Dutch woman, 29, granted euthanasia approval on grounds of mental suffering

[Tropical Wilds]

Individual humans are rational and social creatures. Society isn't obligated to assist people ending their lives.

Not all of them are. And nobody is obligating anybody else to assist in ending their lives.

 

[Chrystal-J]

And nobody is obligating anybody else to assist in ending their lives.

How will they get the pills to take to kill themselves?

 

[Lukaris]

I would guess that she had many antidepressants prescribed through the years. It makes me wonder if there were negative side affects that resulted in being counterproductive?

 

[Pommer]

I would guess that she had many antidepressants prescribed through the years. It makes me wonder if there were negative side affects that resulted in being counterproductive?

Depression is hardly ever terminal, but in the instant case, she’d like it to be, seeings as the treatments she’s had have had no effect for her?
She didn’t start out with, “I’m depressed, I should be able to get my nation’s health system to kill me.”

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I know there's pearl clutching over this subject.

But I'll throw a curveball in the mix.

If we're free citizens with freedom of conscience and bodily autonomy, why does someone have to live and participate in "the human experience" if they don't want to?

Even if their reasons for wanting to "exit...stage left" are superficial and shallow? (guessing that's not the case for this person, I would assume they've tried every conventional treatment to no avail). Why should any free person be forced to suffer through an existence they're not content with if they don't want to?

 

[Lukaris]

Depression is hardly ever terminal, but in the instant case, she’d like it to be, seeings as the treatments she’s had have had no effect for her?
She didn’t start out with, “I’m depressed, I should be able to get my nation’s health system to kill me.”

It seems possible that a person may end up worse off from antidepressants perhaps to the point of despair thinking death as the only option. Something like this might take years to build up.

Antidepressant discontinuation syndrome - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Belk]

I know there's pearl clutching over this subject.

But I'll throw a curveball in the mix.

If we're free citizens with freedom of conscience and bodily autonomy, why does someone have to live and participate in "the human experience" if they don't want to?

Even if their reasons for wanting to "exit...stage left" are superficial and shallow? (guessing that's not the case for this person, I would assume they've tried every conventional treatment to no avail). Why should any free person be forced to suffer through an existence they're not content with if they don't want to?

This has been my view for quite some time. The only thing I truly own in this world is my body and life. I brook no ones claim to having a say in either of them that I do not approve of.

 

[FireDragon76]

Society isn't obligated to do anything. Society is nothing more then our collective agreement. This is not really an argument so much as a statement of preference on your part.

This is a very stupid and foolish view of human nature. Most cultures have understood that human beings are by nature social and communal. I agree with them. Even our sense of self is a creation of the society in which we live.

 

[FireDragon76]

It seems possible that a person may end up worse off from antidepressants perhaps to the point of despair thinking death as the only option. Something like this might take years to build up.

Antidepressant discontinuation syndrome - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The evidence for the efficacy of SSRI's against depression is exceedingly weak, embarassingly so, even. Most studies involve heavily massaged data.

There are drugs that actually are more than sugar pills, like psychedelics or dissociatives, but their apparrent efficacy is due to increased neuroplasticity and allowing more pliability in terms of cognitive and ego structures. Similar, though less immediately dramatic effects can be achieved through meditation or spiritual practices that induce flow states.

Needless to say, it is wrong to see depression as an incurable illness. That just isn't in keeping with the actual medical or scientific evidence.

 

[Belk]

This is a very stupid and foolish view of human nature. Most cultures have understood that human beings are by nature social and communal. I agree with them. Even our sense of self is a creation of the society in which we live.

We will see an argument at any point or are you going to stick with your irrelevant opinion of my views?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

How will they get the pills to take to kill themselves?

Through doctors and those who participate in the program, as the article describes.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

The evidence for the efficacy of SSRI's against depression is exceedingly weak, embarassingly so, even. Most studies involve heavily massaged data.

There are drugs that actually are more than sugar pills, like psychedelics or dissociatives, but their apparrent efficacy is due to increased neuroplasticity and allowing more pliability in terms of cognitive and ego structures. Similar, though less immediately dramatic effects can be achieved through meditation or spiritual practices that induce flow states.

Needless to say, it is wrong to see depression as an incurable illness. That just isn't in keeping with the actual medical or scientific evidence.

The evidence for efficacy is only weak if you're operating off of the flawed expectations of "makes a depressed person feel completely normal"
(which any clinician worth their salt will tell you that's not the realistic expectation).

If the standard is "taking it from a 10 down to a 5 or 6", then they work pretty well to stave off the most extreme parts of it.


The argument you're making is similar to the flawed argument people make when they say "chemotherapy doesn't work, see...93% of the people put on it still die of cancer". When nobody ever said "total lasting remission" was the expected result in most cases. But rather, it can take a person who would otherwise only have only 6 months without it, and turn that into another 2-3 years for them and slow the process down.

 

[Chrystal-J]

Through doctors and those who participate in the program, as the article describes.

You said no one would have to assist. The doctor would be responsible for the death of their patient.

 

[Lukaris]

Sometimes I wonder if just trying to instill a sense of purpose for someone to live life ends up neglected. I believe it is attempted but is it discarded prematurely? Maybe just instilling a sense that anyone who can get out there and have a job and, at a minimum, have a sense of mutual respect on the individual level ( as best as possible)?

Just by doing this taxes are paid which helps others live as one tries to make their own ends meet. There is no need for exaggeration just a sense of functional, but valuable, purpose.

I have ongoing depression & reached critical mass in my 20s ( now 60). I am not criticizing anyone in despair; I was just blessed to overcome it. Socializing with people has never been as difficult although I will try to be helpful if necessary. Thankfully , I found the Gospel along the way ( a few years after overcoming despair). Surely the majority of people in the world have it harder than me.

I just find this story to be a very bad development for society in general. Again, I am not condemning or criticizing this woman even if I think she made a mistake.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Dutch woman, 29, granted euthanasia approval on grounds of mental suffering

Zoraya ter Beek, who has chronic depression, anxiety, trauma and unspecified personality disorder, expected to end her life soon

www.theguardian.com

It started out that you had to be terminally ill with a short time to live, now they're killing some healthy lady (with depression) because she wants to die. Where will it end? Will the pressure to have yourself killed be applied so you won't be a "burden on society"?

This has actually been a noted problem in Canada for awhile now....assisted suicide for treatable medical issues. I don't remember the exact activist group that was pushing it for political reasons (it seemed incredibly stupid) but I had looked into it because it seemed like an effect of a public healthcare system that was in disrepair.

Another public healthcare system in disrepair wad S Korea....who had a significant number of new, young doctors on strike because of poor working conditions and low pay....leading to serious medical issues and without any swift solutions, potentially decreasing healthcare outcomes.

Obviously, I have no idea if cracks in the Dutch public healthcare system are the reason for the increasing number of viable reasons for assisted suicide. I will say that it does appear to be one of those actual slippery slopes that people predicted before it was apparent. The number of conditions for assisted suicide (where assisted suicide is a viable option in healthcare) only ever increases....it doesn't decrease.

 

[FireDragon76]

The evidence for efficacy is only weak if you're operating off of the flawed expectations of "makes a depressed person feel completely normal"
(which any clinician worth their salt will tell you that's not the realistic expectation).

If the standard is "taking it from a 10 down to a 5 or 6", then they work pretty well to stave off the most extreme parts of it.


The argument you're making is similar to the flawed argument people make when they say "chemotherapy doesn't work, see...93% of the people put on it still die of cancer". When nobody ever said "total lasting remission" was the expected result in most cases. But rather, it can take a person who would otherwise only have only 6 months without it, and turn that into another 2-3 years for them and slow the process down.

The evidence that SSRI's are little more than placebos is fairly robust:

Kirsch I, Deacon BJ, Huedo-Medina TB, Scoboria A, Moore TJ, Johnson BT. Initial severity and antidepressant benefits: a meta-analysis of data submitted to the Food and Drug Administration. PLoS Med. 2008;5(2):e45.

 

[FireDragon76]

We will see an argument at any point or are you going to stick with your irrelevant opinion of my views?

The premise itself you are operating from, that the liberal, western notion of the self is universal and beyond deconstruction, is wrong.

 

[Belk]

The premise itself you are operating from, that the liberal, western notion of the self is universal and beyond deconstruction, is wrong.

So that is a no to an argument? Just declarations? Your choice of course but was really interested in hearing your reasoning.

 

[FireDragon76]

So that is a no to an argument? Just declarations? Your choice of course but was really interested in hearing your reasoning.

There's no point in further debate when your basic premise is wrong. The notion of the individual, the autonomous self, without natural obligations to society, is a fiction of the western European Enlightenment that has extended into the present.

 

[RileyG]

If anything, I only wish this woman peace. I cannot imagine the pain she is in.