Election's Historicity (Doctrinal Counter Perspective)

[Grip Docility]

My problem with it is that it would be unjust for the sinner's debt to be paid twice, once by Christ on the cross and again by himself in Hades.

Hades was a jail break. Christ descended into Hell to free slaves of the Devils work, that responded AND break open the Bosom of Abraham.

The spiritually dead (unregenerate drowned) can't reach up from the water.
Throwing the drowned a life preserver is futile.

Jesus regenerated the entire world, through his death. All can turn to the serpent on the bronze pole. They choose not to.

They are already drowned, spiritually dead, only a spiritual resurrection (regeneration, Jn 3:3-5) will bring them to spiritual life.

If you refer to the reprobate.... we were all reprobate before we turned to Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

By dying for all of creation, God, reconciled ALL to God. It's God's Blood. Only 1 death needed....

The context shows that creation there does not refer to human beings.

 

[Clare73]

To be more direct... to suggest that God didn't die for all, would actually be the statement that would "Re-Crucify" Him.

Doesn't address the injustice of the sinner's debt to God being paid twice.

 

[Clare73]

Hades was a jail break. Christ descended into Hell to free slaves of the Devils work, that responded AND break open the Bosom of Abraham.

Jesus regenerated the entire world, through his death. All can turn to the serpent on the bronze pole. They choose not to.

Not according to the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:7-8) who is as unaccountable as the wind.

If you refer to the reprobate.... we were all reprobate before we turned to Jesus.

Yes, all are reprobate who are not born again.

 

[Grip Docility]

Doesn't address the injustice of the sinner's debt to God being paid twice.

The only thing that could be making you believe that God suffered twice is extra biblical doctrine. I mean this respectfully.

Jesus crushed the Devils Authority on Calvary, because the Devil Falsely condemned God to the Cross, because he didn’t know that it was actually God. By the very Book of the Law that Satan exacted so many deaths by, he condemned the Ratifier of the covenant that he had thought was for his empowerment. By that very Law, Satan condemned himself and lost his authority over death. He still has the power… BUT Jesus got the Keys to death.

In Spirit form, Jesus Rent the Curtain! Who do you think did that?

Then… having rightfully obtained the Keys to Hades… He gleefully kicked in the doors to “hell” to metaphorically speak! He freed all that He could, that would simply Believe.

He didn’t suffer in hades… HE dominated in Hades… while the Devil was realizing that he made a big oopsie. God played fair and the Devil lost.

That is the picture scripture gives.

 

[Hammster]

John 12:32 As for Me, if I am lifted up[a] from the earth I will draw all people to Myself.”

Greek word 3956 Strongs "pas: all, every" (Usage: all, the whole, every kind of)

Based on the context of that verse, could He have meant all types of people?

 

[Grip Docility]

Not according to the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:7-8) who is as unaccountable as the wind.

Yes, all are reprobate who are not born again.

We, you and I were once not born again. Compassion is Gods call! We are Christs hands! We are that which He now Loves the reprobates through, so that the Holy Spirit might shine through us… and they, too, turn to the bronze serpent on the bronze pole. It’s not a requirement, but an unknown blessing and honor.

 

[Grip Docility]

Based on the context of that verse, could He have meant all types of people?

The disobedient… 1 Peter 3 references those disobedient in the time of Noah. Peter was excited to write about His Lords glorious Jail break.

 

[Hammster]

The disobedient… 1 Peter 3 references those disobedient in the time of Noah. Peter was excited to write about His Lords glorious Jail break.

John 12:32 As for Me, if I am lifted up[a] from the earth I will draw all people to Myself.”

Greek word 3956 Strongs "pas: all, every" (Usage: all, the whole, every kind of)

Based on the context of that verse, could He have meant all types of people?

 

[Clare73]

The only thing that could be making you believe that God suffered twice is extra bad blockage doctrine. I mean this respectfully.

You are misreading. . .try it again.

Jesus crushed the Devils Authority on Calvary, because the Devil Falsely condemned God to the Cross, because he didn’t know that it was actually God. By the very Book of the Law that Satan exacted so many deaths by, he condemned the Ratifier of the covenant that he had thought was for his empowerment. By that very Law, Satan condemned himself and lost his authority over death. He still has the power… BUT Jesus got the Keys to death.
In Spirit form, Jesus Rent the Curtain! Who do you think did that?
Then… having rightfully obtained the Keys to Hades… He gleefully kicked in the doors to “hell” to metaphorically speak! He freed all that He could, that would simply Believe.

But where do we find this rationale in apostolic teaching, the only doctrine authoritative to the Church?

 

[Clare73]

We, you and I were once not born again. Compassion is Gods call! We are Christs hands! We are that which He now Loves the reprobates through, so that the Holy Spirit might shine through us… and they, too, turn to the bronze serpent on the bronze pole. It’s not a requirement, but an unknown blessing and honor.

God's love and compassion are always according to his justice.

 

[Grip Docility]

You are misreading. . .try it again.

But where do we find this rationale in apostolic teaching, the only doctrine authoritative to the Church?

The Bible and Jesus are our teacher.

Moses… Highest OT Voice… “Take My Name off your book if you don’t save them”

Paul… Highest NT non God Voice in scripture… “I wish that I was cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of My Christ Rejecting Brethren”

Peter, important apostle… “For He desires none to be lost and all to be Saved”

The Highest Theologian in history… JESUS… Mercy, Not Saccrifice.

He literally died at the hands of His creations… when Fire should have come from His mouth, Lightning from His Eyes and a storm of death from his hands … to all of us reprobates!

And… John… God is Love.

There’s so much more! It’s all in there! When pondering a matter in reading and prayer… I default to Grace. That’s what Jesus taught me to do, Paul, Moses, John, Peter… etc…

That’s my sources of inspiration… on the matter.

Sorry, on my phone… quoting from heart and limited to see formatting.

 

[Grip Docility]

Based on the context of that verse, could He have meant all types of people?

When paired with Colossians, it’s impossible to mean otherwise. And… He does draw all people, per that verse in John. In John 3 the Bronze pole with the serpent is used to show that it is there for ALL to see. Only those that respond will be healed.

Jesus Work on the Cross is the Fathers call, through His Son to All that live… to come to Him, that they may be healed, saved, born again. The Holy Spirit cannot begin work until our mustard seed, widows mite is given… IMO

Sorry… pulled over car to answer.. on phone. Difficult to format.

 

[Hammster]

When paired with Colossians, it’s impossible to mean otherwise. And… He does draw all people, per that verse in John. In John 3 the Bronze pole with the serpent is used to show that it is there for ALL to see. Only those that respond will be healed.

Jesus Work on the Cross is the Fathers call, through His Son to All that live… to come to Him, that they may be healed, saved, born again. The Holy Spirit cannot begin work until our mustard seed, widows mite is given… IMO

Sorry… pulled over car to answer.. on phone. Difficult to format.

Since you say it can’t mean any different, there’s no point in continuing. There’s absolutely no reason (when looking at the context)besides your tradition to think it must mean what you say it means.

 

[Clare73]

The Bible and Jesus are our teacher.

Moses… Highest OT Voice… “Take My Name off your book if you don’t save them”

Paul… Highest NT non God Voice in scripture… “I wish that I was cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of My Christ Rejecting Brethren”

Peter, important apostle… “For He desires none to be lost and all to be Saved”

Peter, important apostle... "To God's elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father('s plan). . .(1 Pe 1:1-2).

 

[Grip Docility]

God's love and compassion are always according to his justice.

I would say that that’s backwards.

His Justice is ALWAYS rooted in His compassionate Love.

 

[Grip Docility]

Peter, important apostle... "To God's elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father('s plan). . .(1 Pe 1:1-2).

Who did Paul say that Little Rock was to be ministering to? Galatians 2:7-8

 

[Clare73]

I would say that that’s backwards.

His Justice is ALWAYS rooted in His compassionate Love.

Perhaps a little more Biblical work on God's justice and love is in order. . .

Justice is God's governing attribute. . .he is not God if he is not first of all just.
All is in accordance with his justice, including his mercy.

 

[Clare73]

Who did Paul say that Little Rock was to be ministering to? Galatians 2:7-8

Peter said he was ministering to the Jewish and Gentile (1:10) Christians "chosen for obedience to Jesus Christ" scattered throughout Asia Minor (1 Pe 1:1-2).

 

[Grip Docility]

Peter said he was ministering to the Jewish and Gentile (1:10) Christians "chosen for obedience to Jesus Christ" scattered throughout Asia Minor (1 Pe 1:1-2).

Paul was to the Gentiles and Peter was to the Circumcision, per Paul. Remember when Paul and Peter got into a tiff at Antioch? Paul won. Paul had rank. I'll quote Galatians 2:6-7 now that I am home.

Galatians 2:7-8 On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter was for the circumcised, 8 since the One at work in Peter for an apostleship to the circumcised was also at work in me for the Gentiles.​

Paul iterates Peter specifically to The Jews... Twice.... and again... Peter refers specifically to the Diaspora (Jews)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,​

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To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:​

The exact word that Peter uses "Exiles" is the Greek word for the Jewish Diaspora

Spoiler

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◄ διασπορᾶς ►

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Englishman's Concordance διασπορᾶς (diasporas) — 1 Occurrence 1 Peter 1:1 N-GFS GRK: ἐκλεκτοῖς παρεπιδήμοις διασπορᾶς Πόντου Γαλατίας NAS: To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, KJV: to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, INT: to [the] elect exiles of [the] dispersion of Pontus of Galatia

Peter directly calls out the Diaspora (Dispersed Jews) and Calls them Elect, just like Paul leads up to in Romans 11.

Romans 11:28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of the patriarchs