Understanding the Trinity

[PloverWing]

Add in the fact that the Trinity doesn't seem to get a mention in the Bible and I'm left with the impression that the Trinity evolved as a means of filling, what is/was perceived as, a theological hole related to the Son/Father issue (the problem of Himself sacrificing Himself to Himself allowing Himself to forgive sin)

I agree that the early theologians were wrestling with the ideas of Atonement, Incarnation, and Trinity together, that these ideas are interwoven. All three ideas are present in an early form in the New Testament, but the evolution of all three ideas continued beyond the first century.

I will note, though, that the view of Atonement that you describe -- God "sacrificing Himself to Himself allowing Himself to forgive sin" -- is every bit as problematic as you think it is. It is not the only view of Atonement found in Christian theology, and (to the best of my knowledge) it was not the majority view in the first few centuries of the church.

Gustav Aulén's book Christus Victor outlines some of the early theories of the Atonement, if you want a little light reading.

I don't see this as a reason to question the concept of your God but I do wonder whether Christian theology isn't often a convenient post hoc invention. You could argue for instance that Christians 'experience' God in three ways because they have been told that God has three natures.

Ah, now, the problem of how a person in the 21st century verifies the experiences of early Christians 2000 years ago -- that's a problem with no easy solutions. I am choosing to trust the witness of 1st- and 2nd-century Christians, and I admit that that trust could be misplaced.

For those earliest Christians, though, the experience came first, and the theories and explanations came afterwards. At least, that's what I'm seeing as I read their writings.

 

[Offline4Better.]

Understanding the Trinity

As an atheist one of the many things I find confusing about Christianity is the concept of the Trinity;

God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.​

Part of the problem is understanding the concept of having three ‘God’ entities while at the same time describing them as a single entity.

As an outsider it also seems to me that each of the components of the Trinity would have a specific function or purpose. Is this the case? If not, why have three components?

The most confusing component of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit. Although it’s part of the Trinity it appears to be the least mentioned and the vaguest (to me) part of the Trinity. Although I can more or less understand the God-the-Father/God-the-Son concepts, I have trouble understanding the idea of the Holy Spirit, what it is and where it fits in.



A Request

After more than a decade on CF I’ve found that Christians have a habit of using impenetrable Christian jargon when trying to explain Christian concepts. As a non-Christian much of this jargon can be difficult to follow.

How you respond is up to you however sticking to plain English would help.



OB

Well, here is an 8 minute video that can explain it in simple English, better than I could.

 

[Occams Barber]

Well, here is an 8 minute video that can explain it in simple English, better than I could.

As a Christian you are obliged to pretend you understand this stuff.

As a non-Christian I can be honest and tell you it left me more confused.

OB

 

[Offline4Better.]

As a Christian you are obliged to pretend you understand this stuff.

As a non-Christian I can be honest and tell you it left me more confused.

OB

Hey, that is alright. We have different believes. As a Christian, I don't understand this stuff, but have faith in it. But as Christians, we are taught to also study things, so I see your point in us trying to understand everything.

Psalm 111:2 "Great are the works of the Lord, studied by all who delight in them." This verse expresses admiration for God's great creation and works. Scientists engage with these works through their research and discovery. Faith and science complement each other, as both can acknowledge God's presence and power in the natural world. Scientific inquiry can be driven by a belief in a deeper meaning to the universe and a recognition of God's involvement. The verse affirms that studying God's works deepens our appreciation for and connection to the Lord.

Two of my favorite Catholic scientists: Georges Lemâitre (priest who theorized Big Bang theory in 1920s, showing that universe had a point in time where it was created). Gregor Mendel was a German priest that developed the study of genetics during the 1850s while growing pea plants.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This sounds suspiciously like a convenient Get Out of Jail Free card. It seems like half of the responses to this thread excuse the absence of an explanation for the Trinity because "it's a mystery".

You think my philosophically, historically and scientifically informed response above is a "Get Out of Jail Free card"? .... how? It's not as if this retort you're making addresses anything I said.

Y'know, you asked for a short order, kindergarten level answer, so I attempted to give you the sort of answer you asked for. And now, NOW, you're griping about what was all too briefly served up. So, Little Johnny, while we're at it, and before your gaslight runs out of fuel so you can see enough by which to eat your Malt-O-Meal, do you need me to adjust your bib and high-chair for you?

It's like saying

"I don't understand it therefore it must be true"

OB

Where in my previous post did I say "... it's true." I said nothing about epistemology. Maybe you've misinterpreted what I've said and assumed that I'm attempting to give you the same form of answer that evangelical Christians will give you?

 

[tampasteve]

This sounds suspiciously like a convenient Get Out of Jail Free card. It seems like half of the responses to this thread excuse the absence of an explanation for the Trinity because "it's a mystery".

It's like saying

"I don't understand it therefore it must be true"

OB

I mean, sometimes I suppose. Oppositely one could word that as "Just because I can't understand it does not mean that it is not true."

Personally I can't understand a lot of physics or higher level math - it just is not something that my brain is able to wrap around, but that does not make the things taught in those subjects untrue.

The reality is that the Trinity is hard, and the explanations created for it are going to contain "Christian jargon" because a lot of that "jargon" was created and defined in order to try and explain the more complex parts of the faith in an exact way. One can really get into it and investigate what the definitions and explanations are for the words that are used to explain things like the Trinity mean, and that may be what you need to do. The Early Church Fathers went to great lengths to accurately and correctly define these doctrines and dogmas. A lot of the deep explanations just can't be distilled down to a lower level.

Honestly, I feel you are asking for something that is nearly impossible to give.

 

[TheCabinetGuy]

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all separate, yet divine. Yet, it isn't 3 Gods, but one. And to further complicate things, the Spirit is seven-in-one.
God reveals himself as the Father, through his word (which became flesh as the Son), and by his Spirit.
Arianism denies the preincarnate deity of Christ, yet Christ said, "I am the first and the last" and "Now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."
Oneness and Modalism denies the separateness of the 3, yet Christ said, "No one knows the day or hour... not even the Son, but only the Father" and "The Father is greater than I." The Son is fully divine yet fully human, and part of being human is not knowing everything. Though Christ is seated at the right hand of the Ancient of Days, and all authority in heaven and earth has been given to the Son, the all-knowing attribute is exclusive to the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit has also been called in multiple passages the "Spirit of Jesus." So these 3 are perfectly one.
Some hold to the view that the Spirit is not a person, but simply God's power (Binitarianism). But if that were so, then how does the Spirit have the ability to speak and counsel us? Dare I suggest that the Spirit is a... spirit?

Another great passage to ponder is Zechariah 12:10. God is speaking, and he is referring to the pierced one as both "me" and "him." Keep in mind that this is from the Old Testament folks.

Therefore, the Trinitarian view is the best way to describe the Godhead. All other "isms" just don't work.

Hope that helps...

 

[DJWhalen]

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all separate, yet divine. Yet, it isn't 3 Gods, but one. And to further complicate things, the Spirit is seven-in-one.
God reveals himself as the Father, through his word (which became flesh as the Son), and by his Spirit.
Arianism denies the preincarnate deity of Christ, yet Christ said, "I am the first and the last" and "Now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."
Oneness and Modalism denies the separateness of the 3, yet Christ said, "No one knows the day or hour... not even the Son, but only the Father" and "The Father is greater than I." The Son is fully divine yet fully human, and part of being human is not knowing everything. Though Christ is seated at the right hand of the Ancient of Days, and all authority in heaven and earth has been given to the Son, the all-knowing attribute is exclusive to the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit has also been called in multiple passages the "Spirit of Jesus." So these 3 are perfectly one.
Some hold to the view that the Spirit is not a person, but simply God's power (Binitarianism). But if that were so, then how does the Spirit have the ability to speak and counsel us? Dare I suggest that the Spirit is a... spirit?

Another great passage to ponder is Zechariah 12:10. God is speaking, and he is referring to the pierced one as both "me" and "him." Keep in mind that this is from the Old Testament folks.

Therefore, the Trinitarian view is the best way to describe the Godhead. All other "isms" just don't work.

Hope that helps...

I am confused by the seven-in-one. I don't wish to argue (I am looking for answers).

 

[Occams Barber]

Honestly, I feel you are asking for something that is nearly impossible to give.

I started this thread with what I thought were relatively straightforward questions about the Trinity. It's something I've never understood, and I was curious. My questions were genuine.

Since the Trinity is a basic tenet of Christianity it never occurred to me that it was effectively inexplicable or, at least, inexplicable to the majority (?) of Christians.

OB

 

[TheCabinetGuy]

I am confused by the seven-in-one. I don't wish to argue (I am looking for answers).

In the book of Revelation, the Spirit is revealed to be sevenfold. This is symbolized by the 7 branch menorah in the Tabernacle/Temple. The meaning of the 7 Spirits is found in Isaiah 11:2

 

[tampasteve]

I started this thread with what I thought were relatively straightforward questions about the Trinity. It's something I've never understood, and I was curious. My questions were genuine.

I sincerely believe that your questions were genuine, I did not mean to imply that they were not, if it seemed that way I apologize. The issue is that the Trinity just isn't something that is easily explained in common language.

Since the Trinity is a basic tenet of Christianity it never occurred to me that it was effectively inexplicable or, at least, inexplicable to the majority (?) of Christians.

OB

Yeah, it is why many Christians file it under that the way that the Trinity works or exists is a "mystery" to them. Personally I don't make a huge effort to actually understand it. I believe Christianity to be the true faith for other reasons and then work back to find that the idea of a Trinity makes sense biblically and historically based on the way that the Faith has played out and based on the observations and thought of people much more steeped and versed in theology than I am. I know that is an appeal to a higher authority argument, but I appeal to it the same way I would appeal to a higher authority in other subjects that I don't really understand or don't put in the effort to truly learn, other people have made that effort already - again such as physics.

Actually understanding the Trinity is not part of my daily religious life.

 

[DJWhalen]

In the book of Revelation, the Spirit is revealed to be sevenfold. This is symbolized by the 7 branch menorah in the Tabernacle/Temple. The meaning of the 7 Spirits is found in Isaiah 11
View attachment 347308

Ok, I got it. Thank you!

 

[Occams Barber]

I sincerely believe that your questions were genuine, I did not mean to imply that they were not, if it seemed that way I apologize. The issue is that the Trinity just isn't something that is easily explained in common language.

Yeah, it is why many Christians file it under that the way that the Trinity works or exists is a "mystery" to them. Personally I don't make a huge effort to actually understand it. I believe Christianity to be the true faith for other reasons and then work back to find that the idea of a Trinity makes sense biblically and historically based on the way that the Faith has played out and based on the observations and thought of people much more steeped and versed in theology than I am. I know that is an appeal to a higher authority argument, but I appeal to it the same way I would appeal to a higher authority in other subjects that I don't really understand or don't put in the effort to truly learn, other people have made that effort already - again such as physics.

Actually understanding the Trinity is not part of my daily religious life.

There's a qualitative difference between physics and maths (and biology and chemistry etc.) and the Trinity. For a start no one is claiming they are three persons in one or attributing them with supernatural powers. While you (and I) may not understand science beyond the basics we know enough to be aware there is a rational explanation for sciencey concepts, and that science produces empirical results.

Putting that aside - thank you for making the effort to explain the unexplainable. This thread appears to have upset/irritated a few posters so I will allow it to die quietly.

I had considered a separate post on the subject of understanding the point of the crucifixion - another concept I've never understood. I've decided to avoid the topic given the reaction this thread has produced. I suspect that any questioning around the crucifixion will result in me being metaphorically hung, drawn and quartered.

OB

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There's a qualitative difference between physics and maths (and biology and chemistry etc.) and the Trinity. For a start no one is claiming they are three persons in one or attributing them with supernatural powers. While you (and I) may not understand science beyond the basics we know enough to be aware there is a rational explanation for sciencey concepts, and that science produces empirical results.

Putting that aside - thank you for making the effort to explain the unexplainable. This thread appears to have upset/irritated a few posters so I will allow it to die quietly.

I had considered a separate post on the subject of understanding the point of the crucifixion - another concept I've never understood. I've decided to avoid the topic given the reaction this thread has produced. I suspect that any questioning around the crucifixion will result in me being metaphorically hung, drawn and quartered.

OB

Oh, puh-leeeeeeease, Bob! It's not your question that is irritating .............................................. it's your hubris!

And yeah. You've been on CF for a long time and I've seen the kinds of retorts you typically give. Forgive me if I don't take your inquiry here in this section of CF as genuine.

 

[d taylor]

-

​

So there is an un-created God, who has always existed as three and an explanation is wanted as to why this is.

Now that is funny for 1 .A person thinking they will get the answer to this, 2. A person thinking they can explain this, especially to a person who does not even believe in God.

 

[setst777]

Understanding the Trinity

As an atheist one of the many things I find confusing about Christianity is the concept of the Trinity;

God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.​

To us, the Christian Church, there is only one God the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6), but God's being includes His Word and His Spirit, both of whom are identified as personages in the NT, and who both proceed forth from God's being (John 8:42; John 15:26) to manifest God and to make happen all things from the Father's command in creating, sustaining, saving, ruling over, and judging all things (1 Corinthians 8:6).

God would not be God, and nothing would exist, without His Word (the Spirit always working with the Word: Genesis 1:1-27) by/through whom all things came to be (Psalms 33:6) that are from/of the Father's command (Psalms 33:6; Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1-3; 1 Corinthians 8:6); so that, all things are from God and through God and for God (Romans 11:35-36).

Part of the problem is understanding the concept of having three ‘God’ entities while at the same time describing them as a single entity.

There is one God the Father, and within God's being exists His Word and His Spirit who both are equal in essence with the Father, but are both subordinate to the Father positionally. The Word and Spirit belong to God the Father's nature of being God; and so, God cannot be less or greater than who He is, which must include His Word and Spirit. Therefore, the Word and Spirit are just as much God (by nature) as the Father - they are one. . .

And so The Father, His Word, and His Spirit, cannot, by any means, be separated from each other and still be "God" by nature, for God manifests himself as God, and does all things, by means of His Word and Spirit.

In like manner; the sun in the sky cannot be separated from its light and heat and still be a sun by nature - all three must exist together to be a sun. The light and heat exist within the sun and proceed forth from the sun to give life on earth, just as the Word and Spirit proceed forth from the Father to make all things happen that are from the Father's will.

As an outsider it also seems to me that each of the components of the Trinity would have a specific function or purpose. Is this the case? If not, why have three components?

From the Father (His command) are all things by His Word and Spirit (Psalms 33:6).

The function of the Word

The Word is The Image of the invisible God and the Brightness of God's glory (Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3); manifesting all of God bodily (Colossians 1:19; Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:6); therefore, when anyone saw the Son they were seeing the Father (John 14:9). All the words Lord Jesus spoke are actually the words of the Father who sent him; for Lord Jesus (the incarnate Word) is God manifesting himself making all things happen that are from the Fathers command; yet, the Word is also a separate personage or consciousness from the Father.

The function of the Spirit

The Spirit is the "indwelling" of God to give life with the Word, and to do all things with the Word, filling all things. The Spirit indwells believers (John 7:37-39; Ephesians 1:13) to give them life (Romans 8:10-11) as the believers live and walk by the leading of the Spirit who indwells them (Romans 8:3-4; Romans 8:12-14; Galatians 5:16; Galatians 6:7-9); for not all Christians will continue to live by the Spirit indwelling them; in that, many will grieve (Ephesians 4:17-32), quench (1 Thessalonians 5:19), insult/enrage (Hebrews 10:24-31), reject (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8), lie to (Acts 5:3), and test (Acts 5:9) the indwelling Spirit.

Christians who reject, insult, and enrage the indwelling Spirit will suffer eternal punishment if not confessed and repented of (Hebrews 10:24-31; Revelation 3:1-6; Romans 11:19-22).

The Christian lives and walks by the Spirit as the Christian remains faithful to walk in the light, which is to follow Lord Jesus (John 8:12) into a sanctified life of righteousness and love (Colossians 3:1-17; 1 John 1:5-9; 1 John 2:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:1-8).

 

[Aviel]

A Request

After more than a decade on CF I’ve found that Christians have a habit of using impenetrable Christian jargon when trying to explain Christian concepts. As a non-Christian much of this jargon can be difficult to follow.

How you respond is up to you however sticking to plain English would help.

Man is a Tri-Part being.

1. Body
2. Soul
3. Spirit

You live in a body
You have a soul
You are a Spirit.. (Its your spirit that is born again, not your body or your soul realm.)

So, you are the Spirit. You live in a body, and have a mind.

The Soul realm, is not the Spirit.
The Soul realm is :

1. MInd
2. Will
3. Emotions.


So, why is Man a "Tri-Part"?

Its because of this...

"Let US....make MAN.... in OUR Image".

See those 2?

That is God the Father and the Pre-incarnate (not virgin born yet).. WORD of God. Or as John 1 teaches.. "the WORD was God".
Thats Jesus who is the "Word made Flesh".... (Virgin Born)

So, when we see that 2 made man in "our" image.. then what is the third?

Its the Holy Spirit who is the literal breath of Life that caused Adam to become alive.

So, that is Father and Word , as the "let US, make MAN".. and then how/

The Holy Spirit, is the author of the literal creation.

Thats 3.

Now, if you are confused about the ""WORD who was God" who "became Flesh">...

How is HE also GOD?

Read John 1:10, as it says that JESUS made the World., And He did, as God "spoke" and Jesus pre-incarnate is the WORD of God....

That is the "Let US (God and Word (Pre-incarnate Jesus) make MAN..

How?

The Holy Spirit is the generator of the literal creation, exactly as the HS created JESUS in a virgin's womg.

That's 3, as ONE,

That is a Tri-part or Triune, = God Head.

And another verse says that """" Jesus is the fullness of the GOD-HEAD, in a Body.""""

 

[Joseph G]

There's a qualitative difference between physics and maths (and biology and chemistry etc.) and the Trinity. For a start no one is claiming they are three persons in one or attributing them with supernatural powers. While you (and I) may not understand science beyond the basics we know enough to be aware there is a rational explanation for sciencey concepts, and that science produces empirical results.

Putting that aside - thank you for making the effort to explain the unexplainable. This thread appears to have upset/irritated a few posters so I will allow it to die quietly.

I had considered a separate post on the subject of understanding the point of the crucifixion - another concept I've never understood. I've decided to avoid the topic given the reaction this thread has produced. I suspect that any questioning around the crucifixion will result in me being metaphorically hung, drawn and quartered.

OB

Hey Occams. Came across this short video by Billy Graham and thought of this tread. Though certainly not a thorough answer to your question, it does perfectly answer why the Christian appreciates the Person of the Holy Spirit as being distinct from the God/man Jesus Christ as far as enabling fellowship with God.

God bless.

 

[dcalling]

After many years with the same question i realized that it is not something we can understand. It is something we observe. I.e. how come light is both a practical and wave? It is something we observed but we might never fully understand.

 

[Joseph G]

Hey Occams, me again. I came across yet another vid of Billy Graham where he goes in depth about the Person of the Holy Spirit, His unique functions, and how He interacts with the Father and the Son. It's audio and a few minutes long, but I'm in hopes that you'll find it a profitable investment of your time. God bless!