Revelation 11 and Revelation 12

[Douggg]

Do you believe Daniel's seventy weeks are years not days?

I think the term for weeks is "heptad" or "septets". i.e a group of 7. Timewise, 7 years.

Do you believe that the two witnesses will lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem, 3 1/2 years ? Or 3 1/2 days ? I believe 3 1/2 days.

 

[Qubit]

I think the term for weeks is "heptad" or "septets". i.e a group of 7. Timewise, 7 years.

Thanks.

The above interpretation does fit well with the overall prophecy of Daniel.

Do you believe that the two witnesses will lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem, 3 1/2 years ? Or 3 1/2 days ? I believe 3 1/2 days.

3-1/2 days is a reasonable interpretation.

Personally, I have not come to any formal conclusion. I generally keep an open mind in case I get something wrong.

There are some who believe it is 3-1/2 years...

The day-year principle was partially employed by Jews as seen in Daniel 9:24–27, Ezekiel 4:4-7

It was first used in Christian exposition in 380 AD by Ticonius, who interpreted the three and a half days of Revelation 11:9 as three and a half years, writing 'three days and a half; that is, three years and six months'.

In the 5th century Faustus of Riez gave the same interpretation of Revelation 11:9, writing 'three and a half days which correspond to three years and six months' and in c. 550 Primasius also gave the same interpretation, writing 'it is possible to understand the three days and a half as three years and six months'.

The same interpretation of Revelation 11:9 was given by later expositors like Anspert, Haymo, and Berengaudus (all of the ninth century).

Day-year principle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What are they seeing?

 

[keras]

There will be persons who become Christians here on earth after the rapture takes place.

Not according to Revelation 13:3-4 & 8.
Your 'rapture' belief forces you to contradict scripture.

Revelation 12:14 and 17, are undeniable; the Christian peoples will be on earth during the finale 3 1/2 years.

 

[keras]

Do you believe that the two witnesses will lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem, 3 1/2 years

No; it will be days.
Because it parallels Jonah 1:17 and the time Jesus spent in the tomb.

 

[Qubit]

No; it will be days.
Because it parallels Jonah 1:17 and the time Jesus spent in the tomb.

Interesting. Is there a way to fit the 1/2 day somewhere in or after the verse below?

Matthew 12:40
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

I am guessing it would belong somewhere in the first half of the fourth day, right?

 

[Douggg]

Not according to Revelation 13:3-4 & 8.
Your 'rapture' belief forces you to contradict scripture.

Revelation 12:14 and 17, are undeniable; the Christian peoples will be on earth during the finale 3 1/2 years.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The implication is that those who have their names written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world are Christian.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

That verse is referring to the Jews en masse becoming Christians in the middle part of the 7 years, due to the testimony of the two witnesses in Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:14 is referring to the Jews who flee into the mountains right away as Jesus instructed in Matthew 24:15-21.

Revelation 12:17 is referring to the Jews who do not flee quickly and their escape routes cutoff and thus become vulnerable to the persecution of Satan and the beast-king. They are the ones that Jesus rescues when He returns in Zechariah 14:

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Uzziah was king of Judah, a Jew.

In Amos 1:1 is reference to the earthquake of Uzziah's day.

Amos 1:1 The words of Amos, who was among the herdmen of Tekoa, which he saw concerning Israel in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash king of Israel, two years before the earthquake.

So, apparently there was a big earthquake in Uzziah's day.

What it boils down to is the ones in Revelation 12:10 who become Christians are the Jews. And the ones in Revelation 12:14 and Revelation 12:17 are Jews who become Christians during the middle of the 7 years influenced by the testimony of the two witnesses.

 

[keras]

Interesting. Is there a way to fit the 1/2 day somewhere in or after the verse below?

Three and a half days is 84 hours, from whenever it starts to the end of that time period.
That is why people get confused about how long Jesus was in the tomb. Start point is when He died.

 

[keras]

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The ones in red are Christians.

What???
Their names are NOT Written in the Book of Life, they are the ungodly wicked peoples. Who include the Israeli Jews.

What it boils down to is the ones in Revelation 12:10 who become Christians are the Jews. And the ones in Revelation 12:14 and Revelation 12:17 are Jews who become Christians during the middle of the 7 years influenced by the testimony of the two witnesses.

This belief is a total rejection of many Bible Prophesies. A violation of plainly stated scripture.
The Jews face punishment now and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

The entire house of cards that is the rapture to heaven theory, is false and cannot happen. We Christians must endure until the end, THEN Jesus will Return and those still faithful, will be found worthy to rise to meet Him and go into the Millennium, as His Priests and co-rulers.

 

[Douggg]

What???
Their names are NOT Written in the Book of Life, they are the ungodly wicked peoples. Who include the Israeli Jews.

You are mis-reading the verse. Everyone on earth will worship the beast, except them who's names are written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

All upon earth will worship the beast. i.e. all whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Christians will not worship the beast.

 

[Douggg]

This belief is a total rejection of many Bible Prophesies. A violation of plainly stated scripture.
The Jews face punishment now and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

A remnant if spread out over 2000 years. End times is different.... Once the fullness of the Gentile be come in , i..e. the time of the gentiles control over Jerusalem., then all Israel shall be saved. The Jews regained possession of Jerusalem in 1967.

Romans 11:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[Qubit]

@Douggg .

According to the chart in the OP, I am assuming you interpret the Woman on the Moon as Mary...

Revelation 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars."

Is this correct?

If she is Mary, then how is it that the Redeemed are considered 'her seed' in this verse?

Revelation 12:17
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Are the Redeemed the seed of Mary?

 

[Qubit]

I am going to post an alternative timeline to Revelation 12 for folks to check out.

Revelation 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

I believe the Woman represents Sarah. The Moon represents her Seed (Ovum). The Sun she is clothed with represents Abraham's Seed (Sperm). The entire scene is a picture of Isaac being conceived. The Twelve Stars represent the Twelve Tribes that will eventually come from Abraham and Sarah's Seed.

Sarah gives birth to Isaac, who begins the lineage that leads to the birth of Jesus.

Revelation 12:3-4
"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

Satan is angry that God chose Abraham and Sarah to be the ones whose seed will give rise to the Twelve Tribes and ultimately Jesus. Satan begins to send fallen angels to Earth in preparation for war. I believe Sodom and Gomorrah are connected to this event...

Jude 1:6-7
"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

The above verse clearly teaches that Sodom and Gomorrah is one of the places where Angels left their first estate. In other words, they become fallen angels. Note that Michael is at war with Satan during this time...

Jude 1:9
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

Birth of Issac

Revelation 12:5
"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

The birth of Isaac is symbolic of the birth of Jesus. Jesus mentions this here...

John 8:56
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

Next...

Revelation 12:6
"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

The Seed of Abraham and Sarah flees to the Wilderness during the Exodus. The birth of Jesus occurs 1,260 years later (day/year principle). The Seed is 'fed' or nurtured through the various men and women of the Old Testament, generation after generation...

Matthew 1:17
"So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations."

War in Heaven

Revelation 12:7
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,"

Again, this war most likely happened during Sodom and Gomorrah.

Revelation 12:9
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

A perfect fit for the Dragon cast to Earth is Pharaoh..

Ezekiel 29:3
"Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself."

Pharaoh is the King of Egypt, the first 'head' of the Dragon. He goes after Abraham and Sarah's Seed...

Revelation 12:13
"And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

As mentioned already, the Woman flees to the Wilderness of Exodus...

Revelation 12:14
"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

Abraham and Sarah's Seed is nourished in the wombs of the various women throughout the Old Testament (1,260 years). The Seed is also symbolized by the various Tabernacles and Temples.

Revelation 12:15
"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

The above verse symbolizes the Red Sea that was in the way of the Israelites.

The Red Sea is parted...

Revelation 12:16
"And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

Revelation 12:17
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Satan is angry and continues the war against Abraham and Sarah's Seed through the various Antichrists throughout the Old Testament...

1. King of Egypt
2. King of Assyria
3. King of Babylon
4. King of Medo-Persia
5. King of Greece
6. King of Rome
7. TBD

And there you have it. The rich and incredible history of the Israelites and the Old Testament is no longer marginalized and thrown into the garbage as so many Christians have done by placing Revelation 12 later in the timeline (or even future).

'Her Seed' represents Abraham's Seed, not Mary's Seed. The Redeemed are grafted into Her Seed...

Galatians 3:29
"And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The Promise is through Sarah, not Mary...

Galatians 4:26
"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Therefore, I believe Revelation 12 may be interpreted as already happened long ago.

 

[Douggg]

According to the chart in the OP, I am assuming you interpret the Woman on the Moon as Mary...

No, the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.

 

[keras]

You are mis-reading the verse. Everyone on earth will worship the beast, except them who's names are written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Your errors and mis-interpretations are legendary.
Rev 13:8, does not have the word 'except' in it. It says every one whose name is not written in the Book [of Life], will worship the beast.

I suggest you read your Bible without the blinders of your pre-conceived beliefs.

 

[keras]

No, the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.

Who; after Jesus came, now represents the Christian peoples.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Jesus is coming and His reward with Him !

Yes, and He will reward both believers and unbelievers with what He determines they deserve. The word "reward" does not always have a positive connotation.

Matthew 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There will be persons who become Christians here on earth after the rapture takes place.

Where is that taught?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Do you believe the above verse refers to the day the rapture will occur?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The ones in red are Christians.

My goodness, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. No, Doug, Christians don't and never will worship the beast. Christians are those whose names ARE written in the book of life. That verse is referring to those who worship the beast and whose names ARE NOT written in the book of life, which you highlighted in red and said are Christians. No, they clearly are not Christians.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

A remnant if spread out over 2000 years. End times is different.... Once the fullness of the Gentile be come in , i..e. the time of the gentiles control over Jerusalem., then all Israel shall be saved. The Jews regained possession of Jerusalem in 1967.

Romans 11:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Well, not all of modern day Israel was saved in 1967, so you probably need to rethink this.

You also need to rethink which Israel Paul was talking about there.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Paul indicated that the Israel of which all are children of God (all saved) has nothing to do with being a natural descendant of Israel or Abraham. That contradicts your understanding of the Israel of which all shall be saved. It is the Spiritual Israel of God of which all are and all will be saved, not national Israel.

 

[Douggg]

Who; after Jesus came, now represents the Christian peoples.

All who recognize that the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.