Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[BCP1928]

Correct - many of the brethren for decades after the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr continued to berate the early-LDS Church because of their resistance to - not only the practice of - but the very idea of plural marriage.

The whole thing sounds like a completely rational thing to me. The Saints needed population, and they needed it fast. What better way than encouraging plural marriage?

 

[Zaha Torte]

Including with the husbands of his additional wives. You're not going to get me to think Smith was some sort of marter instead of a disreputable person using religion to manipulated and gain power.

I am only concerned with the truth.

You realize that not every Sealing in the LDS faith is a marriage - correct?

Meaning - the Prophet being Sealed to another man's wife did not mean that he became married to that woman.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Correct - many of the brethren for decades after the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr continued to berate the early-LDS Church because of their resistance to - not only the practice of - but the very idea of plural marriage.

So, help me out here. According to the following LDS document (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132), did Joseph Smith Jr. advocate for "plural marriage" or admonish his parishioners against it?

Doctrine and Covenants 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant and the principle of plural marriage. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, evidence indicates...

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes, he already had one wife.

Yeah, but if he wasn't having sex with the neighbor's widow, I'm not sure how much polygamy is actually involved there. We're not talking about something like King Solomon in your neighbor's case.

 

[Zaha Torte]

The whole thing sounds like a completely rational thing to me. The Saints needed population, and they needed it fast. What better way than encouraging plural marriage?

Perhaps that was one of the reasons.

The Book of Mormon prophet Jacob claimed that the default was one man and one woman in marriage - unless the Lord commanded that His people "raise up seed unto Him."

And in the early-LDS Church it seemed less about population - and more about specific men and women reproducing.

 

[Zaha Torte]

So, help me out here. According to the following LDS document (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132), did Joseph Smith Jr. advocate for "plural marriage" or admonish his parishioners against it?

Doctrine and Covenants 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant and the principle of plural marriage. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, evidence indicates...

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

The Prophet Joseph Smith Jr taught in favor of the practice - believing that it was a commandment of God - even if he personally did not like it and struggled against it for years.

These verses were the Lord explaining how a man and a woman could be justified in this practice - most likely because the members were either confused by or were not in favor of it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The Prophet Joseph Smith Jr taught in favor of the practice - believing that it was a commandment of God - even if he personally did not like it and struggled against it for years.

So, where do I need to read to see that he felt "unsettled" about it?

These verses were the Lord explaining how a man and a woman could be justified in this practice - most likely because the members were either confused by or were not in favor of it.

The Lord explained this? Seriously? And how do we test for that historically speaking? (And yeeeeeessssss! You're speaking to me, an applier of Literary Criticism to the Bible and of Critical Thinking to .................. everything else.)

 

[Zaha Torte]

Yeah, but if he wasn't having sex with the neighbor's widow, I'm not sure how much polygamy is actually involved there. We're not talking about something like King Solomon in your neighbor's case.

In the Law of Moses, a brother would marry his brother's widow if he happened to die without having children by her in order to "raise up seed" unto his dead brother.

In those cases - the marriage was for the purpose of procreation - which is why God struck down Onan (even though that took place before the Law was given).

So, this principle did not originate with the Law - so it is possible that some form of it may still be in effect?

I had never considered that before. Thank goodness my brother already has kids.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In the Law of Moses, a brother would marry his brother's widow if he happened to die without having children by her in order to "raise up seed" unto his dead brother.

I already know this.

In those cases - the marriage was for the purpose of procreation - which is why God struck down Onan (even though that took place before the Law was given).

Yeah.

So, this principle did not originate with the Law - so it is possible that some form of it may still be in effect?

In reference to what since the context here was in my response to BCP1928 rather than to you.

I had never considered that before. Thank goodness my brother already has kids.

Whatever. I'll stick with scholarly Biblical Exegetes and Hermeneuticists rather than going with Mormon by-product.

 

[Zaha Torte]

So, where do I need to read to see that he felt "unsettled" about it?

Here is a source for that and other things related to the Prophet and plural marriage,

The Beginnings of Polygamy - Joseph Smith's Polygamy

In this essay, we attempt to piece together as accurate as possible of a picture of why and how polygamy was established all those years ago in Nauvoo.

josephsmithspolygamy.org

The Lord explained this? Seriously? And how do we test for that historically speaking? (And yeeeeeessssss! You're speaking to me, an applier of Literary Criticism to the Bible and of Critical Thinking to .................. everything else.)

The Doctrine and Covenants was a work of revelations received by the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr.

Many of these were written as if the Lord Himself were speaking because the Prophet believed that He was.

That chapter and the verses relating to plural marriage were written as a revelation received directly from the Lord.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Surely you know better than to assume anything.

Oh, I most definitely know that.

The momrons teachings are fatal to the souls trapped/ tricked. Like all false teachers, the followers don't realize the danger they are in, nor the danger to their own little children , and others.
The false gospels are extremely widespread today, and have been always.
But people taught by a false gospel, believe false gospels are okay - live and let live so to speak.

Like letting carnivorous mammals feast on the flesh of one's own family and friends !!

I think you've misinterpreted the intent of communication in the post of mine you were reading. I was being a bit facetious to my interlocutor.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I already know this.

Yeah.

In reference to what since the context here was in my response to BCP1928 rather than to you.


Whatever. I'll stick with scholarly Biblical Exegetes and Hermeneuticists rather than going with Mormon by-product.

My comment was in reference to what BCP1928 had said about his neighbor.

Why can't we just be two people talking about the Bible?

Do you hate me because I am a "Mormon"?

And please refer to me as a Latter-day Saint.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Here is a source for that and other things related to the Prophet and plural marriage,

The Beginnings of Polygamy - Joseph Smith's Polygamy

In this essay, we attempt to piece together as accurate as possible of a picture of why and how polygamy was established all those years ago in Nauvoo.

josephsmithspolygamy.org

The Doctrine and Covenants was a work of revelations received by the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr.

Many of these were written as if the Lord Himself were speaking because the Prophet believed that He was.

That chapter and the verses relating to plural marriage were written as a revelation received directly from the Lord.

Well, call me an un-believer, then, 'cuz I'm not feeling the epistemic or historical weight of it ...

So, back to the original Sodom and Gomorrah motif of the OP.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My comment was in reference to what BCP1928 had said about his neighbor.

Why can't we just be two people talking about the Bible?

Do you hate me because I am a "Mormon"?

And please refer to me as a Latter-day Saint.

I didn't say I hate you. Did I say I hate you? No. I'm an Existentialist and a Critical Realist, not an Evangelical. I have no reason to hate you.

However, I do have reason to disagree with those who proffer unjustified claims. Forgive me----It's just a part of my academic training.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Well, call me an un-believer, then, 'cuz I'm not feeling the epistemic or historical weight of it ...

So, back to the original Sodom and Gomorrah motif of the OP.

I wasn't trying to convince you or anyone. Just answering questions.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I didn't say I hate you. Did I say I hate you? No. I'm an Existentialist and a Critical Realist, not an Evangelical. I have no reason to hate you.

However, I do have reason to disagree with those who proffer unjustified claims. Forgive me----It's just a part of my academic training.

You were being uncharacteristically rude. It soured our otherwise pleasant conversation.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You were being uncharacteristically rude. It soured our otherwise pleasant conversation.

You haven't been here on CF long enough to know me. Others here know very well that I can sometimes be curt or sarcastic.

I mean, if you want to 'be' Mormon, have at it! That's your choice and your call of the heart. I'd prefer to see it be more of a call of the Mind, but I realize that people are people and follow whatever comes their way. Besides, Life and social Reality doesn't exist for my sake.

So, as far as LDS goes, what do you want me to know about it over and above what my other sources have informed me regarding it?

 

[Zaha Torte]

You haven't been here on CF long enough to know me. Others here know very well that I can sometimes be curt or sarcastic.

I mean, if you want to 'be' Mormon, have at it! That's your choice and your call of the heart. I'd prefer to see it be more of a call of the Mind, but I realize that people are people and follow whatever comes their way. Besides, Life and social Reality doesn't exist for my sake.

So, as far as LDS goes, what do you want me to know about it over and above what my other sources have informed about regarding it?

I am a Latter-day Saint - not a "Mormon".

You are free to act however you want - I just don't like being referred to as a "by-product".

You are now aware that I don't like being referred to as either a "Mormon" or a "by-product" and that I thought you were very pleasant up until the end when you decided to be rude.

That is all I would like you to know about those things.

As to what I want you to know about LDS doctrine and history - the truth about them.

I like clearing up misconceptions about my faith that everyone seems to have because it may be the most misunderstood and misrepresented Christian faith out there.

Feel free to DM me if you have any further questions about LDS doctrine and history.

God bless.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am a Latter-day Saint - not a "Mormon".

You are free to act however you want - I just don't like being referred to as a "by-product".

You are now aware that I don't like being referred to as either a "Mormon" or a "by-product" and that I thought you were very pleasant up until the end when you decided to be rude.

That is all I would like you to know about those things.

As to what I want you to know about LDS doctrine and history - the truth about them.

I like clearing up misconceptions about my faith that everyone seems to have because it may be the most misunderstood and misrepresented Christian faith out there.

Feel free to DM me if you have any further questions about LDS doctrine and history.

God bless.

Oh, good grief! Seriously? Analytically speaking, a rose by any other name is still just a rose.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/17/us/mormon-church-name-trnd/index.html

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am a Latter-day Saint - not a "Mormon".

You are free to act however you want - I just don't like being referred to as a "by-product".

You are now aware that I don't like being referred to as either a "Mormon" or a "by-product" and that I thought you were very pleasant up until the end when you decided to be rude.

That is all I would like you to know about those things.

As to what I want you to know about LDS doctrine and history - the truth about them.

I like clearing up misconceptions about my faith that everyone seems to have because it may be the most misunderstood and misrepresented Christian faith out there.

Feel free to DM me if you have any further questions about LDS doctrine and history.

God bless.

But at the end of the day, you can be Zaha Torte and I'll be Ghost Rider. It's ok. We all need a little fiction in our lives ...