Systemic racism in the USA: Are whites "guiltier" if they had slavery in their past?

[rjs330]

You guys go on about this stuff as if you had discovered an obvious flaw that researchers in the field have somehow overlooked. Do you do that in order to impute wicked motives to them?

I don't think there are wicked motives to compiling statistics. What there is. Is a lack of details. The report only provides statistics. It doesn't provide details. I don't even think the report made any specific conclusions not did it interpret the data. It's because there are far too many immeasurables. And it acknowledged that. In fact it flatly states that you have to be careful when interpreting the information because of the immeasurables which are missing.

Something you guys definitely have done. Jumped to conclusions and interpreted things that you shouldn't be. Like "it's systemic racism". The report makes no such claim and makes no such interpretation. I even quoted it.

 

[RDKirk]

The world for more than a century has flocked to acquire the customs, culture and gadgetry of 'western' culture of European origins, with or without colonization. Why is it that others are drawn to Caucasian ways of life?

To be honest, Western culture is a doggoned successful culture. European culture has 99 problems, but failure to thrive is not one of them.

As I've said before, we American descendants of slavery were stripped of our various African cultures and were both taught and exposed to a broken form of Anglo-American culture. It's "broken" because we were exposed to a culture that we were not fully allowed to adopt. For instance, slaves could not practice Anglo marriage. An enslaved woman could not devote herself to being mother and nurturer of her own family; an enslaved man could not be the provider and protector of her family. Yet, in Anglo-American culture, those were the primary goals and indicators of fully attained masculinity and femininity. Marriage between slaves wasn't even legally recognized. Enslaved men and women were usually not allowed to select their mates, enslaved mothers were frequently not able to keep their own children. After three hundred years of that, of course African American practice of marriage would be weakened, and concepts of masculinity and femininity would be distorted.

The enslaved were usually not allowed to read and write, which was a primary method of the transfer of Anglo-American culture. The enslaved could not practice planning for the future, either their personal future or their future generations. They had day-to-day lives with no idea what would happen to them in the future. Any day, they could sold.

The lives of enslaved people were cheap. They could not value themselves or each other...they were only the value of property, and could be killed at will by their masters. By Supreme Court judgment, no black man had any rights that any white man was obligated to respect.

That is a broken culture, and the effects continue to he seen.

African-American culture has, however, never been monolithic, although it has tended to be aspirational to the Anglo-American culture that has been the only model we have had (and certainly the most successful model we could observe). It has varied in broad levels in how it has emulated Anglo-American culture to the extent allowed by the majority group, as well as which Anglo-American culture broad groups of black people were exposed to and thus emulated.

In the early centuries, there was a freedman culture of the northeast that was aspirational to northeast Anglo-American culture. Enslaved people in the southern Atlantic coast aspirationally emulated the England-based culture of their aristocratic white slaveowners in that area.

However, the enslaved of the Gulf Coast states had no choice but to emulate the decidedly more vulgar Scots-Irish slaveholder culture they were exposed to, and that turned out to be the greatest proportion of enslaved people.

During the Great Northern Migration during the early 20th century, the cultural difference between blacks who had emulated the Scots-Irish slaveholders of the Gulf States and those who had emulated Northerners or South Atlantic aristocrats was plain to see. It was visible into the 1980s, by which time the popular media had shifted from portraying blacks as the aspirational culture (as seen in the movie Hidden Figures and as represented in the Civil Rights Era) to portraying blacks as the urban ghetto...which actually represents the blacks of the Great Northern Migration of the Scots-Irish culture.

I had come to a conclusion decades ago (beginning in the early 60s, actually) that I've only recently learned is the opinion of Thomas Sowell: What we are shown as "black culture" (and both blacks and whites have bought into this) is really black "cracker" or "peckerwood" culture....and it was learned from white "crackers" and "peckerwoods" of the Gulf States. Up until the 70s into the 80s, other black people--those raised in the South or North Atlantic cultures, had abhorred that culture--just as their white counterparts did. But the reason you don't see those blacks represented in the media is because those blacks have assimilated. They don't stand out as a separate culture as they did prior to the Civil Rights Era, by which they were visible because they were segregated.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Having said that, have you given any proof that there is no disparity?

The problem is that you think the disparity proves something.

We can take any two groups....men 32 years old and men 33 years old....and we'd expect a disparity. Does the disparity mean that the men 32yo are being discriminated against? No. It's just a disparity.

 

[Ana the Ist]

To be honest, Western culture is a doggoned successful culture. European culture has 99 problems, but failure to thrive is not one of them.

As I've said before, we American descendants of slavery were stripped of our various African cultures and were both taught and exposed to a broken form of Anglo-American culture. It's "broken" because we were exposed to a culture that we were not fully allowed to adopt. For instance, slaves could not practice Anglo marriage. An enslaved woman could not devote herself to being mother and nurturer of her own family; an enslaved man could not be the provider and protector of her family. Yet, in Anglo-American culture, those were the primary goals and indicators of fully attained masculinity and femininity. Marriage between slaves wasn't even legally recognized. Enslaved men and women were usually not allowed to select their mates, enslaved mothers were frequently not able to keep their own children. After three hundred years of that, of course African American practice of marriage would be weakened, and concepts of masculinity and femininity would be distorted.

This is a weird theory. I wouldn't even use it to describe the wider nation social culture today....and I'm not Anglo-Saxon by heritage, lol.

The enslaved were usually not allowed to read and write, which was a primary method of the transfer of Anglo-American culture. The enslaved could not practice planning for the future, either their personal future or their future generations. They had day-to-day lives with no idea what would happen to them in the future. Any day, they could sold.

The lives of enslaved people were cheap. They could not value themselves or each other...they were only the value of property, and could be killed at will by their masters. By Supreme Court judgment, no black man had any rights that any white man was obligated to respect.

That is a broken culture, and the effects continue to he seen.

African-American culture has, however, never been monolithic, although it has tended to be aspirational to the Anglo-American culture that has been the only model we have had (and certainly the most successful model we could observe). It has varied in broad levels in how it has emulated Anglo-American culture to the extent allowed by the majority group, as well as which Anglo-American culture broad groups of black people were exposed to and thus emulated.

In the early centuries, there was a freedman culture of the northeast that was aspirational to northeast Anglo-American culture. Enslaved people in the southern Atlantic coast aspirationally emulated the England-based culture of their aristocratic white slaveowners in that area.

However, the enslaved of the Gulf Coast states had no choice but to emulate the decidedly more vulgar Scots-Irish slaveholder culture they were exposed to, and that turned out to be the greatest proportion of enslaved people.

I love this part...scotch-irish were "vulgar" and as someone part scotch-irish....that's hilarious.

Yeah sure....a group people that existed for thousands of years and never enslaved anyone moved to the Southern US (because it was French and there's few people the scotch-Irish loved more than the French) and they brought all their riches from selling potatoes and bought slaves. That's how it went lol.

During the Great Northern Migration during the early 20th century, the cultural difference between blacks who had emulated the Scots-Irish slaveholders of the Gulf States and those who had emulated Northerners or South Atlantic aristocrats was plain to see. It was visible into the 1980s, by which time the popular media had shifted from portraying blacks as the aspirational culture (as seen in the movie Hidden Figures and as represented in the Civil Rights Era) to portraying blacks as the urban ghetto...which actually represents the blacks of the Great Northern Migration of the Scots-Irish culture.

Media made that choice. Sure. NWA got big because of tons of media support. There wasn't a great deal of backlash at the glorification of gang culture, misogyny, and drugs. There wasn't a widespread cultural concern from well to do whites that this was the wrong message to spread to the youth. There wasn't a counterargument from black people that this was merely "art" reflecting the realities of inner city life and not glorification.

You're old enough to recall these thing @RDKirk. You're old enough to remember what it was before and after the 80s. The media simply sells what sells....and the kids weren't demanding De La Soul and the Fresh Prince or LL Cool J by the 90s. By the time Masta P was rapping about how to make crack and riding a golden tank, no one was even pretending that it wasn't about glorification.

I had come to a conclusion decades ago (beginning in the early 60s, actually) that I've only recently learned is the opinion of Thomas Sowell: What we are shown as "black culture" (and both blacks and whites have bought into this) is really black "cracker" or "peckerwood" culture....and it was learned from white "crackers" and "peckerwoods" of the Gulf States.

Ironically the scotch-irish settled primarily in the northeast. Obviously Boston, but throughout Pennsylvania and as far south as Charleston and Savannah.

Sowell's theory that the rural southern accent is primarily a lower class English accent is interesting but I think he misses a lot of the French influence on it. The southern accent is a bit more complex that Sowell gives it credit for.

Up until the 70s into the 80s, other black people--those raised in the South or North Atlantic cultures, had abhorred that culture--just as their white counterparts did. But the reason you don't see those blacks represented in the media is because those blacks have assimilated. They don't stand out as a separate culture as they did prior to the Civil Rights Era, by which they were visible because they were segregated.

I think the biggest damage done to black culture was accidentally done Malcolm X in his famous "field slave vs house slave" speech. While it may have served a purpose for its time....he created the idea that a black person who worked with or for white people was in some way in some capacity a betrayer to other black people. In doing so, he created the worst thing you can call a black person....a two word term that begins with "house" and ends with....well we all know how it ends.

In doing so, he erected a wall between black people and everyone else in this nation....not intentionally, but in the collective unconscious of black people everywhere. To adopt anything deemed a white way of acting, of speaking, or even a white way of succeeding is to risk a label of traitor to black people everywhere. This has narrowed, particularly in the young black male psyche, the number of paths forward in life to those few that he sees dominated by black people....or black men in particular.

 

[RDKirk]

This is a weird theory. I wouldn't even use it to describe the wider nation social culture today....and I'm not Anglo-Saxon by heritage, lol.

I love this part...scotch-irish were "vulgar" and as someone part scotch-irish....that's hilarious.

"Vulgar" in the sense of being non-aristocratic.

Yeah sure....a group people that existed for thousands of years and never enslaved anyone moved to the Southern US (because it was French and there's few people the scotch-Irish loved more than the French) and they brought all their riches from selling potatoes and bought slaves. That's how it went lol.

What I said is being proven genetically. As you probably know, most descendants of American slavery have about 10-20% Caucasian admixture. As more and more of us are being tested, it's turning out that Caucasian genetic heritage is mostly Scottish. Heck, I'm 20% Scottish myself, and through census records I know the name of the white man on my father's side...."Kirk." This is representative of the frequency of rape of our ancestral mothers in slavery that occurred in the Gulf States. Caucasian admixture is proving to be much less among the descendants of American slavery along the Atlantic coast where there was much more attention paid to maintaining slave pedigrees. There are many black people on the Atlantic coast who can trace their ancestors all the way back to the first point of purchase from the slave ships, because of the care taken to maintain slave pedigrees.

Media made that choice. Sure. NWA got big because of tons of media support. There wasn't a great deal of backlash at the glorification of gang culture, misogyny, and drugs. There wasn't a widespread cultural concern from well to do whites that this was the wrong message to spread to the youth. There wasn't a counterargument from black people that this was merely "art" reflecting the realities of inner city life and not glorification.

It happened in the late 60s and early 70s, primarily as American corporations were given "cover" by the Civil Rights Act to openly market to black consumers. Prior to the Civil Rights Acts, corporations wanted black dollars but were afraid of being marked as "for blacks" if they marketed directly to blacks. They began marketing directly to blacks in the late 60s, and the media flocked to where there were advertising dollars. The problem was that the LA and NYC media didn't look any further than their own ghettos. They ignored the aspirational black cultures...which is probably rational because that culture responded just as readily to marketing targeted to whites.

You're old enough to recall these thing @RDKirk. You're old enough to remember what it was before and after the 80s. The media simply sells what sells....and the kids weren't demanding De La Soul and the Fresh Prince or LL Cool J by the 90s. By the time Masta P was rapping about how to make crack and riding a golden tank, no one was even pretending that it wasn't about glorification.

Yeah, to be sure, ghetto was attracted to ghetto. The marketing worked.

Ironically the scotch-irish settled primarily in the northeast. Obviously Boston, but throughout Pennsylvania and as far south as Charleston and Savannah.

Sowell's theory that the rural southern accent is primarily a lower class English accent is interesting but I think he misses a lot of the French influence on it. The southern accent is a bit more complex that Sowell gives it credit for.

French influence is very severely limited to Louisiana.

I think the biggest damage done to black culture was accidentally done Malcolm X in his famous "field slave vs house slave" speech. While it may have served a purpose for its time....he created the idea that a black person who worked with or for white people was in some way in some capacity a betrayer to other black people. In doing so, he created the worst thing you can call a black person....a two word term that begins with "house" and ends with....well we all know how it ends.

In doing so, he erected a wall between black people and everyone else in this nation....not intentionally, but in the collective unconscious of black people everywhere. To adopt anything deemed a white way of acting, of speaking, or even a white way of succeeding is to risk a label of traitor to black people everywhere. This has narrowed, particularly in the young black male psyche, the number of paths forward in life to those few that he sees dominated by black people....or black men in particular.

No, Malcolm X was actually very much on the right track. I'm rather sorry now that I didn't pay him more attention at the time.

First, it's incorrect to say of Malcolm's ideology, "To adopt anything deemed a white way of acting, of speaking, or even a white way of succeeding is to risk a label of traitor to black people everywhere." In fact, among urban blacks, the Black Muslims in practice hewed very closely to white ways of speaking, acting, and succeeding.

They took a critical look at the slave culture we had adopted/been taught and made distinctions between that which was beneficial and that which was malevolent to black people. That's something the current "anti-colonizer" strand of Critical Theory is failing to do. They are the ones who are insisting on complete "decolonization" and declaring standard English and even mathematics to be "racist." Malcolm X never did that.

 

[rjs330]

To be honest, Western culture is a doggoned successful culture. European culture has 99 problems, but failure to thrive is not one of them.

As I've said before, we American descendants of slavery were stripped of our various African cultures and were both taught and exposed to a broken form of Anglo-American culture. It's "broken" because we were exposed to a culture that we were not fully allowed to adopt. For instance, slaves could not practice Anglo marriage. An enslaved woman could not devote herself to being mother and nurturer of her own family; an enslaved man could not be the provider and protector of her family. Yet, in Anglo-American culture, those were the primary goals and indicators of fully attained masculinity and femininity. Marriage between slaves wasn't even legally recognized. Enslaved men and women were usually not allowed to select their mates, enslaved mothers were frequently not able to keep their own children. After three hundred years of that, of course African American practice of marriage would be weakened, and concepts of masculinity and femininity would be distorted.

The enslaved were usually not allowed to read and write, which was a primary method of the transfer of Anglo-American culture. The enslaved could not practice planning for the future, either their personal future or their future generations. They had day-to-day lives with no idea what would happen to them in the future. Any day, they could sold.

The lives of enslaved people were cheap. They could not value themselves or each other...they were only the value of property, and could be killed at will by their masters. By Supreme Court judgment, no black man had any rights that any white man was obligated to respect.

That is a broken culture, and the effects continue to he seen.

African-American culture has, however, never been monolithic, although it has tended to be aspirational to the Anglo-American culture that has been the only model we have had (and certainly the most successful model we could observe). It has varied in broad levels in how it has emulated Anglo-American culture to the extent allowed by the majority group, as well as which Anglo-American culture broad groups of black people were exposed to and thus emulated.

In the early centuries, there was a freedman culture of the northeast that was aspirational to northeast Anglo-American culture. Enslaved people in the southern Atlantic coast aspirationally emulated the England-based culture of their aristocratic white slaveowners in that area.

However, the enslaved of the Gulf Coast states had no choice but to emulate the decidedly more vulgar Scots-Irish slaveholder culture they were exposed to, and that turned out to be the greatest proportion of enslaved people.

During the Great Northern Migration during the early 20th century, the cultural difference between blacks who had emulated the Scots-Irish slaveholders of the Gulf States and those who had emulated Northerners or South Atlantic aristocrats was plain to see. It was visible into the 1980s, by which time the popular media had shifted from portraying blacks as the aspirational culture (as seen in the movie Hidden Figures and as represented in the Civil Rights Era) to portraying blacks as the urban ghetto...which actually represents the blacks of the Great Northern Migration of the Scots-Irish culture.

I had come to a conclusion decades ago (beginning in the early 60s, actually) that I've only recently learned is the opinion of Thomas Sowell: What we are shown as "black culture" (and both blacks and whites have bought into this) is really black "cracker" or "peckerwood" culture....and it was learned from white "crackers" and "peckerwoods" of the Gulf States. Up until the 70s into the 80s, other black people--those raised in the South or North Atlantic cultures, had abhorred that culture--just as their white counterparts did. But the reason you don't see those blacks represented in the media is because those blacks have assimilated. They don't stand out as a separate culture as they did prior to the Civil Rights Era, by which they were visible because they were segregated.

What do you think rhe predominant black culture is right now?

 

[Ana the Ist]

"Vulgar" in the sense of being non-aristocratic.

Commoner would have worked then.

What I said is being proven genetically.

Reference?

As you probably know, most descendants of American slavery have about 10-20% Caucasian admixture.

Seems a bit low.

As more and more of us are being tested, it's turning out that Caucasian genetic heritage is mostly Scottish.

Does that inherently mean Scottish slave owners?

I know that the idea of your ancestors not marrying a white man after they were freed or having their children after they were freed is an easy way to imagine it going down...but not necessarily the case. Plenty of black people have white grandmothers and grandfathers from the 20s and 30s that simply aren't talked about.

I'd also like to point out there's no genetic markers for Scottish. None. A lot of what 23@Me is selling is largely nonsense to collect your DNA for government databases. And people pay for it.

Heck, I'm 20% Scottish myself, and through census records I know the name of the white man on my father's side...."Kirk."

Kirk was a slaveholder?

This is representative of the frequency of rape of our ancestral mothers in slavery that occurred in the Gulf States.

I just want to be clear....Kirk is a slaveholder....not some guy who married your grandmother's mother or etc?

Caucasian admixture is proving to be much less among the descendants of American slavery along the Atlantic coast where there was much more attention paid to maintaining slave pedigrees. There are many black people on the Atlantic coast who can trace their ancestors all the way back to the first point of purchase from the slave ships, because of the care taken to maintain slave pedigrees.

Ok. Again...reference?

It happened in the late 60s and early 70s, primarily as American corporations were given "cover" by the Civil Rights Act to openly market to black consumers. Prior to the Civil Rights Acts, corporations wanted black dollars but were afraid of being marked as "for blacks" if they marketed directly to blacks. They began marketing directly to blacks in the late 60s, and the media flocked to where there were advertising dollars.

Uh huh....I'll take your word on this.

The problem was that the LA and NYC media didn't look any further than their own ghettos. They ignored the aspirational black cultures...which is probably rational because that culture responded just as readily to marketing targeted to whites.

You're saying they targeted marketing to poor blacks because they didn't respond to the marketing that appealed to both middle class blacks and whites.

Yeah, to be sure, ghetto was attracted to ghetto. The marketing worked.

French influence is very severely limited to Louisiana.

That's rather remarkable considering how much of the territory was French at one time. It's a bit like saying Spanish influences were limited to Mexico.

No, Malcolm X was actually very much on the right track. I'm rather sorry now that I didn't pay him more attention at the time.

You don't say....

First, it's incorrect to say of Malcolm's ideology, "To adopt anything deemed a white way of acting, of speaking, or even a white way of succeeding is to risk a label of traitor to black people everywhere."

I'm not saying that was his ideology. I'm referring to perhaps his most famous speech. Whether or not it was his intention to leave that concept in the minds of black people is debatable but that's what it became.

In fact, among urban blacks, the Black Muslims in practice hewed very closely to white ways of speaking, acting, and succeeding.

Which black Muslims are you referring to?

They took a critical look at the slave culture we had adopted/been taught and made distinctions between that which was beneficial and that which was malevolent to black people. That's something the current "anti-colonizer" strand of Critical Theory is failing to do. They are the ones who are insisting on complete "decolonization" and declaring standard English and even mathematics to be "racist." Malcolm X never did that.

We like to imagine the cultural contributions of various thought leaders as far greater than they were. Ask the average black person the ideology of Malcolm X and my guess is you won't get much (same if you ask a white person) but ask them what a house slave is and why they're despised and you'll get plenty. That's what he left the black community...sorry to say it, and it certainly hasn't been his intention, but the idea being that sort of black person wasn't a common insult prior to Malcolm X, but it's plenty common now.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The problem is that you think the disparity proves something.

We can take any two groups....men 32 years old and men 33 years old....and we'd expect a disparity. Does the disparity mean that the men 32yo are being discriminated against? No. It's just a disparity.

The argument that if you can’t prove it doesn’t exist then it must exist is an absolute absurdity. I’m sure we could both explain why this is an erroneous argument but I think we can probably agree that it’s a pointless discussion with someone who isn’t interested in having an honest discussion on the subject.

 

[BCP1928]

What do you think rhe predominant black culture is right now?

American.

 

[rjs330]

American.

I didn't ask you. Kirk was talking about the black culture and how it's changed through the years. I'd like to hear his thoughts on rhe matter. Then you can discuss it with him if you disagree.

 

[RDKirk]

What do you think rhe predominant black culture is right now?

As I've said before, we American descendants of slavery were stripped of our various African cultures and were both taught and exposed to a broken form of Anglo-American culture. It's "broken" because we were exposed to a culture that we were not fully allowed to adopt.

So, it's a broken Anglo-American culture.

Here is a test:

Take a group of black inner city kids. Any inner city: North Omaha, south Chicago, SE DC, SE Dallas. Take those kids to a movie theater or playhouse to watch any production of Romeo and Juliet. Even though Romeo and Juliet was written 400 years ago by an Englishman who'd never ventured more than 100 miles from his birthplace, those black inner city kids will get Romeo and Juliet. Despite the archaic English, the kids will understand the motivations of the characters. They will understand the story.

Then, after they've seen Romeo and Juliet, bring in a Nigerian griot and have that griot tell a 400-year-old story in his own tribal language. Of course, the kids won't even understand the language, so let's give them a translation. They still won't understand the story. They won't understand the motivations of the characters.

That's a difference in culture, which goes far deeper than music or clothing or food. Culture goes down to how we interpret our relationship with the world and with each other. Culture is how we view good and evil, honor and dishonor, truth and falsehood, gender and age, familial relationships, courage and cowardice, loyalty and betrayal...even how we measure time.

In all those respects, we descendants of American slavery have an Anglo-American culture, albeit broken and albeit more attuned to the more vulgar aspects of Anglo-American society.

What we see most represented in the media is black America's version of what American whites call "trailer trash," "crackers," or "peckerwoods."

This is different from rednecks, country folk, or even hillbillies...there are black versions of those as well.

 

[rturner76]

The problem is that you think the disparity proves something

The evaluation written up by the government which I posted shows how the disparity applies to blacks receiving more harsh sentences than white males in a similar situation. The real problem is that you won't allow any information that contradicts your personal world view to penetrate your insight. The article shows the disparity and it shows why there is one. You just can't accept that you are wrong. I understand it's hard to admit when you are wrong, especially if you are wrong about the way you look at the world but there it is. Whether you accept it or deny it the fact remains that black men get treated differently than white men who come to court under a similar situation.

1. Laws and policies that appear race-neutral have a disparate racial impact.

2. Racial bias influences criminal legal practitioners’ use of discretion.

3. A financially burdensome and under-resourced criminal legal system puts people with low incomes, who are disproportionately people of color, at a disadvantage.

Blacks are more likely than whites to be confined awaiting trial (which increases the probability that an incarcerative sentence will be imposed), to receive incarcerative rather than community sentences, and to receive longer sentences. Racial differences found at each stage are typically modest, but their cumulative effect is significant.

One in Five: Racial Disparity in Imprisonment — Causes and Remedies – The Sentencing Project

Learn three main causes of racial disparity in imprisonment and promising reforms from across the country that can mitigate their impact.

www.sentencingproject.org

 

[Ana the Ist]

The evaluation written up by the government which I posted shows how the disparity applies to blacks receiving more harsh sentences than white males in a similar situation.

On average.

The real problem is that you won't allow any information that contradicts your personal world view to penetrate your insight.

No the real problem is I understand what "on average" means. It means there's a significant number of white men in that study who had longer sentences than the black men.

The article shows the disparity and it shows why there is one.

No....it just shows the disparity.

You just can't accept that you are wrong. I understand it's hard to admit when you are wrong

I can show you posts where I've admitted I was wrong.

This is you attacking the character of other posters because you struggle to make good arguments.

1. Laws and policies that appear race-neutral have a disparate racial impact.

That's not necessarily a feature of the law. As the graph I showed you proves....black people commit more murder than any other race in the US.

That's a disparity.

Does that mean there's something unfair with the law against murder?

 

[RDKirk]

The evaluation written up by the government which I posted shows how the disparity applies to blacks receiving more harsh sentences than white males in a similar situation. The real problem is that you won't allow any information that contradicts your personal world view to penetrate your insight. The article shows the disparity and it shows why there is one. You just can't accept that you are wrong. I understand it's hard to admit when you are wrong, especially if you are wrong about the way you look at the world but there it is. Whether you accept it or deny it the fact remains that black men get treated differently than white men who come to court under a similar situation.

1. Laws and policies that appear race-neutral have a disparate racial impact.

2. Racial bias influences criminal legal practitioners’ use of discretion.

3. A financially burdensome and under-resourced criminal legal system puts people with low incomes, who are disproportionately people of color, at a disadvantage.

Blacks are more likely than whites to be confined awaiting trial (which increases the probability that an incarcerative sentence will be imposed), to receive incarcerative rather than community sentences, and to receive longer sentences. Racial differences found at each stage are typically modest, but their cumulative effect is significant.

One in Five: Racial Disparity in Imprisonment — Causes and Remedies – The Sentencing Project

Learn three main causes of racial disparity in imprisonment and promising reforms from across the country that can mitigate their impact.

www.sentencingproject.org

So, what?

From the point of view of being black, and from the point of view of having watched my parents and grandparents and the people around us before the Civil Rights Act, I cannot accept that any of those points should have resulted in the current lack of thriving among black people. All of those were 1000% percent worse for my grandparents' and parents' generation, yet they were doing better in the statistics that depend on personal integrity and social morals. If those people were in this environment, there would be Black Wall Street again.

Some of this is bigger than Black Americans. The social downfall in the US today is that the Millennial and X Generations have been taught to view themselves as victims in any way they can find, and if they aren't already in a "victimized identity group," then invent a victimized identity group. That attitude is reflected in black Millennials and X Genners as well. This is from various flavors of Critical Theory that invaded the college campuses in the 60s and has been disseminated across the board today.

For my parents, the law and the police were outright enemies. Black people were persecuted for nothing, or for kicks. The situation as gone from black people being persecuted for nothing to black people being persecuted "too much" for crimes they actually did commit. And this is something noted by older black people.

Regardless of the issues you've stated, let's say all that is true. It's still not an acceptable rationale for the current state of so many black people today, not given the degree we were handling much worse discrimination in the past.

 

[rjs330]

What we see most represented in the media is black America's version of what American whites call "trailer trash," "crackers," or "peckerwoods."

I'm not talking about what the media portrays. I'm talking about what is really going in the cities. You take a look at how they dress, the music they listen to and how they talk. How they behave in social interactions etc. The morals and mores.

You say its Anglo American but I I see a distinct difference from base Anglo American.

I good example more recently was when my family and I were visiting a mall. There were white kids there and black kids there. Teens are teens and they all did teen things. But it was very noticeable that the black kids were much louder and far more rude in manners than the white kids. They talked differently. The white kids tossed their trash in the garbage and the black kids just left for others to clean up.

What culture is that and where does it come from?

 

[RDKirk]

I'm not talking about what the media portrays. I'm talking about what is really going in the cities. You take a look at how they dress, the music they listen to and how they talk. How they behave in social interactions etc. The morals and mores.

You say its Anglo American but I I see a distinct difference from base Anglo American.

I good example more recently was when my family and I were visiting a mall. There were white kids there and black kids there. Teens are teens and they all did teen things. But it was very noticeable that the black kids were much louder and far more rude in manners than the white kids. They talked differently. The white kids tossed their trash in the garbage and the black kids just left for others to clean up.

What culture is that and where does it come from?

That's still American. What else could it be? Martian?

A lot of black people will say, "That's not black culture," but of course it is. Culture is what you have, it's not what you want, and it's all that you have, not what you cherry pick from it.

What you observed derives directly from a "white cracker" cultural base. You just don't see white crackers very much. White crackerism is universally abhorred and discouraged, while what is essentially "black crackerism" is exalted and encouraged. Heck, it's even taught in universities.

 

[Astrid]

But we would still have a civilization built by whites, you know, the one everyone is drawn to.

Everyone? "We"? "civilization"?

Keep it

My ancestors were writing poetry
while whites were still poking at cave
bears with sharp sticks.

 

[rjs330]

That's still American. What else could it be? Martian?

A lot of black people will say, "That's not black culture," but of course it is. Culture is what you have, it's not what you want, and it's all that you have, not what you cherry pick from it.

What you observed derives directly from a "white cracker" cultural base. You just don't see white crackers very much. White crackerism is universally abhorred and discouraged, while what is essentially "black crackerism" is exalted and encouraged. Heck, it's even taught in universities.

America does have some distinct subcultures as I'm sure every country does. I certainly have not taken a deep dive into very many countries cultures around the world, but I have visited quite a few and have noted some differences based upon where I was in the country. America is huge and to expect we all have exactly the same culture everywhere in the US would be unrealistic.

However there are some things that we have developed that help us be successful. White cracker culture doesn't help people be successful. Black cracker culture won't help people be successful either.

The sad part is nothing will change in the ability of these people to have strong sustained success until they decide to change the culture they have adopted. It will always be a hinderence.

Some of this is bigger than Black Americans. The social downfall in the US today is that the Millennial and X Generations have been taught to view themselves as victims in any way they can find, and if they aren't already in a "victimized identity group," then invent a victimized identity group. That attitude is reflected in black Millennials and X Genners as well. This is from various flavors of Critical Theory that invaded the college campuses in the 60s and has been disseminated across the board today.

For my parents, the law and the police were outright enemies. Black people were persecuted for nothing, or for kicks. The situation as gone from black people being persecuted for nothing to black people being persecuted "too much" for crimes they actually did commit. And this is something noted by older black people.

I agree with most of this. The victimization mentality has caused a lot of division. It perpetuates itself into blaming everyone else for your condition instead of taking a hard look at yourself. You may very well be a victim of something. But you don't have to stay one. What you do with adversity is completely up to you. And once you have a culture of victimhood it makes it even more difficult.

 

[RDKirk]

America does have some distinct subcultures as I'm sure every country does. I certainly have not taken a deep dive into very many countries cultures around the world, but I have visited quite a few and have noted some differences based upon where I was in the country. America is huge and to expect we all have exactly the same culture everywhere in the US would be unrealistic.

However there are some things that we have developed that help us be successful. White cracker culture doesn't help people be successful. Black cracker culture won't help people be successful either.

The sad part is nothing will change in the ability of these people to have strong sustained success until they decide to change the culture they have adopted. It will always be a hinderence.


I agree with most of this. The victimization mentality has caused a lot of division. It perpetuates itself into blaming everyone else for your condition instead of taking a hard look at yourself. You may very well be a victim of something. But you don't have to stay one. What you do with adversity is completely up to you. And once you have a culture of victimhood it makes it even more difficult.

I said earlier: Culture is a choice.

I knew many black people in my past encounters who were born into the black cracker culture and chose to leave it. But today, the political model is to stay in that culture, just as the political model is for fat people to stay fat.

The political model is to identify what you're being victimized for and double down on it. Don't be a traitor to your victimization group!

Black Americans definitely were victimized for so very long. And then, just as the circumstances of our victimization were being lifted...it became politically advantageous to be victimized.

 

[timothyu]

My ancestors were writing poetry

Perhaps but today everyone flocks to the white culture and what it produces. You don't see reverse mass migrations.