gospel of John. Then I read the whole Bible in 3 months. I used to read it twice a year, so have read it at least 60-70 times. NIV1984 was my choice, but I've gone through various versions over the years. Then I have my list of books. Was in the mission field for over a decade. That's part of my small resume.
After my journey, I could ask "what Bible"? However, I do not believe something is "more" or "less", its all about studying and growing in knowledge. Truth can be found in many places and in many ways. And also mistakes.


I did not invite you to participate in the conversation. If you feel you are wasting time, you can leave.
Interesting statement you are making, and a bit arrogant.
I will respond to the first one, to demonstrate to you that you are shooting bible verses before looking at them carefully.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
- its a statement of Paul, declaring that all Scripture is God-breathed (not God-dictated) and useful for moral purposes (not for history or modern Western science)

If some fundamentalists try to abuse this verse and to claim that every word in their specific Bible is from God and useful for science or cosmology, they neither read the text properly nor do they understand what Paul meant.
I just trying to understand you. So you only believe parts of the Bible? You don't believe God inspired the whole Bible?

Do you believe it's for teaching, rebuking, and correcting or only for moral purposes?

I don't shoot verses. However, verses do always come to my mind all the time. For example. [2Pe 1:21 NIV] For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit?


I guess Wikipedia, not the Bible, is your go-to source.

Yeah, let's back to the OP.
 
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Paul4JC

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You are depending on science to provide you with a computer to make this statement.
My very first laptop was gifted to me when I was on the mission field, not by science!
 
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trophy33

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You must know the greek for this verse then about the Apostles.[Act 4:13 NIV] When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus
Good for the Apostles.

Interesting statement you are making, and a bit arrogant.
I do not think it was more arrogant than your words.

I just trying to understand you. So you only believe parts of the Bible? You don't believe God inspired the whole Bible?
I believe the main theological points throughout "all Scripture" are inspired, mainly monotheism and about Christ. I.e. the things distinguishing the Scriptures from other religions. I see no reason why the firmament, cosmology, age of the universe, places, times, common life details or Jewish history should be inspired and I see many reasons against that.

The flat earth or the firmament are not even unique enough - Egyptians, Babylonians and many other ancient nations had the same views, therefore they would need to be inspired first. Its not any special scientific revelation from God.

Do you believe it's for teaching, rebuking, and correcting or only for moral purposes?
Moral and theological purposes ("godly life") . Its not inspired in science or anything like that.

I don't shoot verses. However, verses do always come to my mind all the time. For example. [2Pe 1:21 NIV] For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
The ancient concept of the flat earth or of the firmament is not a prophecy.

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit?
Yes, thats a basic theology and a part of basic Christian creeds.
 
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Ace777

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I do not think it was more arrogant than your words.
People are pretty much always guilty of what they accuse others of. They cannot deal with the weakness in themselves so the project it out onto others. Even when people go to war and they realize that we are our own worst enemy.
1719986162838.png
 
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Paul4JC

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People are pretty much always guilty of what they accuse others of. They cannot deal with the weakness in themselves so the project it out onto others. Even when people go to war and they realize that we are our own worst enemy.
View attachment 351063
Look who's talking! Is this another picture of you?

If you had posted anything related to the OP, you should have stated. Otherwise, you are trolling.
 
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