Revelation 11 and Revelation 12

[Douggg]

My goodness, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. No, Doug, Christians don't and never will worship the beast. Christians are those whose names ARE written in the book of life. That verse is referring to those who worship the beast and whose names ARE NOT written in the book of life, which you highlighted in red and said are Christians. No, they clearly are not Christians.

The implication of that written in red is that those who's name are written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world are Christians.

The unsaved will worship the beast. Christians will not worship the beast..

keras, had challenged my position that there will be people who become Christians during the great tribulation, since I maintain that Christians, the church, will be taken out of the world before the great tribulation begins, by being raptured to heaven. So I used verse Revelation 13:8 to show that there will be Christians in the world during the great tribulation, but they become Christians after the rapture of the church, the body of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The implication of that written in red is that those who's name are written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world are Christians.

The unsaved will worship the beast. Christians will not worship the beast..

That's not what you indicated in your other post. You might want to edit it. What was written in red referred to those whose names are NOT written in the book of life and you said those written about in red are Christians. The way you worded it gave the impression that you were saying those who worship the beast and don't have their names written in the book of life are Christians. I figured that isn't what you actually believe, but I was just going by what you said.

keras, had challenged my position that there will be people who become Christians during the great tribulation, since I maintain that Christians, the church, will be taken out of the world before the great tribulation begins, by being raptured to heaven. So I used verse Revelation 13:8 to show that there will be Christians in the world during the great tribulation, but they become Christians after the rapture of the church, the body of Christ.

I'm not going to bother arguing against your pre-great trib rapture position since you already know I disagree with it, but I certainly would agree that people would become Christians during the great tribulation just as people have always become Christians through great tribulation.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

All who recognize that the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.

Spiritual Israel. The only children of the woman mentioned in Revelation 12 are Jesus Himself as well as His followers and that is not a description of national Israel.

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Revelation 12:17 is after the Jews en-masse have turned to Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

 

[Douggg]

That's not what you indicated in your other post. You might want to edit it.

Okay, I went back and edited my post #26.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 12:17 is after the Jews en-masse have turned to Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

The book of Revelation is a New Testament book and the New Testament focuses primarily on Jesus Christ and His church which is comprised of Jew and Gentile believers. There is no basis whatsoever to exclude Gentile believers among "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus".

 

[keras]

Revelation 12:17 is after the Jews en-masse have turned to Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

The apostate and atheistic Jews now face punishment and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 22:14, Matthew 8:12
There is just no scripture to support your idea of a general Jewish redemption, but plenty of Prophecy tells us that after 2000 years of their rejection of Jesus, God will have lost His patience with them.
They will be virtually wiped out, on the forthcoming Lords Day of fiery wrath, along with all of the false religion and wicked peoples. Jeremiah 12:14

 

[Douggg]

Well, not all of modern day Israel was saved in 1967, so you probably need to rethink this.

You also need to rethink which Israel Paul was talking about there.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Paul indicated that the Israel of which all are children of God (all saved) has nothing to do with being a natural descendant of Israel or Abraham. That contradicts your understanding of the Israel of which all shall be saved. It is the Spiritual Israel of God of which all are and all will be saved, not national Israel.

I agree about 1967. The number of Jews becoming Christians back then was probably a small percentage.

The big en-masse turning of the Jews to Jesus and the gospel of salvation will be in the middle part of the 7 years - after their thought to be messiah (the Antichrist) betrays them and the Mt. Sinai covenant by claiming to have achieved God-hood.

The two witnesses will be in Jerusalem warning them that he is not the messiah. When what the two witnesses prophesy in those days comes to pass, that will be major factor of the Jews turning to Jesus.

Revelation 11:3 really does not say what they will prophesy, only that they will testify and prophesy.

Revlation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[Marilyn C]

The 2 witnesses, will witness of Christ -

`Then behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.` (Luke 9: 30 & 31)

Here we read of the Lord talking to two men, Moses and Elijah concerning what He was about to do - go to the cross. Then later we see these same two men at other significant times - the tomb and the ascension.

`And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. Then as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they (the two men) said to them (disciples) "Why do you seek the living among the dead? he is not here, but is risen...` (Luke 24: 4 - 6)

`And while they looked steadfastly towards heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (Acts 1: 10 & 11)

Thus we see that these `two men,` Moses and Elijah knew of the Lord`s sacrifice, His burial and resurrection and finally His ascension into heaven. They are precisely the two men who will be qualified to talk to Israel in the tribulation, for they represent the `law and the Prophets,` and are a `witness` to the Messiah - His death, resurrection and ascension.

That is why they are called `witnesses.` What have they witnessed? - Jesus on earth, talking of His departure, His resurrection and ascension, plus speaking of His return in like manner. Who best qualified to speak of those things but the two witnesses - eye witnesses - Moses & Elijah.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I agree about 1967. The number of Jews becoming Christians back then was probably a small percentage.

The big en-masse turning of the Jews to Jesus and the gospel of salvation will be in the middle part of the 7 years - after their thought to be messiah (the Antichrist) betrays them and the Mt. Sinai covenant by claiming to have achieved God-hood.

The two witnesses will be in Jerusalem warning them that he is not the messiah. When what the two witnesses prophesy in those days comes to pass, that will be major factor of the Jews turning to Jesus.

Revelation 11:3 really does not say what they will prophesy, only that they will testify and prophesy.

Revlation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

For some reason you didn't bother addressing what I said about which Israel that Paul said all would be saved. Can you tell me how you interpret the following passage?

Romans 9: It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

What do you think Paul meant when he said "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."? Obviously, everyone who naturally and physically descends from the nation of Israel are Israelites. So, Paul couldn't have been saying not all who are descended from national Israel are national Israel. So, what do you think he was saying? He went on to indicate that what he was saying had nothing to do with someone being a natural/physical descendant, so what do you think Paul was saying there?

 

[Douggg]

For some reason you didn't bother addressing what I said about which Israel that Paul said all would be saved. Can you tell me how you interpret the following passage?

Romans 9: It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

What do you think Paul meant when he said "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."? Obviously, everyone who naturally and physically descends from the nation of Israel are Israelites. So, Paul couldn't have been saying not all who are descended from national Israel are national Israel. So, what do you think he was saying? He went on to indicate that what he was saying had nothing to do with someone being a natural/physical descendant, so what do you think Paul was saying there?

Paul was saying that not all the Israelite's are considered the children of God. Being an Israelite by physical birth descended from Isaac does not make a person a child of God.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul was saying that not all the Israelite's are considered the children of God. Being an Israelite by physical birth descended from Isaac does not make a person a child of God.

Right, so what does it mean then when he said "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel"? He references two Israels there, so what is your understanding of that?

Surely, he was not saying not all who are descended from national Israel are national Israelites, since that would not be true. So, instead, he was saying not all national Israelites are spiritual Israelites and he went on to explain that this is because being a natural physical descendant had nothing to do with being a child of God. So, he was equating being a child of God and spiritual child of Abraham with being a spiritual Israelite and he was indicating that who or what someone descended from had nothing to do with it.

So, getting back to the original point. Of these two Israels that Paul referenced, of which one are all saved? National Israel or spiritual Israel?

 

[Douggg]

So, getting back to the original point. Of these two Israels that Paul referenced, of which one are all saved? National Israel or spiritual Israel?

Persons are not saved according to physical birth. That was the point Paul was making. Unless a person be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

Paul does not use the terms "national Israel" nor "spiritual Israel".

 

[keras]

Paul does not use the terms "national Israel" nor "spiritual Israel".

But Jesus uses the term: born into the Kingdom.... Matthew 8:12, and their fate is the be; thrown out into the dark.....

Of course, rapture believers like you don't like the truth of how the Jews will be punished and only a remnant will survive. It messes up their totally ridiculous idea of them sitting up in heaven, while the Jews go thru tribulation and eventually convert to Christianity.
That this fanciful belief is refuted by scripture in many ways and can never happen.

 

[Fisherking]

Here is my side by side table that I made comparing the verses in Revelation 11 to the verses in Revelations 12. I made the table in two parts to cover all the verses. The 7th trumpet sounds, resulting in the third woe - Satan cast down to earth having a time, times, half time left. Basically the second half of the 7 years.

Basically, nothing in either chapter is the First Half of the 70th week. Rev . 12 is all 2nd half, I mean the Jews Flee at the 1290, which comes 30 days before the 1260, but its all about the Jews/Israel being protected for 1260 days until Jesus shows up.

Rev. 11 is about the 1260 day Ministry of the Two-witnesses, so "technically" it does start 75 days before the Middle of the week 1260 event (God's Wrath falling) but that just to make sure Israel repents BEFORE God's Wrath fall. They can not pray down any plagues until the Mid Point.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Persons are not saved according to physical birth. That was the point Paul was making. Unless a person be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

Paul does not use the terms "national Israel" nor "spiritual Israel".

He said "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel". You can't say he was speaking of only one Israel there because it would turn what he said into complete nonsense. So, what do you think is the identity of the first Israel he mentioned and what do you think is the identity of the second Israel he mentioned?

In other words, when he said "not all who are descended from Israel", what is your understanding of that Israel? The physical earthly nation of Israel? Something else? And when he said "are Israel", what is your understanding of that Israel?

 

[Douggg]

Basically, nothing in either chapter is the First Half of the 70th week. Rev . 12 is all 2nd half, I mean the Jews Flee at the 1290, which comes 30 days before the 1260, but its all about the Jews/Israel being protected for 1260 days until Jesus shows up.

Rev. 11 is about the 1260 day Ministry of the Two-witnesses, so "technically" it does start 75 days before the Middle of the week 1260 event (God's Wrath falling) but that just to make sure Israel repents BEFORE God's Wrath fall. They can not pray down any plagues until the Mid Point.

On what day from day 1 is the abomination of desolation setup ?

 

[Douggg]

In other words, when he said "not all who are descended from Israel", what is your understanding of that Israel?

Paul is referring to all the blood descendants of Israel.

And when he said "are Israel", what is your understanding of that Israel?

Of the blood descendants of Israel, only the one's who believe upon Jesus are children of God.

Of the gentiles, only the one's who believe upon Jesus are children of God.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Fisherking]

On what day from day 1 is the abomination of desolation setup ?

If its set up 30 days before the mid point and the 7 years has 2520 days in it, why is it even a question?

Subtract 1290 days from 2520 days and you get the answer.

2520 - 1290 = 1230

So, on day 1230 out of a total of 2520 days comes the AoD. it happens 30 days before the exact middle of the week (1260).

 

[Douggg]

If its set up 30 days before the mid point and the 7 years has 2520 days in it, why is it even a question?

Subtract 1290 days from 2520 days and you get the answer.

2520 - 1290 = 1230

So, on day 1230 out of a total of 2520 days comes the AoD. it happens 30 days before the exact middle of the week (1260).

Why not subtract 1335 days from 2520 days to get the answer?