Systemic racism in the USA: Are whites "guiltier" if they had slavery in their past?

[rturner76]

any race that has more convictions is going to get higher sentences because they have a longer criminal record.

I recall proving that blacks and whites in similar situations have different outcomes. Please continue to try and justify this. Do you know what similar circumstances means? It means a similar background of convictions and being arrested for the same crime. Tell me again why blacks deserve more time for committing the same crime as a white with the same rap sheet? This should be great

 

[rturner76]

I didn't claim the source was corrupt. I actually think much of the information is accurate. The numbers are most likely accurate. But I still question the conclusions as to why the numbers are that way. Because there is a lot of information that is left out.

You question them because they do not line up with your personal worldview which is based on nothing but your personal experience and opinion..

The report doesn't prove systemic racism.

If you see a report entitled "Still disparity between black and whites in the justice system or something to that effect, then you see right at the top of the report that blacks and whites who come to court with a similar record and are charged with the same crime, blacks get more time and less probation than their white counterparts. I don't see why you are still confusing facts with your personal opinion. You have been proven wrong, just let it go. We can't get all of them right.

I believe you are capable of learning and absorbing new information, even when your opinion disagrees with facts. The thing is that facts are more reliable than your lay opinion based on your personal experience and the way you look at the world.

Not only all of that but how can on freely admit that the government is corrupt but refuse there is corruption in the government in the form of racism?

 

[rjs330]

We live in a multicultural, multi racial society. I believe that if we are ever going to address these issues....we should....

1. Teach children that these are superficial characteristics that people are born with...and judging people according to these characteristics isn't just wrong, it's the very essence of bigotry.

I most certainly agree.

2. De-emphasize the cultural differences between groups. While many people are proud of the cultures their families came from prior to living in the US, they left those nations for a reason. The flaws of those places were bad enough that everyone's ancestors decided to leave. While black people and those who came here as indentured servants may be the exception...we all have the ability to return to those places should we wish to do so...and we don't. Like it or not, we're all in this together, and we should act accordingly.

I agree with this too. With the continual push for cultural diversity we end up with more division. Cultural appropriation is a good example of this. We should be incorporating the good things out of various cultures instead of holding on to the bad things of our own.
My grandparents left Germany before WWII and immigrated to Canada. They wanted their kids to grow up Canadian and not German. Of course they came through WWI and the aftermath. They didn't allow the boys to learn German and made them speak English and become Canadians. I'm not saying that was all the right thing to do, but they wanted the kids to focus in the good of Canada society, embracing the main culture.

 

[rjs330]

You question them because they do not line up with your personal worldview which is based on nothing but your personal experience and opinion..

I question them because of the lack.of information.

If you see a report entitled "Still disparity between black and whites in the justice system or something to that effect, then you see right at the top of the report that blacks and whites who come to court with a similar record and are charged with the same crime, blacks get more time and less probation than their white counterparts.

Where is the evidence of that. I know thats what the report says, but where are all these cases that were used to prove this?

You have been proven wrong, just let it go. We can't get all of them right.

When you actually provide the evidence of all the cases that were used and I can verify what they said then I can truly have an informed opinion. I don't think there is systemic racism in the justice system and you haven't proven otherwise. All that could be said at this point if the information is correct is.that there may be racist judges in the system. It doesn't mean the system itself is racist.

believe you are capable of learning and absorbing new information, even when your opinion disagrees with facts. The thing is that facts are more reliable than your lay opinion based on your personal experience and the way you look at the world.

Your opinion is based upon incomplete information. You don't even know.for sure that the statements made are correct. And even if they are perhaps.all that can be said is there are.some judges that are racist or perhaps some prosecutors. Who are most definitely part of the system, but who.make thoer own individual.choices on what to do. There is nothing built into the system itself.

Not only all of that but how can on freely admit that the government is corrupt but refuse there is corruption in the government in the form of racism?

I think I answered that question. I think there definitely are racists in the system. I think there are anti-christian bigots in the system as well. But the system.is neutral.

 

[rturner76]

I question them because of the lack.of information.

I posted plenty of information and links which all included references to where the information came from. Don't blame me for not doing your due diligence.

Where is the evidence of that. I know thats what the report says, but where are all these cases that were used to prove this?

It's in the many articles I have posted. Have you tried reading the free information I have made available to you?

I don't think there is systemic racism in the justice system and you haven't proven otherwise.

That's my point. You don't "believe" it so any proof you have been given will easily be dismissed as either "incomplete" or "corrupt." You basically just stated that you are not willing to accept any information that is contrary to your opinion

Your opinion is based upon incomplete information.

It's complete and concise. Try reading it. If you can't get past your personal bias and accept proven facts, you will never understand. The blinders won't allow you to absorb any information that might make you question your worldview. Like KRS-ONE said YOU MUST LEARN!

 

[Ana the Ist]

I recall proving that blacks and whites in similar situations have different outcomes. Please continue to try and justify this. Do you know what similar circumstances means?

Sure....it means that because two people are facing similar charges and have similar records....you expect similar results.

Records and charges aren't the only factors though.

It means a similar background of convictions and being arrested for the same crime. Tell me again why blacks deserve more time for committing the same crime as a white with the same rap sheet? This should be great

Nobody is saying that they so. The problem is that you don't know what an average is in regards to statistics.

If black men convicted of simple assault got, on average, 3 months longer than white men convicted of simple assault...does that mean all the black men convicted were sentenced to more time than all the white men?

Or did the judge sentence some of the white men to more time than some of the black men?

https://ifunny.co/video/the-data-boys-u-s-murder-rate-by-race-rate-8Diii2kSB

For some reason, Google makes it harder and harder to find that graphic. You can literally see the point where BLM destroys effective policing in the black community.

Perhaps if you want to focus on statistics, that one should take priority over which convicted felon got a slightly longer sentence than another.

 

[rturner76]

Sure....it means that because two people are facing similar charges and have similar records....you expect similar results.

Records and charges aren't the only factors though

Right, another factor is.........Is this person white or black? Is this person poor or does their family have money?

Nobody is saying that they so. The problem is that you don't know what an average is in regards to statistics.

If black men convicted of simple assault got, on average, 3 months longer than white men convicted of simple assault...does that mean all the black men convicted were sentenced to more time than all the white men?

Or did the judge sentence some of the white men to more time than some of the black men?

If on average, whites and blacks in the same situation get unequal treatment, don't try to justify it. Accept that that is the case and do your best to not let your prejudice dictate the way you treat people. That would help society close some of these gaps. There are no excuses you or your friend can make that make this okay unless you include the "I'm white so that makes me right" argument. The proof is there in your face. Now you can either let your personal worldview and opinion make you blind to this situation or you can accept it, say that sucks, and move forward.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If on average, whites and blacks in the same situation get unequal treatment, don't try to justify it.

I don't have to justify it....

I'm asking if you understand that even if a judge, on average, sentences black men to 3 months longer than he does white men for simple assault.....

Do you understand that he still sentences some white men longer than he does black men? Or do you think that means every black man convicted of simple assault does more time than a white man sentenced by this judge?

I'm just trying to figure out if you understand the basics of these statistics.

 

[rjs330]

Let quote from the government report that was used in regards to try and show systemic racism.

Before I do the report NEVER claimed there was systemic racism. That is a conclusion drawn by posters on this forum.

Secondly the report said this after giving caution to the report. That the report does not and cannot take into consideration many things the judges.co sider during sentencing. You kust read the report with caution.

"For example, judges may consider potentially relevant information available to them in a presentence report, such as an offender’s employment history or family circumstances. However, the Commission does not routinely extract this information from the sentencing documents it receives and, therefore, data about those factors are not controlled for in this analysis. Additionally, judges may make decisions about sentencing offenders based on other legitimate considerations that cannot be measured. Because multivariate regression analysis cannot control for all of the factors that judges may consider, the results of the analyses presented in this report should be interpreted with caution and should not be taken to suggest discrimination on the part of judges. Multivariate analysis cannot explain why the observed differences in sentencing outcomes exist, but only that they do exist."

Those that use this report as a claim of systemic racism have completely disregarded the caution admonished by this report. For those interested it is on the last page of the report.

 

[rjs330]

posted plenty of information and links which all included references to where the information came from. Don't blame me for not doing your due diligence.

I looked at your report and it did not contain the information you claim. It does not list particular cases.at all.

Secondly your report gives you a caution at the end of it which you failed to heed.
See post #749.

 

[BCP1928]

I most certainly agree.

I agree with this too. With the continual push for cultural diversity we end up with more division. Cultural appropriation is a good example of this. We should be incorporating the good things out of various cultures instead of holding on to the bad things of our own.
My grandparents left Germany before WWII and immigrated to Canada. They wanted their kids to grow up Canadian and not German. Of course they came through WWI and the aftermath. They didn't allow the boys to learn German and made them speak English and become Canadians. I'm not saying that was all the right thing to do, but they wanted the kids to focus in the good of Canada society, embracing the main culture.

That sounds like a good idea, but it won't work here because of disagreement about what the "main culture" is.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I recall proving that blacks and whites in similar situations have different outcomes. Please continue to try and justify this. Do you know what similar circumstances means? It means a similar background of convictions and being arrested for the same crime. Tell me again why blacks deserve more time for committing the same crime as a white with the same rap sheet? This should be great

The term “similar circumstances” is a very loose term and in a courtroom specific details about the crime are taken into consideration and have an effect of sentencing. You can keep trying all you want to make the article say what you want it to say but without the specific details about each case you haven’t actually PROVED ANYTHING. Two people charged with the same crime can have two completely different sentences based on the nature of the crime. For example two people can be convicted of assault, one might receive a stiffer sentence for inflicting more harm on the victim than the other. One might receive a stiffer sentence for fleeing to escape. One might receive a stiffer sentence for pleading innocent instead of pleading guilty. One might receive a stiffer sentences based on the demographic of the victim, for example if the victim is an elderly person. One might receive a stiffer sentence for the reason why they attacked the victim. Your article doesn’t specify what exactly is considered to be “similar circumstances”. Does it mean they were both charged with the same crime? Does it mean they have the same number of crimes? Does it mean they both pled innocent or guilty? Does it mean they both inflicted the same amount of harm on the victim? Does it mean they both attacked someone of a similar age? Does it mean they both attacked the victim for the same or similar reasons? If my daughter is dating some guy and he slaps her and I go find him and beat the snot out of him I get charged for the same crime as someone who attacked an elderly person for no reason. If I hit the guy in the face one time I get charged with the same crime as someone who, for no reason, breaks an elderly person’s arm or put them in the hospital. The charge is the exact same, but the details of the crime MANDATE a stiffer sentence. The article doesn’t tell us ANYTHING about specific details of any crime, it’s an overgeneralization of the facts and DOESN’T GIVE ANY OF THIS INFORMATION THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL FOR SUPPORTING YOUR CLAIM. So again YOU HAVEN’T PROVEN ANYTHING. You know full well that this is true but you don’t care. The only thing you care about is creating a false narrative that supports your agenda.

 

[BCP1928]

The term “similar circumstances” is a very loose term and in a courtroom specific details about the crime are taken into consideration and have an effect of sentencing. You can keep trying all you want to make the article say what you want it to say but without the specific details about each case you haven’t actually PROVED ANYTHING. Two people charged with the same crime can have two completely different sentences based on the nature of the crime. For example two people can be convicted of assault, one might receive a stiffer sentence for inflicting more harm on the victim than the other. One might receive a stiffer sentence for fleeing to escape. One might receive a stiffer sentence for pleading innocent instead of pleading guilty. One might receive a stiffer sentences based on the demographic of the victim, for example if the victim is an elderly person. One might receive a stiffer sentence for the reason why they attacked the victim. Your article doesn’t specify what exactly is considered to be “similar circumstances”. Does it mean they were both charged with the same crime? Does it mean they have the same number of crimes? Does it mean they both pled innocent or guilty? Does it mean they both inflicted the same amount of harm on the victim? Does it mean they both attacked someone of a similar age? Does it mean they both attacked the victim for the same or similar reasons? If my daughter is dating some guy and he slaps her and I go find him and beat the snot out of him I get charged for the same crime as someone who attacked an elderly person for no reason. If I hit the guy in the face one time I get charged with the same crime as someone who, for no reason, breaks an elderly person’s arm or put them in the hospital. The charge is the exact same, but the details of the crime MANDATE a stiffer sentence. The article doesn’t tell us ANYTHING about specific details of any crime, it’s an overgeneralization of the fact and DOESN’T GIVE ANY OF THIS INFORMATION THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL FOR SUPPORTING YOUR CLAIM. So again YOU HAVEN’T PROVEN ANYTHING.

You guys go on about this stuff as if you had discovered an obvious flaw that researchers in the field have somehow overlooked. Do you do that in order to impute wicked motives to them?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You guys go on about this stuff as if you had discovered an obvious flaw that researchers in the field have somehow overlooked. Do you do that in order to impute wicked motives to them?

You like statistics so much why not post a statistic showing that they commit less crimes than other races according to their population? Here’s what the FBI says on the subject. They make up roughly 13% of the population, is that reflected in the statistics provided below?

Table 43

ucr.fbi.gov

 

[BCP1928]

You like statistics so much why not post a statistic showing that they commit less crimes than other races according to their population? Here’s what the FBI says on the subject. They make up roughly 13% of the population, is that reflected in the statistics provided below?

Table 43

ucr.fbi.gov

That's what I thought.

 

[rturner76]

You can keep trying all you want to make the article say what you want it to say but without the specific details about each case you haven’t actually PROVED ANYTHING.

Then why not examine the sources they use. I do understand though that you will never be convinced no matter how much data you are privy to. You have your way of thinking which cannot be altered by things like factual analysis. I proved it but you proved that you are not willing to accept anything but your own opinion. Don't blame me for your inability to absorb information counter to your personal opinion.

Having said that, have you given any proof that there is no disparity?

 

[RDKirk]

That sounds like a good idea, but it won't work here because of disagreement about what the "main culture" is.

I don't think there is any disagreement about what the "main culture" in the US is. It's an Anglo-American culture. Even those who are opposed to it and preach "decolonization" assert that the main US culture is Anglo-American.

 

[RDKirk]

You guys go on about this stuff as if you had discovered an obvious flaw that researchers in the field have somehow overlooked. Do you do that in order to impute wicked motives to them?

Researchers can be biased--and more often, those who report research can be biased.

 

[timothyu]

The world for more than a century has flocked to acquire the customs, culture and gadgetry of 'western' culture of European origins, with or without colonization. Why is it that others are drawn to Caucasian ways of life?

 

[Ana the Ist]

You guys go on about this stuff as if you had discovered an obvious flaw that researchers in the field have somehow overlooked. Do you do that in order to impute wicked motives to them?

If you knew how bad the "experts" of various fields and their research actually is....this post would take on a whole new level of hilarity.

The former president of Harvard? The black woman who had to testify before Congress? Turned out her work was largely plagiarized.

That's the most prestigious level of the most prestigious university and her work was a total joke.

Yes, many of us were doing research in college or analyzing it for problems, yes many of us are more than capable of looking at research and finding the flaws. Sometimes they're so glaring that it's baffling how that research got published.