Separation of Church and State – Answering Critics

[Dale]

The biggest issue with "separation of church and state" is that it's impossible to not enshrine a religious perspective into the governing philosophy, since the philosophy that the government is the authority over the church and sets its dominion is just as much based on religious views as the philosophy that God is the ultimate authority even over political matters. The atheistic secularist philosophy that demands that public spaces be stripped of any and all religious demonstration is just as much of a violation of the separation of church and state as a religious organization demanding that it be given exclusive privilege in public spaces.

Fervent: “… it's impossible to not enshrine a religious perspective into the governing philosophy, since the philosophy that the government is the authority over the church and sets its dominion is just as much based on religious views as the philosophy that God is the ultimate authority even over political matters.”

It is possible to draw a line and makes sense and one that we can live with. Zoning laws regulate where churches can be built but local governments don’t tell churches what they can teach. It is ironic that throughout the US, churches generally have tax exemption but many Christians seem obsessed with the idea that they are being persecuted.


Fervent: “The atheistic secularist philosophy that demands that public spaces be stripped of any and all religious demonstration is just as much of a violation of the separation of church and state as a religious organization demanding that it be given exclusive privilege in public spaces.”

I am not an extremist in this matter. Where I live, the city puts up an extensive display of Christmas lights in a park at the historic center of town during the Christmas season. Someone wrote a letter to the editor criticizing the display for being entirely secular and not having religious images. Apparently this person had driven around but not walked through the park and the Christmas lights. I do walk around when they have the Christmas lights up. One section does have wise men, shepherds, the star and a manger scene. I could have sent in a letter pointing this out but I decided not to. If anti-religious groups don’t know that there is imagery from the Gospel story among the Christmas lights, I decided not to let them know about it.

 

[Fervent]

Fervent: “… it's impossible to not enshrine a religious perspective into the governing philosophy, since the philosophy that the government is the authority over the church and sets its dominion is just as much based on religious views as the philosophy that God is the ultimate authority even over political matters.”

It is possible to draw a line and makes sense and one that we can live with. Zoning laws regulate where churches can be built but local governments don’t tell churches what they can teach. It is ironic that throughout the US, churches generally have tax exemption but many Christians seem obsessed with the idea that they are being persecuted.

To an extent, but the notion that the state is the ultimate authority in the land is itself embued with theosophic considerations. When we're dealing with issues of power, there's no way to neatly separate out the belief or disbelief in an ultimate authority over and above the state.

There certainly is a fair amount of paranoia, but it's because there is no way to actually demarcate what is the states authority and where religious authority comes into play. Ultimately one has to trump the other, and even in setting zoning restrictions the state is establishing an authority to dictate when and which religious beliefs are acceptable in the community.

Fervent: “The atheistic secularist philosophy that demands that public spaces be stripped of any and all religious demonstration is just as much of a violation of the separation of church and state as a religious organization demanding that it be given exclusive privilege in public spaces.”

I am not an extremist in this matter. Where I live, the city puts up an extensive display of Christmas lights in a park at the historic center of town during the Christmas season. Someone wrote a letter to the editor criticizing the display for being entirely secular and not having religious images. Apparently this person had driven around but not walked through the park and the Christmas lights. I do walk around when they have the Christmas lights up. One section does have wise men, shepherds, the star and a manger scene. I could have sent in a letter pointing this out but I decided not to. If anti-religious groups don’t know that there is imagery from the Gospel story among the Christmas lights, I decided not to let them know about it.

Then perhaps that particular criticism does not apply to you, but a more general one in which the notion of religious pluralism is somehow an intrinsic good is aimed at rather than intentional antireligious antagonism the basic principle is still in effect. Our religious beliefs shape our ethics, and our theories of governance. And when I say religious beliefs, I'm including the absence of such beliefs not simply the positive expression of them as both basic positions influence what we would consider reasonable.

 

[Merrill]

In regards to the powers of government, and the reach of the state, one can observe that, as time passes, we do not have less laws, we have more.

Likewise, the power and reach of the state tend to grow over time. Not simply out of an authoritarian impulse, but because the public demands politicians "do something" about a certain problem. This also means that the rights enshrined in the Constitution are whittled away, challenged, etc.

A good example is in the news right now. A group of teenagers riding scooters are being charged with Class C felonies in the State of Washington for damaging a LGBT rainbow painted on the street. The governor of that state recently signed a law that designates damage to property (public or private) to a felony if there was "hateful intent" or messaging, against protected groups.

this is wildly unconstitutional, as it punishes speech and is against the R.A.V. vs. City of St. Paul decision. But the governor doesn't care, because the public wants him to "do something".

Likewise, the church closures during the pandemic were a violation of the Free Exercise clause, but that didn't stop governors.

When rights are whittled away, weakened, etc. --they are ultimately dispensed with altogether. The political left in this country hates the First Amendment and wants it abolished. They view speech as violence, protecting speech as protecting Fascists and White Supremacists, the Free Exercise clause as a special privilege handed out to Christians, whom they view as vicious, ignorant, criminals.

We can see this here as well, with Dale remarking that Christians were out to "kill people" by not getting vaccinated

The First Amendment, and Bill of Rights in general, keeps 30% of the population from shuttering churches and arresting the congregants. It keeps the same people from passing censorship laws, arresting authors, confiscating property, etc.

 

[lifepsyop]

Tens of thousands killed? No? Thousands? No? Hundreds?

In reality, over a hundred protestors and over a dozen police.

That's like a Hiroshima bomb compared to Jan.6th in DC. (where there was so little violence that the media had to literally fabricate stories of police being killed by protestors) I continue to point out how you have no problem with an actual insurrection against the established government. Though I'm probably wasting my time.

A lack of liberal democracy is why nations like North Korea and Venezuela can't even feed their own people, and are cesspools of oppression and corruption. It's why life expectancy and standard of living in Russia has declined precipitously since democracy ended there.

I have a feeling "democracy ended" in Russia when the majority began voting in a way you disagree with.

You think Ukraine has a liberal democracy?

Not at all. Western supported/managed Ukrainian government is kidnapping their young men en masse to die in a war that is entirely bankrolled by foreign powers. Zelensky has banned political opposition and opposition media.

Nevertheless, Zelensky's Ukraine remains the hero of American liberals and neocons.

Though I guess this is in keeping with the liberal tradition of eradicating people that reject their worldview. The Sacred Tree of Liberty is always in need of more sacrificial bloodshed.

Better than Russia, but hardly an epitome of democracy.

God help whoever has to experience your version of an epitome of democracy.

Notice you're outraged at Zelensky for some of the milder authoritarian things Putin has done. Clean your house before peeking in the neighbor's windows.

This is one of the central Liberal myths.. that anything "authoritarian" is evil in principle. The Bible teaches us that the king or emperor is to be honored. (American Christians are not big fans of those passages.)

 

[The Barbarian]

That's like a Hiroshima bomb compared to Jan.6th in DC. (where there was so little violence that the media had to literally fabricate stories of police being killed by protestors) I continue to point out how you have no problem with an actual insurrection against the established government.

I've repeatedly condemned the people who tried to disrupt BLM marches with violence. Thing is, the guys killing police attacking marcher,and firing weapons into police stations were all right wing white nationalists. Can you show us even one case of a BLM member doing any of that?

• Ivan Hunter posed as a BLM protester during the height of George Floyd protests in 2020, according to The Daily Beast.
• He fired 13 rounds into a Minneapolis police station and was a part of a far-right extremist group, according to The Associated Press.
• He pleaded guilty on Thursday,

A far-right extremist who pretended to be a BLM supporter pleaded guilty to rioting

He fired 13 shots into a Minneapolis police station while shouting "Justice for Floyd!" at the height of 2020 George Floyd protests.

www.businessinsider.com

Far-right ‘boogaloo boys’ linked to killing of California law officers and other violence ​

Far-right 'boogaloo boys' linked to killing of California law officers and other violence

Boogaloo members, who include ultra-libertarians and white supremacists, believe in armed insurrection and attacks on the police, experts say.

www.latimes.com

Show us what you have. These are the same guys as the insurrctionists who tried to overturn the election results when they attacked the Capitol.

Footage from a Washington, D.C., police officer's body camera captured how he was savagely beaten as he pleaded for mercy and Capitol rioters rejoiced in the assault.

The video, which CNN obtained exclusively and aired Wednesday night, shows Metropolitan Police Officer Michael Fanone being dragged down steps of the Capitol's Lower West Terrace during the Jan. 6 riot.


As Fanone screams in agony, one rioter's voice can be heard over the noise: "I got one!"

Fanone appears to be on his back as he desperately tries to fend off crowds of rioters, one in a red "Keep America Great" baseball cap, another in a Gadsden flag T-shirt and another carrying a pro-Trump flag.

New video shows brutal beating of D.C. Metropolitan Police officer during Jan. 6 riot

As Officer Michael Fanone screamed in agony, one rioter's voice could be heard over the noise: "I got one!"

www.nbcnews.com

There's lots more. Want to see more? Meantime, get your evidence that BLM members were doing this kind of thing. I'll ask again if you forget.

I have a feeling "democracy ended" in Russia when the majority began voting in a way you disagree with.

It ended about the time Putin started throwing his political opponents in prison. Which might not seem like a bad thing to Trump supporters, but still...

Nevertheless, Zelensky's Ukraine remains the hero of American liberals and neocons.

A small nation, fighting off a larger aggressor does tend to put Americans on its side, yes. Ukraine is better than Russia, but hardly an epitome of democracy.

God help whoever has to experience your version of an epitome of democracy.

Perhaps if you lived in America, you'd see that it's a lot better than Russia. Notice you're outraged at Zelensky for some of the milder authoritarian things Putin has done. Clean your house before peeking in the neighbor's windows.

This is one of the central Liberal myths.. that anything "authoritarian" is evil in principle.

That was what the Founders of America said. They were right. It's an intrinsic evil.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

This is what all authoritarians fear.

The Bible teaches us that the king or emperor is to be honored.

It's says to obey those set above you. In America, that's the Constitution. We are a nation of laws,not men. Consider how your nation has provided for its people. compared to America.

Right. Because liberty works. Sorry about your system.

 

[Merrill]

I've repeatedly condemned the people who tried to disrupt BLM marches with violence. Thing is, the guys killing police attacking marcher,and firing weapons into police stations were all right wing white nationalists. Can you show us even one case of a BLM member doing any of that?

• Ivan Hunter posed as a BLM protester during the height of George Floyd protests in 2020, according to The Daily Beast.
• He fired 13 rounds into a Minneapolis police station and was a part of a far-right extremist group, according to The Associated Press.
• He pleaded guilty on Thursday,

A far-right extremist who pretended to be a BLM supporter pleaded guilty to rioting

He fired 13 shots into a Minneapolis police station while shouting "Justice for Floyd!" at the height of 2020 George Floyd protests.

www.businessinsider.com

Far-right ‘boogaloo boys’ linked to killing of California law officers and other violence ​

Far-right 'boogaloo boys' linked to killing of California law officers and other violence

Boogaloo members, who include ultra-libertarians and white supremacists, believe in armed insurrection and attacks on the police, experts say.

www.latimes.com

Show us what you have. These are the same guys as the insurrctionists who tried to overturn the election results when they attacked the Capitol.

Footage from a Washington, D.C., police officer's body camera captured how he was savagely beaten as he pleaded for mercy and Capitol rioters rejoiced in the assault.

The video, which CNN obtained exclusively and aired Wednesday night, shows Metropolitan Police Officer Michael Fanone being dragged down steps of the Capitol's Lower West Terrace during the Jan. 6 riot.


As Fanone screams in agony, one rioter's voice can be heard over the noise: "I got one!"

Fanone appears to be on his back as he desperately tries to fend off crowds of rioters, one in a red "Keep America Great" baseball cap, another in a Gadsden flag T-shirt and another carrying a pro-Trump flag.

New video shows brutal beating of D.C. Metropolitan Police officer during Jan. 6 riot

As Officer Michael Fanone screamed in agony, one rioter's voice could be heard over the noise: "I got one!"

www.nbcnews.com

There's lots more. Want to see more? Meantime, get your evidence that BLM members were doing this kind of thing. I'll ask again if you forget.


It ended about the time Putin started throwing his political opponents in prison. Which might not seem like a bad thing to Trump supporters, but still...


A small nation, fighting off a larger aggressor does tend to put Americans on its side, yes. Ukraine is better than Russia, but hardly an epitome of democracy.


Perhaps if you lived in America, you'd see that it's a lot better than Russia. Notice you're outraged at Zelensky for some of the milder authoritarian things Putin has done. Clean your house before peeking in the neighbor's windows.


That was what the Founders of America said. They were right. It's an intrinsic evil.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

This is what all authoritarians fear.


It's says to obey those set above you. In America, that's the Constitution. We are a nation of laws,not men. Consider how your nation has provided for its people. compared to America.

Right. Because liberty works. Sorry about your system.

"Thing is, the guys killing police attacking marcher,and firing weapons into police stations were all right wing white nationalists"

complete an utter nonsense. Total lie

One guy from Texas who was involved in an anti-government right-wing group was charged with firing a gun at a police station

DOZENS of far-left, Antifa, and BLM protestors were arrested for arson (including of the police station), vandalism, assault, etc., in Minneapolis, including these four

Four Indicted In Minneapolis Police Third Precinct Arson

www.justice.gov

likewise, the city blocks that were taken over in Portland, Seattle and elsewhere, featured black-clad leftists with guns, and in some cases wearing baclaclavas

Armed Activists Seized Three Blocks of a North Portland Residential Neighborhood. Here’s What It Was Like Inside the Encampment.

For five nights, Portland’s attention was fixed on this intersection.

www.wweek.com

This fake, left-wing narrative about far-right extremists leading the riots was just that. Incredible that people are stupid enough to believe that

 

[Dale]

To an extent, but the notion that the state is the ultimate authority in the land is itself embued with theosophic considerations. When we're dealing with issues of power, there's no way to neatly separate out the belief or disbelief in an ultimate authority over and above the state.

There certainly is a fair amount of paranoia, but it's because there is no way to actually demarcate what is the states authority and where religious authority comes into play. Ultimately one has to trump the other, and even in setting zoning restrictions the state is establishing an authority to dictate when and which religious beliefs are acceptable in the community.

Then perhaps that particular criticism does not apply to you, but a more general one in which the notion of religious pluralism is somehow an intrinsic good is aimed at rather than intentional antireligious antagonism the basic principle is still in effect. Our religious beliefs shape our ethics, and our theories of governance. And when I say religious beliefs, I'm including the absence of such beliefs not simply the positive expression of them as both basic positions influence what we would consider reasonable.

Fervent: “When we're dealing with issues of power, there's no way to neatly separate out the belief or disbelief in an ultimate authority over and above the state.”

They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose portrait is
this? And whose inscription?” “Caesar’s,” they replied.
Then Jesus said to them, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s
and to God what is God’s.” And they were amazed at him.
Matthew 12:16-17 NIV​

Fervent, you seem to be saying that there is no way to draw a line between the state and religion. You are saying that one must dominate. Jesus says that there is a way: “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

You are making things more complicated than they need to be.

 

[Fervent]

Fervent: “When we're dealing with issues of power, there's no way to neatly separate out the belief or disbelief in an ultimate authority over and above the state.”

They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose portrait is
this? And whose inscription?” “Caesar’s,” they replied.
Then Jesus said to them, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s
and to God what is God’s.” And they were amazed at him.
Matthew 12:16-17 NIV​

Fervent, you seem to be saying that there is no way to draw a line between the state and religion. You are saying that one must dominate. Jesus says that there is a way: “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

You are making things more complicated than they need to be.

That's not what Jesus is saying there, that statement basically allows both the herodians and the pharisees to interpret it how they want to. It was a crafty non-answer to evade a trap question. Authority ultimately has to have its source somewhere, either God gives the state it's authority or the state determines how far God's authority reaches. There's room for some co-existence, but there's bound to be points of friction(such as in the example you mention, where the pharisees saw paying taxes as infidelity to God and the herodians saw a failure to pay taxes as sedition) eventually a person has to decide where their true loyalty lies.

 

[The Barbarian]

Thing is, the guys killing police attacking marcher,and firing weapons into police stations were all right wing white nationalists

complete an utter nonsense. Total lie

Show me a BLM member who did those things. Show me anyone else who did those things. What do you have?

One guy from Texas who was involved in an anti-government right-wing group was charged with firing a gun at a police station

And so far, Killing police...

https://www.salon.com/2020/06/17/far-right-boogaloo-boy-killed-officer-after-using-black-lives-matter-protest-as-cover-prosecutors/

DOZENS of far-left, Antifa, and BLM protestors were arrested for arson (including of the police station), vandalism, assault, etc., in Minneapolis, including these four

likewise, the city blocks that were taken over in Portland, Seattle and elsewhere, featured black-clad leftists with guns, and in some cases wearing baclaclavas

None identified as BLM members? None killing police or firing weapons into police stations? What a surprise. Thing is, the guys killing police attacking marcher,and firing weapons into police stations were all right wing white nationalists. There's a good reason you couldn't find exceptions.

Antifa seems to be the far-left equivalent of the MAGA insurrectionists who attacked the capitol. They just weren't killing police or firing weapons into police stations as white nationalists were.

Even if reality offends you, it's still reality. Learn to live with it. This fake, white nationalist narrative about BLM marchers leading the riots and killing police was just that. Incredible that people are stupid enough to believe that.

 

[The Barbarian]

There's room for some co-existence, but there's bound to be points of friction(such as in the example you mention, where the pharisees saw paying taxes as infidelity to God and the herodians saw a failure to pay taxes as sedition) eventually a person has to decide where their true loyalty lies.

Jesus neatly exposed the error in both views:

Mark 12:13 And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and of the Herodians; that they should catch him in his words. 14 Who coming, say to him: Master, we know that thou art a true speaker, and carest not for any man; for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar; or shall we not give it? 15 Who knowing their wiliness, saith to them: Why tempt you me? bring me a penny that I may see it.

16 And they brought it him. And he saith to them: Whose is this image and inscription? They say to him, Caesar's. 17 And Jesus answering, said to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

 

[Merrill]

Thing is, the guys killing police attacking marcher,and firing weapons into police stations were all right wing white nationalists


Show me a BLM member who did those things. Show me anyone else who did those things. What do you have?


And so far, Killing police...

https://www.salon.com/2020/06/17/far-right-boogaloo-boy-killed-officer-after-using-black-lives-matter-protest-as-cover-prosecutors/

None identified as BLM members? None killing police or firing weapons into police stations? What a surprise. Thing is, the guys killing police attacking marcher,and firing weapons into police stations were all right wing white nationalists. There's a good reason you couldn't find exceptions.

Antifa seems to be the far-left equivalent of the MAGA insurrectionists who attacked the capitol. They just weren't killing police or firing weapons into police stations as white nationalists were.

Even if reality offends you, it's still reality. Learn to live with it. This fake, white nationalist narrative about BLM marchers leading the riots and killing police was just that. Incredible that people are stupid enough to believe that.

I already posted police reports listing those who got arrested, and they weren't right-wing activists. You can do a few google searches and see the other arrest made in many other states which will confirm that the rioters were often black, and in some cases, white Antifa members

Who identifies as "BLM members"? LOL --let's use BLM sympathizes, rioters, and activists. Your attempts at exonerating the rioters by making up some nonsense about "official BLM membership" is laughable

I guess we all must have imagined the countless videos of black mobs rioting in the streets

 

[The Barbarian]

I already posted police reports listing those who got arrested,

But as you now see, only white supremacists were found to have killed police (trying to put the blame on BLM) or fired weapons into police stations during these marches. No BLM members or anyone else for that matter.

There's a lot more. Want to see more?

Who identifies as "BLM members"?

it's an official organization, with official members. Unlike Antifa or many (but not all) white supremacists. So it's easy to debunk your claims.

LOL --let's use BLM sympathizes, rioters, and activists.

Like the white supremacist who screamed "justice for Floyd" while firing into a police station? Nice try, but no. Your attempts at blaming BLM by pretending white supremacists were BLM, is laughable. Since you mention rioting...

Police in Minneapolis say a man known as "Umbrella Man", seen damaging property in the city during the Black Lives Matter protests, has links to white supremacy groups.

People took to the city's streets following the death there in May of George Floyd, an unarmed black man. Police say Umbrella Man helped turn the largely peaceful protests violent.

Footage of the man wearing a mask and carrying an umbrella while smashing shop windows went viral online. In the video, taken on 27 May, Umbrella Man can be seen breaking the windows with a hammer as people approach him trying to get him to stop. He then walks away from the scene.

Police said he also sprayed a message on the doors of the store.

Umbrella Man: Minneapolis police link suspect to white supremacists

The man was pictured smashing the windows of an AutoZone store in the city during protests.

www.bbc.com

There's lots more. Want to see more?

 

[Fervent]

Jesus neatly exposed the error in both views:

Mark 12:13 And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and of the Herodians; that they should catch him in his words. 14 Who coming, say to him: Master, we know that thou art a true speaker, and carest not for any man; for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar; or shall we not give it? 15 Who knowing their wiliness, saith to them: Why tempt you me? bring me a penny that I may see it.

16 And they brought it him. And he saith to them: Whose is this image and inscription? They say to him, Caesar's. 17 And Jesus answering, said to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

I see that quoted often, and it seems to do the same today as it did then in that people read what they want to read into it. So what do you understand as the meaning behind that statement?

 

[The Barbarian]

I see that quoted often, and it seems to do the same today as it did then in that people read what they want to read into it. So what do you understand as the meaning behind that statement?

1. Matthew 4.7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
2. John 18: 36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

 

[Fervent]

1. Matthew 4.7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
2. John 18: 36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Reinforced by St. Paul:
Romans 13:1 All of you must obey those who rule over you. There are no authorities except the ones God has chosen. Those who now rule have been chosen by God.

neither of those verses answers my question. How do you understand Jesus' reply?

 

[The Barbarian]

neither of those verses answers my question. How do you understand Jesus' reply?

First, He was calling out those who sought to trap him into a dilemma by turning it around on them.
Second, He showed that He was not going to be the political/conquering Messiah the Pharisees and others were expecting. He wasn't going to lead a revolt against the Romans, because that was not the Kingdom He was establishing.

 

[The Barbarian]

There's lots more. Want to see more?

I would respond, but I am just done with this guy.

Next time, be careful about attacking from an exposed position. Bad strategy, that.

I feel like a sane person arguing with creepy old men in a NAMLBA meeting

Can't relate to your experience; never been there. Were you actually a member or just curious?

(Edit)
(Barbarian investigates NAMLBA)
Wait, you were writing about NAMBLA? That's really creepy.

 

[lifepsyop]

First, He was calling out those who sought to trap him into a dilemma by turning it around on them.
Second, He showed that He was not going to be the political/conquering Messiah the Pharisees and others were expecting. He wasn't going to lead a revolt against the Romans, because that was not the Kingdom He was establishing.

Yet American founding mythology follows that the Declaration of Independence was the furtherance of God's kingdom on earth through armed revolt and political conquest to usher in the age of Liberty.

The American Civil War is also claimed to be the further ushering in of God's Government (think of the Battle Hymn of the Republic)

Most of the professing Christians who complain about Christian nationalism or the mixing of religion and politics actually celebrate it throughout American history, just as long as such a syncretization is always leading towards a universal liberalism and away from the particularities of the Bible.

Out of one side of their mouths they tell other Christians to keep God out of government and be detached from the world of politics and simply spread the Gospel... meanwhile those same people are constantly politically active in defending tenets of liberalism and promoting "sacred democracy", promoting the sanctity of political documents like the Declaration of Independence or the U.S. Constitution, and essentially advocating for permanent revolution against monarchy or any non-liberal political structures. They are commonly seen developing a religious zeal to defend modern liberal democratic institutions against any potential intrusion.

 

[lifepsyop]

This is one of the central Liberal myths.. that anything "authoritarian" is evil in principle.

That was what the Founders of America said. They were right. It's an intrinsic evil.

Interesting. Jesus and the apostles never said anything about authoritarians being intrinsically evil. Actually the apostles talked a lot about their station being God-ordained and to honor them.

This is where the religion of Liberty formally breaks from the Word of the Lord.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

This is what all authoritarians fear.

Not Satan. He loves it. If people won't be ruled by virtue, they'll be enslaved by vices. Hmmm... what has America's trajectory been for the last couple centuries?

It's says to obey those set above you.

So you agree that the American revolution was also a revolution against God's commandments.

In America, that's the Constitution. We are a nation of laws,not men.

Which constitution does America follow these days? Are you still trying to figure out if people should have freedom of association or instead be subject to state-enforced mixing of all cultures and ethnicities? Liberalism gets awful confusing, doesn't it...

 

[Fervent]

First, He was calling out those who sought to trap him into a dilemma by turning it around on them.
Second, He showed that He was not going to be the political/conquering Messiah the Pharisees and others were expecting. He wasn't going to lead a revolt against the Romans, because that was not the Kingdom He was establishing.

Yes, it's certainly true that Jesus' mission wasn't to be the conquering messiah that the Pharisees were expecting. And it remains true today that the current program is not a matter of Earthly conquest, but Jesus also made it clear we can't have divided loyalties. We either belong to His kingdom, or the kingdom of the prince of the powers of the air. And every Earthly government in some way belongs to the kingdom of the prince of the powers of the air, so at some point state and church are going to come into conflict and we must decide for ourselves who the true authority is.

Which makes the problem of demarcating where religious authority lies, and where state authority lies, even more vexxing if we do not want to compromise one of them. And I don't mean institutional authority of church governance, as that is ultimately just another worldly delegated authority dressed up in religious clothing. I am instead talking about where the line lies between personal moral conscience, and state authority. Especially in a democracy, Christians can't simply leave their values at the door of the voting booth and pretend that participating in selecting governance isn't tied with moral conviction.