Do believers have goodness apart from God?

[Hammster]

Nah, my “tradition”, i.e. Christianity, has just always known what it means. You’re operating from a disadvantaged position of trying to pick up a Book centuries after it was written, removed from the historical context within which it was written and removed from the historical tradition that received and understood it from the beginning and then saying, Oh, we, exclusively, know what the authors intended.”

Meanwhile the verse supports what I wrote in my last post perfectly.

It only does so when you continue to change the definition of the words. I just can’t do that.

 

[fhansen]

And you keep adding an invisible “try”.

Why is that?

You keep subtracting the visible “all”. And “draw” means the same in English here as in the Greek anyway. The draw is present, all men should come. Some won’t.

 

[CoreyD]

Wow. That’s universalism.

It appears that it will be if that's what you want it to be, but if what I said from the start was given any consideration at all, you would not consider it universalism, but the truth from God's word.

 

[fhansen]

And you keep adding an invisible “try”.

Why is that?

The reason has already been explained. The actions that you maintain He did would be irrational because in that scenario God demands willful obedience from man for centuries, from the beginning, and then suddenly says, "I know what I'll do; I'll just change them, or some of them anyway, so that they'll obey!! What I great idea! Too bad about all the needless suffering humans had to experience all that time since I could've just played puppet master to begin with but at least I'm consistent-I'm sending many to eternal suffering anyway! And I can do this...because...I'm God!"

And if man is simply going to be changed first such that his salvation is totally secured, then there's no reason for him to be given knowledge, information, revelation-because the choice is made for him.

 

[Hammster]

You keep subtracting the visible “all”.

No. In the context, it doesn’t mean what you think it means.

And “draw” means the same in English here as in the Greek anyway. The draw is present, all men should come. Some won’t.

Where are you getting “men” from? What’s the Greek word? We should be on the same page.

 

[Hammster]

It appears that it will be if that's what you want it to be, but if what I said from the start was given any consideration at all, you would not consider it universalism, but the truth from God's word.

I’m going by what you posted. But I’ll grant that maybe you were too ambiguous for me.

 

[Hammster]

The reason has already been explained. The actions that you maintain He did would be irrational because in that scenario God demands willful obedience from man for centuries, from the beginning, and then suddenly says, "I know what I'll do; I'll just change them, or some of them anyway, so that they'll obey!! What I great idea! Too bad about all the needless suffering humans had to experience all that time since I could've just played puppet master to begin with but at least I'm consistent-I'm sending many to eternal suffering anyway! And I can do this...because...I'm God!"

And if man is simply going to be changed first such that his salvation is totally secured, then there's no reason for him to be given knowledge, information, revelation-because the choice is made for him.

God ordained the means as well as the end. And whatever He does brings Him the most glory.

 

[fhansen]

God ordained the means as well as the end. And whatever He does brings Him the most glory.

Irrationality brings Him no glory. And people would be foolish for following Him anyway in that case.

 

[CoreyD]

It only does so when you continue to change the definition of the words. I just can’t do that.

May you have peace.

 

[fhansen]

Where are you getting “men” from? What’s the Greek word? We should be on the same page.

"Men" means people-and its translated both ways-and other ways- depending on which translation the page is in.

 

[Hammster]

Irrationality brings Him no glory. And people would be foolish for following Him anyway in that case.

You must really have a problem with the cross, then. The Father bringing glory by crushing His Son was really irrational.

 

[Hammster]

"Men" means people-and its translated both ways-and other ways- depending on which translation the page is in.

What’s the Greek word? It’s a simple question.

 

[fhansen]

You must really have a problem with the cross, then. The Father bringing glory by crushing His Son was really irrational.

Well, if you think so then I guess you've haven't worked out the meaning of the cross yet. The glory of God is primarily His love. And the glory of the cross is to demonstrate that love, a love which would go to any extent, the nth degree, to prove itself to us- so that we might be moved by it, drawn to it, and love in return. Quite logical even if foolishness to the world. That was God on the cross suffering an excruciatingly painful passion and death in human flesh, willfully, for us, for all of us.

And as we look upon He who we've pierced we can and should know that we've extinguished the Ultimate Light, killed the most perfect and pure thing the world can know, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Fortunately, to put it mildly, we also have the resurrection, the final triumph of life over death, good over evil. We just need to jump on board, to choose that life and goodness, to choose Him when he knocks on our door and asks to enter, or to take His yoke upon us as we've grown weary of this world and its empty ways, of its sin, of its failure to love. It's that annoying appeal thing again, and whether or not we'll respond to it.

 

[fhansen]

What’s the Greek word? It’s a simple question.

The Greek says "all", and so what of it?

 

[Hammster]

Well, if you think so then I guess you've haven't worked out the meaning of the cross yet. The glory of God is primarily His love. And the glory of the cross is to demonstrate that love, a love which would go to any extent, the nth degree, to prove itself to us- so that we might be moved by it, drawn to it, and love in return. Quite logical even if foolishness to the world. That was God on the cross suffering an excruciatingly painful passion and death in human flesh, willfully, for us, for all of us.

And as we look upon He who we've pierced we can and should know that we've extinguished the Ultimate Light, killed the most perfect and pure thing the world can know, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Fortunately, to put it mildly, we also have the resurrection, the final triumph of life over death, good over evil. We just need to jump on board, to choose that life and goodness, to choose Him when he knocks on our door and asks to enter, or to take His yoke upon us as we've grown weary of this world and its empty ways, of its sin, of its failure to love. It's that annoying appeal thing again, and whether or not we'll respond to it.

Your complaint was that my view was irrational, so it couldn’t be from God. The cross is irrational.

 

[Hammster]

The Greek says "all", and so what of it?

Does that mean everything material and immaterial?

 

[fhansen]

Does that mean everything material and immaterial?

Of course not, in context it means as it often does in other places of the Bible, all men

 

[Hammster]

Of course not, in context it means as it often does in other places of the Bible, all men

For the sake of argument, let’s say you are correct. Does this include Jezebel?

 

[fhansen]

For the sake of argument, let’s say you are correct. Does this include Jezebel?

Yes, Christ's grace extends to all. To the Jezebel of the OT and the NT (if that one is a real person), to Hitler, to heretics, apostates, et al.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, Christ's grace extends to all. To the Jezebel of the OT and the NT (if that one is a real person), to Hitler, to heretics, apostates, et al.

She was well dead by the time Christ was crucified. And it was a death of judgement because of her wickedness.