Question to protestants about Faith Alone

[Cis.jd]

So i was watching a random video on youtube featuring a guy named Jeff Durbin, who I eventually researched and found out he is a sidekick to James White's (i think he is at least). Anyway, i found him to be the typical arrogant protestant who just dictates, accuses, and insists what Catholics believe him no matter what is being told to him. I was listening closely as to what he thinks about the whole faith by works, and how he eventually tries to brag and praise himself about how he is the one truly saved because being a christian. So he speaks about the 7 sacraments, purgatory, and just how faith alone is just biblically true and tries to bully random catholics about it.

Here is the video for your reference:

So my question is this. If protestants believe that strongly about faith alone, then why do they care so much to the point that they feel the need to throw out condemnation, judgment, and demonizing at us for how we practice and worship God? Us doing the wrong thing like the sacraments, praying to saints, and whatever wouldn't mean much anyway since it's all about faith alone, right?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I was born and raised in Massena, NY, about two miles from Quebec. Massena has just as many Catholics, if not more, than Protestants. My neighbors and schoolmates were Catholic. We all got along great! Some of my best friends and one steady girl were Catholic. My brother married a Catholic girl, and my stepmother was Catholic. I even attended mass on occasion. So when I read this kind of stuff, I don't know what you are talking about. I have some good CF friends who are Catholic. Do we agree on everything.... certainly not. But I can find fellowship in the things we agree on.

 

[Cis.jd]

I was born and raised in Massena, NY, about two miles from Quebec. Massena has just as many Catholics, if not more, than Protestants. My neighbors and schoolmates were Catholic. We all got along great! Some of my best friends and one steady girl were Catholic. I even attended mass on occasion. So when I read this kind of stuff, I don't know what you are talking about. I have some good CF friends who are Catholic. Do we agree on everything.... certainly not. But I can find fellowship in the things we agree on.

You are one of the good ones

 

[Offline4Better.]

I was born and raised in Massena, NY, about two miles from Quebec. Massena has just as many Catholics, if not more, than Protestants. My neighbors and schoolmates were Catholic. We all got along great! Some of my best friends and one steady girl were Catholic. My brother married a Catholic girl, and my stepmother was Catholic. I even attended mass on occasion. So when I read this kind of stuff, I don't know what you are talking about. I have some good CF friends who are Catholic. Do we agree on everything.... certainly not. But I can find fellowship in the things we agree on.

God bless your soul for respecting the other denominations such as Catholicism. Hey, both Catholics and Protestants are Christian, so I am glad that you have friends that are Catholic. I am Catholic myself, and respect Protestantism (by the way, the Pope has too much power). I take some Catholic things with a nuanced approach, such as faith and works. I believe faith is precedent to works, though works helps us solidify our faith.

A little word on faith:
Martin Luther said himself: "Good works are the seals and proof of faith, for even as a letter must have a seal to strengthen the same, even so, faith must have good works".

As a Catholic myself, even Luther (a Protestant) goes to show that we must do good with our works, and our lives to help others, so eventually, I will join a volunteer organization at my local Catholic church to help the food bank. So, let us live our lives out glorifying Christ by helping his people, whether that be helping out the poor, holding the door open for someone, helping an elderly neighbor bring in groceries, making art that glorifies God, or making music that has clean and wholesome lyrics. Without good works, our faith will die (James 2:26).

 

[Soyeong]

Luther said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith. The issue is someone or something can be alone from different things depending on the context, for example, a person can be alone apart from other humans while not being alone apart from their pets. We are declared righteous by faith alone apart from being required to have first done any righteous works in order to earn our righteousness as the result, but being declared righteous means to be declared someone who is a doer of righteous works, so we are not declared righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works does not abolish our need to be doers of the righteous works in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and that his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only doers of the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he will tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, in Romans 2:13, Paul said that only doers of the law will be justified, in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him, and in Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life, and so forth, so the Bible is abundantly clear that our salvation requires us to be doers of the law. However, the Bible also strongly speaks against earning our salvation as the result of our works and if I take the position that our salvation requires us to be doers of God's law, then the problem is that it is almost an automatic for Protestants to respond with verses that speak against earning our salvation even though I didn't support the position that we are required to obey God's law in order to earn our salvation, so this is the position that many Protestants imagine that many Catholics hold.

Our salvation from sin would be Incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of our salvation from sin that we are experiencing in the present by be doers of God's law. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so what are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of those works is intrinsically the content of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present. In other words, being a doer of God's law has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation from God, but rather it is the way that God is giving us His gift of salvation.

 

[d taylor]

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Never heard of Jeff Durbin, but if he is talking about elect, more than likely he is a Calvinist and Calvinist are not faith alone.

He states people are to repent and believe. that is not a faith alone person.

 

[d taylor]

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If you want to see a real faith alone group, here is a link to Grace Evangelical Societies website. They also do videos along with tons of free reading material. Zane Hodges was an excellent free grace faith alone teacher.

Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Grip Docility]

So i was watching a random video on youtube featuring a guy named Jeff Durbin, who I eventually researched and found out he is a sidekick to James White's (i think he is at least). Anyway, i found him to be the typical arrogant protestant who just dictates, accuses, and insists what Catholics believe him no matter what is being told to him. I was listening closely as to what he thinks about the whole faith by works, and how he eventually tries to brag and praise himself about how he is the one truly saved because being a christian. So he speaks about the 7 sacraments, purgatory, and just how faith alone is just biblically true and tries to bully random catholics about it.

Here is the video for your reference:

So my question is this. If protestants believe that strongly about faith alone, then why do they care so much to the point that they feel the need to throw out condemnation, judgment, and demonizing at us for how we practice and worship God? Us doing the wrong thing like the sacraments, praying to saints, and whatever wouldn't mean much anyway since it's all about faith alone, right?

I'm speaking about doctrine, not people. Also, I no longer identify as "protestant", because I don't see the point in protesting against any brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ.

I will now be blunt. Lutherans are pretty much Catholics with a few doctrinal tweaks.

After that, most faith alone doctrines incorporate points of determinism. There's 5 point Calvinism. There's 4 point Calvinism. There's 3 point Calvinism. There's Hard Determinism and such forth. Not all protestants are "Reformed". But, there is a vast majority.

I've been around the block and heard discussions about how deep the Grace of Jesus Christ is and how OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) a saint is. OSAS depends on a minimum of 2 points of Calvinism. Here in lies the doctrinal issue. Determinism and being (CHOSEN / ELECTED) before the foundation of time comes into discussion and the concept that Jesus died for ALL of humanity goes out the door. The issue begins with the idea that some of humanity are just plain made to, by the doctrines of Determinism or Arminianism, burn eternally.

This seems like an innocent matter to many people. It becomes a very rapid path to interpreting Apostasy warnings within scripture in a carnal way. Visible sinners become HATED within the hearts of a portion of this Body and the Blood of Jesus is frequently declared impotent to save specific types of sinners. I wish I could say this is a small matter, but it's not! It's a massive issue that pops up EVERYWHERE! Sinners saved by Grace and Commanded to Love as they have been Loved by Jesus have what they believe to be a justified way to hate fellow humanity made in the Image of God.

Ask a "Faith Only" Protestant if they believe that God willingly created some Beings for the purpose of Eternal Conscious Torment. If they answer yes, ask them their take on Romans 1. After that, ask them their take on Romans 9. If the answer doesn't interpret scripture in the flesh, they are probably okay. If the answer is void of spiritual discernment, you will find that there is a rock solid recreation of the parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee.

Repentance required first, then Faith unto salvation that yields the Love of God unto all mankind is biblical. Faith alone due to being "Chosen" and afforded the ability to judge mankind made in the image of God and even light a fire of the tongue to condemn Sinners made in God's image... That's dangerous beyond words that I can write.

 

[HTacianas]

So i was watching a random video on youtube featuring a guy named Jeff Durbin, who I eventually researched and found out he is a sidekick to James White's (i think he is at least). Anyway, i found him to be the typical arrogant protestant who just dictates, accuses, and insists what Catholics believe him no matter what is being told to him. I was listening closely as to what he thinks about the whole faith by works, and how he eventually tries to brag and praise himself about how he is the one truly saved because being a christian. So he speaks about the 7 sacraments, purgatory, and just how faith alone is just biblically true and tries to bully random catholics about it.

Here is the video for your reference:

So my question is this. If protestants believe that strongly about faith alone, then why do they care so much to the point that they feel the need to throw out condemnation, judgment, and demonizing at us for how we practice and worship God? Us doing the wrong thing like the sacraments, praying to saints, and whatever wouldn't mean much anyway since it's all about faith alone, right?

I think I can help you with your question. That general attitude towards Catholics does not come so much from the notion of "faith alone" as it does from the anti-Catholic bias (sometimes so far as hatred) handed down from the Protestant Reformation. To some fifth and sixth or so generations of Protestantism anything that sounds "Catholic" is obviously wrong and some will even go as far as to say it comes from Satan himself. And it's easy for me to say that because I was once briefly one of those. But you hit the nail on the head when you said "he is the one truly saved". If you carry those ideas far enough you will reach that conclusion. The only one going to heaven is you because you are the only one who's right. I reached that point once and realized how ridiculous it was. When I finally realized that I decided to stop being my own Pope and learned better.

 

[Cis.jd]

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Never heard of Jeff Durbin, but if he is talking about elect, more than likely he is a Calvinist and Calvinist are not faith alone.

He states people are to repent and believe. that is not a faith alone person.

The video i linked has him arguing with random catholics about Faith alone though. This is why i'm confused on some protestants on their stance on this.

 

[d taylor]

The video i linked has him arguing with random catholics about Faith alone though. This is why i'm confused on some protestants on their stance on this.

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No he mentions repentance also, so his belief is not faith alone. He may say faith alone, but he actually when stating what to do to be saved, he adds repentance to faith.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

The only one going to heaven is you because you are the only one who's right

So, what's wrong with that logic? I'm serious. Of course I don't think I'm the only one to go to heaven, but hypothetically speaking, if you were the only one who's right, would you not then be the only one who's going to heaven?

 

[HTacianas]

So, what's wrong with that logic? I'm serious. Of course I don't think I'm the only one to go to heaven, but hypothetically speaking, if you were the only one who's right, would you not then be the only one who's going to heaven?

It contradicts the bible and the longstanding teachings of the Church.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

If I was the only one going to heaven there wouldn't be a great multitude there.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

It contradicts the bible and the longstanding teachings of the Church.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

If I was the only one going to heaven there wouldn't be a great multitude there.

Or maybe because you are bad at math, right? Do you realize that people who live in 2024 are not the only people who will be in heaven?

Does the Bible teach that few people are saved or many are saved? You should know that verse since you're much better than those horrible protestants right.

 

[HTacianas]

Or maybe because you are bad at math, right? Do you realize that people who live in 2024 are not the only people who will be in heaven?

Does the Bible teach that few people are saved or many are saved? You should know that verse since you're much better than those horrible protestants right.

The bible teaches that "a great multitude that no man can number" will be in heaven.

 

[St_Worm2]

i was watching a random video on youtube featuring a guy named Jeff Durbin ... i found him to be the typical arrogant protestant who just dictates, accuses, and insists what Catholics believe him no matter what is being told to him

Hello Cis.jd, I watched the portion of the video (the last 14-15 minutes) that you provided for us (and skimmed through some of the earlier exchanges too). I didn't hear Jeff Durbin raise his voice or respond in anger to anyone, and though he was trying to make the points that he felt he needed to make about what he believed, were not the Catholics who were talking to him doing the very same thing? The whole thing, from both sides actually, seemed pleasant enough to me, at least the parts of it that I heard anyway.

... he eventually tries to brag and praise himself about how he is the one truly saved because being a christian.

If it's not too much of a bother, could you tell me where he says that (because I couldn't find it). Thanks

So he speaks about the 7 sacraments, purgatory, and just how faith alone is just biblically true and tries to bully random catholics about it.

I was interested to see that all of the Catholics who stopped by stayed and talked with him for awhile. I didn't notice the "bullying" that you are referring to coming from either side, just people stating and/or defending what they believe (and trying to help the other side understand why they do). It didn't have the feel of an ecumenical conference or some sort of mutual admiration society, of course, but I thought that it seemed like a good, peaceful & even productive discussion, as well something that never reached the intensity of the debates that I've heard online on these same topics.

Also, unless I'm missing something, Pastor Durbin was the one who was sitting, and it was the "random" Catholics you were talking about who chose to come over and talk to him, yes (and, as I mentioned above, they stayed and continued to drive home their points, just like he was doing, when they could have just as easily walked away, yes)?

Perhaps I'll feel differently if you point out some of the exact places on the video where you believe that Pastor Durbin was behaving poorly towards the Catholics who were there (again, if you have the time to do so), as I could have certainly missed something.

Thanks again

God bless you!!

--David

 

[RandyPNW]

So i was watching a random video on youtube featuring a guy named Jeff Durbin, who I eventually researched and found out he is a sidekick to James White's (i think he is at least). Anyway, i found him to be the typical arrogant protestant who just dictates, accuses, and insists what Catholics believe him no matter what is being told to him. I was listening closely as to what he thinks about the whole faith by works, and how he eventually tries to brag and praise himself about how he is the one truly saved because being a christian. So he speaks about the 7 sacraments, purgatory, and just how faith alone is just biblically true and tries to bully random catholics about it.

Here is the video for your reference:

So my question is this. If protestants believe that strongly about faith alone, then why do they care so much to the point that they feel the need to throw out condemnation, judgment, and demonizing at us for how we practice and worship God? Us doing the wrong thing like the sacraments, praying to saints, and whatever wouldn't mean much anyway since it's all about faith alone, right?

I'll have to listen/watch the video, but off the top of my head, it sounds like you're missing the point about Faith Alone vs. Sacramental Legalism. Jesus made a big deal out of the Pharisees creating false laws, which distract from a simple faith in him. That is the problem with Sacramental Legalism--it puts people under unnecessary bondage when faith in Christ is simple and free.

Of course, even though Salvation is free there is a price to following Christ. It costs us our independence from God, ie freedom for our carnal nature, and it costs us in terms of popularity in this world, which doesn't like the Christian spirit.

The question then is: Is the requirement to observe the Sacraments a form of Legalism or not? I would say yes, if they are being put out as a requirement from God for Salvation.

But if they are only being put out as forms of Christian confession to forward the cause of Christian growth and expansion, then I would think it is not Legalism. You tell me?

When I speak of Salvation being free, however, I'm not saying that a person gets Salvation without doing anything. And I'm not saying that there is no exercise of the human will in Salvation. Clearly, people must choose to repent of their own ways and accept Christianity as their new life in order to be saved. The atonement for sin, however, belonged to the work of Christ alone.

Once saved, people must continue to exercise their will and even do good works to prove their Salvation. If they are truly saved, they will do this.

There are those, on the other hand, who adopt the Christian faith without fully internalizing it. That is, they retain their independence from God while using Christianity to do a limited amount of good works for their own use. They must prove their faith by consummating it in a full commitment to Christ, or be cut off from Christ.

 

[zippy2006]

So my question is this. If protestants believe that strongly about faith alone, then why do they care so much to the point that they feel the need to throw out condemnation, judgment, and demonizing at us for how we practice and worship God? Us doing the wrong thing like the sacraments, praying to saints, and whatever wouldn't mean much anyway since it's all about faith alone, right?

They are trying to change the Catholic's mind so that she will believe the "true gospel" and be saved. It makes sense to me.

 

[Cis.jd]

Hello Cis.jd, I watched the portion of the video (the last 14-15 minutes) that you provided for us (and skimmed through some of the earlier exchanges too). I didn't hear Jeff Durbin raise his voice or respond in anger to anyone, and though he was trying to make the points that he felt he needed to make about what he believed, were not the Catholics who were talking to him doing the very same thing? The whole thing, from both sides actually, seemed pleasant enough to me, at least the parts of it that I heard anyway.


If it's not too much of a bother, could you tell me where he says that (because I couldn't find it). Thanks


I was interested to see that all of the Catholics who stopped by stayed and talked with him for awhile. I didn't notice the "bullying" that you are referring to coming from either side, just people stating and/or defending what they believe (and trying to help the other side understand why they do). It didn't have the feel of an ecumenical conference or some sort of mutual admiration society, of course, but I thought that it seemed like a good, peaceful & even productive discussion, as well something that never reached the intensity of the debates that I've heard online on these same topics.

Also, unless I'm missing something, Pastor Durbin was the one who was sitting, and it was the "random" Catholics you were talking about who chose to come over and talk to him, yes (and, as I mentioned above, they stayed and continued to drive home their points, just like he was doing, when they could have just as easily walked away, yes)?

Perhaps I'll feel differently if you point out some of the exact places on the video where you believe that Pastor Durbin was behaving poorly towards the Catholics who were there (again, if you have the time to do so), as I could have certainly missed something.

Thanks again

God bless you!!

--David

I'm not going to rewatch the video to hunt for time stamps, but there are parts in the video where you can hear the other people saying "that isn't true" when he is talking about the Catholic faith and he is insisting on it being true. Especially the parts where he is insisting they have no peace with "God today", but he does, despite their answers saying they do. I think that is around the 29:30 mark. He also cuts them off a lot when they are in the middle of making points, which is a common tactic street preachers do to dominate the people they are trying to speak about. He then makes statements to condemn, as the part where he takes about Isaiah in where "God mocks the people worshiping statues", which is obviously the typical protestant shot when they want to insist we are worshiping saints. Then there is part where he makes a difference between Roman Catholics and Christians. This is another jab, in where the protestant disassociates christianity from Catholics, the protestant is the christian, the catholic is not. You don't need to yell in order to be arrogant.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'll have to listen/watch the video, but off the top of my head, it sounds like you're missing the point about Faith Alone vs. Sacramental Legalism. Jesus made a big deal out of the Pharisees creating false laws, which distract from a simple faith in him. That is the problem with Sacramental Legalism--it puts people under unnecessary bondage when faith in Christ is simple and free.

Sacramental Legalism.

That's the first time I've heard of that term, but it makes perfect sense in relation to what Jesus was dealing with with the Pharisee and Sadducee type Jews.

A lot of the same wrongful practices that those Jewish people did back then can be found in the more traditionalist types of today. The Jews back then created their own laws from the words of their elders, and used that to supersede GOD's law and words somehow whenever possible. A lot of that happens also today with the idea that certain denominations think they are the only true body of Christ, and that they have some sort of authority to rewrite sections of scripture and make GOD say something different.

There is nothing new under the sun.