Yet Again, At Planet Fitness...

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RileyG

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Wow, no.
Are trans people coming to your door to try to talk you into “becoming trans”?
No, they’re trying to live a life but have been prevented in the past because “normal” people thought people with their “condition” was icky.


Fare-thee-well
Their condition is a mental illness. If they want to live their life as a delusion, that’s their choice. You cannot force everyone to accept it.
 
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RileyG

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How does science “do more research” while not providing the good/services that would coincidentally be the exact same as the “research”?
Those services have been proven to be harmful. Even after transitioning many of them are still deeply unhappy and suicidal.
 
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RileyG

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Let’s carve out an exception for people who are aren’t expected to live that long into adulthood, if any of them are transgender the “research”/“treatments” would be allowed for them, seeings as they won’t be, (probably), when adulthood dawns for their peers. (If their lives are sort, why make them (more) miserable)?
So make them more miserable in their short lives? No.
 
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rjs330

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Better we should keep 99.4% of children ignorant of the 0.6% of their peers who won’t know that there are other people who’ve ridden this “ride” before and the kids, when of proper age to decide, maybe they’d like to have all the information about their condition easily available (like @ school)
Real harm has been done to kids. Are the schools teaching that? Are the schools teaching them about the facts there is no reliable evidence that this actually helps them? Are they being taught all the detrimental effects of transitioning? Are they being taught,

  • While a considerable amount of research has been published in this field, systematic evidence reviews demonstrated the poor quality of the published studies, meaning there is not a reliable evidence base upon which to make clinical decisions, or for children and their families to make informed choices.
  • The strengths and weaknesses of the evidence base on the care of children and young people are often misrepresented and overstated, both in scientific publications and social debate.
  • The rationale for early puberty suppression remains unclear, with weak evidence regarding the impact on gender dysphoria, mental or psychosocial health. The effect on cognitive and psychosexual development remains unknown.
  • The use of masculinising / feminising hormones in those under the age of 18 also presents many unknowns, despite their longstanding use in the adult transgender population. The lack of long-term follow-up data on those commencing treatment at an earlier age means we have inadequate information about the range of outcomes for this group.
  • Clinicians are unable to determine with any certainty which children and young people will go on to have an enduring trans identity.
  • For most young people, a medical pathway will not be the best way to manage their gender-related distress. For those young people for whom a medical pathway is clinically indicated, it is not enough to provide this without also addressing wider mental health and/or psychosocially challenging problems.
I could go on with the detrimental affects and other issues. Would you be for reaching that as well?
Have you ever fleshed out this phrase?
Zero point-six of the population has some level of gender-fluidity, chances are they are going to eventually have to decide in what sorts of ways they agree on what is the best life that they can have, given the freedom and information to do so.
That’s only an “ideology” if “breathing“ is a staying-alive “ideology”.
Breathing is a biological necessity. Gender fluidity is not. People choose all kinds of lifestyles, belief systems etc. Those things are often ideological in nature. And we make choices based upon those things. They are free to believe how they wish and be fluid if they wish. No one is trying to stop them from doing so.
We humans are a very odd bunch. We produce people with all kinds of oddities such as those who think they are some kind of animal, like to dress up as a cat and preen themselves and use a litter box. Or they get all.kinds of surgeries to transform themselves into a lizard or tiger. Some men wear diapers and suck on pacifiers. They all are deciding what kind of life they live. But none of those things determine what they actually are.
They aren't really an animal. They aren't really a baby. And if they are gender fluid they really aren't a man one day and a woman the next. But if they want to pretend to be, then fine, be that. Just don't expect the rest of us to also believe the same things you do.

Just like we shouldn't demand or expect you to believe that Christ died, rose again and that belief in him gives you eternal life. And you do not wish for teachers to teach that in schools.
 
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rjs330

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Great let’s fund lotsa “research” so that we can move forward as a society and intentionally unmarginalize some people whose predecessors were largely ignored by older generations.
Unless we want them to stay marginalized?
That's being done in other countries. It should be in done in the US as well. It would of course require the closing of all our gender clinics and end the medicalization of that sailed ship you talked about. No more walking into a clinic and getting blockers and hormones.

The research isn't being done to unmarginalize people. Did you think it was? The research is being done to find out the best way to treat people who claim to be trans. Are they really trans? Do they truly have dysphoria and if so, what's the best way to discover that and treat the mental disorder.

It's not being done to make it so men can go into women's spaces or participate in women's sports or demand that we use certain pronouns. Did you think it was?
 
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rjs330

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Let’s carve out an exception for people who are aren’t expected to live that long into adulthood, if any of them are transgender the “research”/“treatments” would be allowed for them, seeings as they won’t be, (probably), when adulthood dawns for their peers. (If their lives are sort, why make them (more) miserable)?
You mean those that are terminally I'll? That's the first time I've heard that one.
 
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rjs330

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You sure you want to go down this “road”?
Absolutely. We in the religious community know our faith is based on faith and belief. We have personal.experiences with God and Christ, but we've never actually seen God or Christ with our own eyes. We have scripture that tell us what Christ said and tells us what God wants us to know. But we know it's based on faith. I didn't see Christ raise from the dead. I haven't seen heaven. Even the scripture tells us we belive by faith. And unless you want us to be able to teach that to your kids then you should probably not want the faith based gender ideology taught to them either.
 
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rjs330

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Are trans people coming to your door to try to talk you into “becoming trans”?
No, they’re trying to live a life but have been prevented in the past because “normal” people thought people with their “condition” was icky.
In essence yes they are. Social media, the media, and education is doing exactly that.

Some are trying to just live their life, but others are not. Others are working very hard to convince your children they might be trans and if the kid has some unsterotypical characteristics for their sex then they are working diligently to convince them they are trans.

And you are not a dumb person so you are well aware of all the other ways they are trying to force people to behave in certain ways, say certain things and allow harm to be done to women.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Not even remotely.

It's pretty similar.

Yeah. And...?

Which isn't really considered evidence.

At least not by those of us who understand evidence.


Nope....but you're free to believe whatever you wish to.

It's not what I believe, it's what it is.

You're a part of a dismal new faith.

Which has nothing to do with gender.

Oh ok....sure. These magical feelings come from where then? The soul?

Just that you're not interested in any other point of view than the one you've already decided on.

Again, evidence.
 
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Pommer

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Absolutely. We in the religious community know our faith is based on faith and belief. We have personal.experiences with God and Christ, but we've never actually seen God or Christ with our own eyes. We have scripture that tell us what Christ said and tells us what God wants us to know. But we know it's based on faith. I didn't see Christ raise from the dead. I haven't seen heaven. Even the scripture tells us we belive by faith. And unless you want us to be able to teach that to your kids then you should probably not want the faith based gender ideology taught to them either.
But faiths are expressly covered in the Constitution/Bill of Rights, believers are protected from overreach by government. You are arguing that transfolk aren’t so covered.
 
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BPPLEE

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But faiths are expressly covered in the Constitution/Bill of Rights, believers are protected from overreach by government. You are arguing that transfolk aren’t so covered.
If they are then their ideology can’t be taught legally in public schools
 
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Pommer

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If they are then their ideology can’t be taught legally in public schools
But if they’re not, then government can “help” their “cause” by crafting policy that expressly protects them from folk who have an ideological bent on keeping them marginalized and sequestered from the rest of our society.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Which has nothing to do with gender.

I've tried to explain this to you before, you refuse to even try to understand. I'm not gonna try again.
If we as a society started calling canines “cats” and felines “dogs”, there would be some people on this forum that would climb on top of their houses and scream at the top of their lungs that its wrong and they’re not going to accept it. And then there’s the normal people who would say “oh, this is how we’re using those words now? I guess I’ll have to get used to it.”

This whole “Gender HAS to mean the thing I want it to mean, even if other people aren’t using the word in the way I want them to!” is childish and idiotic.
 
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A2SG

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It's pretty similar.
It really isn't.

Which isn't really considered evidence.
An anecdote isn't considered evidence for a broader issue, but it can be evidence for that one, singular instance. Which is all it needs to be.

Me saying I'm hungry is evidence that I, personally and individually, am hungry. It isn't evidence for any broader case of hunger beyond me.

At least not by those of us who understand evidence.
If I say I'm hungry, what evidence do you need to support, or to refute, thst claim?

It's not what I believe, it's what it is.
Only to you.

You're a part of a dismal new faith.
Nope.

Oh ok....sure. These magical feelings come from where then? The soul?
If you like. A more naturalistic minded person might say the mind, or the brain, though. But either way, it's subjective, and cannot be empirically determined by any objective testing method.

Again, evevidence.
For something that is subjective in nature, that's all the evidence that's possible.

-- A2SG, no other kind is even needed....
 
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A2SG

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If we as a society started calling canines “cats” and felines “dogs”, there would be some people on this forum that would climb on top of their houses and scream at the top of their lungs that its wrong and they’re not going to accept it. And then there’s the normal people who would say “oh, this is how we’re using those words now? I guess I’ll have to get used to it.”
Words can change meanings over time, based on usage. The word "gay," for example, doesn't mean the same thing today it did a hundred years ago.

This whole “Gender HAS to mean the thing I want it to mean, even if other people aren’t using the word in the way I want them to!” is childish and idiotic.
The term "gender" has come to mean something different from the term "sex" as we've learned, over time, that the two aren't exactly the same thing.

Usage changes the meaning of the word. That's how language works. It adapts and evolves.

-- A2SG, that's what distinguishes English from a dead language like Latin, for example...
 
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Chesterton

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Words can change meanings over time, based on usage. The word "gay," for example, doesn't mean the same thing today it did a hundred years ago.


The term "gender" has come to mean something different from the term "sex" as we've learned, over time, that the two aren't exactly the same thing.

Usage changes the meaning of the word. That's how language works. It adapts and evolves.

-- A2SG, that's what distinguishes English from a dead language like Latin, for example...
When words change meaning organically over time, that's fine. When words are astroturfed for political purposes, that's not fine. Suggessted reading: George Orwell's Politics And The English Language.
 
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RileyG

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If we as a society started calling canines “cats” and felines “dogs”, there would be some people on this forum that would climb on top of their houses and scream at the top of their lungs that its wrong and they’re not going to accept it. And then there’s the normal people who would say “oh, this is how we’re using those words now? I guess I’ll have to get used to it.”

This whole “Gender HAS to mean the thing I want it to mean, even if other people aren’t using the word in the way I want them to!” is childish and idiotic.
Words have meanings. That’s why there are dictionaries. Tell an English professor it’s childish and idiotic that someone can define any words they want it to be and see what their response is.
 
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RileyG

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