Isaiah 65:17-19 relates to the eternal state not some supposed future millennium

[sovereigngrace]

2 Peter 3


Peter is even talking about the Day of the Lord regarding the context of this equation of a day being like a thousand years.

What you have to understand is that, the point is the way God sees time and the way we experience it are 2 very different things.
If the Day of the Lord lasts over 24 hours is it no longer the Day of the Lord? No, because to God a day and 1000 years, no difference. it's a finite period of time, it's insignificant to God.
so to God, whether 24 hours, or 1000 years, it's a Day.
We might see it as 1000 years long.

Peter is directly responding to the wicked in this narrative. That is the context here. He is directly responding to the derision of "the last days scoffers." His whole writing here is a solemn warning to them of the folly of their mocking. Like Christ and the other New Testament writers, Peter points these fools to Noah day where God rescued His people in total and suddenly before He destroyed the wicked in total and suddenly.

What is the derision of the wicked? This: "Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

Peter responds directly: "beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise." He first addresses the apparent delay by telling them that time is nothing with God - "be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." He then reminds them that "the Lord is not slack concerning his promise." He is indeed faithful. He keeps His Word.

“The Lord is not slack concerning” what “promise”?

The “promise” under discussion in the narrative – “the promise of his coming.” God will assuredly keep His Word

 

[Jamdoc]

Peter is directly responding to the wicked in this narrative. That is the context here. He is directly responding to the derision of "the last days scoffers." His whole writing here is a solemn warning to them of the folly of their mocking. Like Christ and the other New Testament writers, Peter points these fools to Noah day where God rescued His people in total and suddenly before He destroyed the wicked in total and suddenly.

What is the derision of the wicked? This: "Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

Peter responds directly: "beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise." He first addresses the apparent delay by telling them that time is nothing with God - "be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." He then reminds them that "the Lord is not slack concerning his promise." He is indeed faithful. He keeps His Word.

“The Lord is not slack concerning” what “promise”?

The “promise” under discussion in the narrative – “the promise of his coming.” God will assuredly keep His Word

He's also talking about the Day of the Lord, and making that reference.
and yet you choose not to see it, you want to force a 24 hour day, where the bible keeps telling you over and over it's longer.
You want to brush aside all the scripture describing things happening over periods of time longer than 24 hour days and say "that's allegory, but I"m gonna be hyperliteral about 1 24 hour day"

 

[keras]

I"m gonna be hyperliteral about 1 24 hour day"

Yes; the Day of the Lords fiery wrath is a literal one Day. One revolution of the earth.
Proved by Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:6, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8 and Isaiah 47:9

It has to be over quickly, or nothing would survive,

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes; the Day of the Lords fiery wrath is a literal one Day. One revolution of the earth.
Proved by Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:6, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8 and Isaiah 47:9

It has to be over quickly, or nothing would survive,

there's a lot of things that happen during the Day of the Lord. Armageddon has years of cleanup after it according to Ezekiel 39.
Jesus being on the Earth, is the Day of the Lord.

 

[keras]

there's a lot of things that happen during the Day of the Lord. Armageddon has years of cleanup after it according to Ezekiel 39.
Jesus being on the Earth, is the Day of the Lord.

So the 5 verses I posted are meaningless to you? They all refer to the terrible Day the Lord will send fire from the sun. Psalms 11:4-6, Rev 6:12-17
Armageddon is the Great Day of Almighty God. Rev 16:14

 

[Jamdoc]

So the 5 verses I posted are meaningless to you? They all refer to the terrible Day the Lord will send fire from the sun. Psalms 11:4-6, Rev 6:12-17
Armageddon is the Great Day of Almighty God. Rev 16:14

It's all the Day of the Lord, not multiple separate 24 hour things
but Jesus coming down from heaven, and final judgement at the end of it.
Time passes during that period, and is described as 1000 years.

 

[keras]

It's all the Day of the Lord, not multiple separate 24 hour things

All those verses refer to the one event; the sudden and shocking literal Day the Lord will destroy His enemies and change the world, allowing the rest of what is prophesied from Revelation 7 to 19:11, to take place.

but Jesus coming down from heaven, and final judgement at the end of it.

Then Jesus comes down from heaven and the final Judgment comes a thousand years later. Rev 20

 

[Jamdoc]

All those verses refer to the one event; the sudden and shocking literal Day the Lord will destroy His enemies and change the world, allowing the rest of what is prophesied from Revelation 7 to 19:11, to take place.


Then Jesus comes down from heaven and the final Judgment comes a thousand years later. Rev 20

so you agree on there's a day of the Lord that starts with Jesus' return and ends with final judgement in 1000 years (so.. "the Day of the Lord") yet you still force a 24 hour period separately.
even though that too is called "the Day of the Lord"

if you let "the Day of the Lord" be the 1000 years, then you have just reconciled Revelation 20 to all other "Day of the Lord" scripture.

but if you keep it separate, you're left with only a single place in the bible that talks about a 1000 year period while trying to force multiple separate "the Day of the Lord" 24 hour periods.
where if you see the Day of the Lord as 1000 years, it fits all of them, and John isn't just pulling this 1000 year period out of thin air with no other scripture to back it up.
You don't HAVE to try to force Isaiah 65 to be about the Millennium then.
because every time "the Day of the Lord" is mentioned... there's your 1000 years.

 

[keras]

so you agree on there's a day of the Lord that starts with Jesus' return and ends with final judgement in 1000 years (so.. "the Day of the Lord") yet you still force a 24 hour period separately.
even though that too is called "the Day of the Lord"

if you let "the Day of the Lord" be the 1000 years, then you have just reconciled Revelation 20 to all other "Day of the Lord" scripture.

but if you keep it separate, you're left with only a single place in the bible that talks about a 1000 year period while trying to force multiple separate "the Day of the Lord" 24 hour periods.
where if you see the Day of the Lord as 1000 years, it fits all of them, and John isn't just pulling this 1000 year period out of thin air with no other scripture to back it up.
You don't HAVE to try to force Isaiah 65 to be about the Millennium then.
because every time "the Day of the Lord" is mentioned... there's your 1000 years.

Your confusion is very apparent.
I never said the DoL was the Millennium.

All the mentions of the Day of the Lord, are for one literal earth day. The Lords Day of wrath, the Great Day of Almighty God, the Day Jesus was acclaimed King and the Day of Judgment for everyone, after the Millennium.

 

[Qubit]

Where is a "millennial kingdom" mentioned here? You have to add into unto the biblical texts.

Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

לֹא־יִֽהְיֶ֨ה מִשָּׁ֜ם עֹ֗וד ע֤וּל יָמִים֙ וְזָקֵ֔ן אֲשֶׁ֥ר
Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not be hence more an infant [of] days, an old man after

לֹֽא־יְמַלֵּ֖א אֶת־יָמָ֑יו כִּ֣י הַנַּ֗עַר בֶּן־מֵאָ֤ה שָׁנָה֙ יָמ֔וּת
Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old an hundred years die

What is this telling us?

The exact same thing, only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.

This passage is actually saying the opposite to what many think. What this is saying is: there will be no more aging, curse or death on the new earth. Every glorified saints will have come to full maturity in Christ with their new perfect eternal bodies. It is the next line of Isaiah 65:20 that has confused many, because the translators have not interpreted it in a literal word-for-word sense. It is not saying there will be more babies, death and old men. It is saying the opposite to what they are alleging. It is saying that there will be no more aging: children getting old, old people and people dying! It is describing eternity to an Old Testament audience in terms they can grasp.

The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown. God is saying that the eternal state will actually be free of death for young and old alike. This passage is telling us that there will be no more death on the new earth! The Hebrew word Lo' (Strong’s 3808) means “no” or “not.” The word is a simple negation. The word is found twice in this much-debated new heavens and new earth verse.

Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth? Also, should the death be related to the “child” in the second phrase or the “sinner” in the third phrase? What is more, in what way should it read? I must admit, if we are to read it in its most natural way it fits perfectly with the context. So why change it? I believe it should be applied to the “child” as it should agree with the first phrase that is simply a reinforcement of the same truth. It then fits perfectly with the whole overall teaching of the prophet on the perfection and bliss of the eternal state.

No (Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,
No (Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.

This is Old Testament verbiage that describes eternity to the Old Testament listener. It is telling us: no one is going to age! This relates to the new heaven and new earth not some supposed future millennium – that will never happen.

The original Hebrew does not give us any reason to attribute death to the “child” in this second line. In fact, it does not fit the whole context which is evidently speaking of the removal of aging and death on the new earth. Interpreting it as we have, seems to (1) match the original, (2) make sense to its context, and (3) taps into the thrust of what the prophet was trying to relay. We need to remind ourselves that the whole idea here is describing the incredible eternal deliverance from the curse of corruption and the joy that “the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” on the “new earth.”

The post above is brilliant. I have been trying to teach this to people for years now. Thanks!

 

[sovereigngrace]

He's also talking about the Day of the Lord, and making that reference.
and yet you choose not to see it, you want to force a 24 hour day, where the bible keeps telling you over and over it's longer.
You want to brush aside all the scripture describing things happening over periods of time longer than 24 hour days and say "that's allegory, but I"m gonna be hyperliteral about 1 24 hour day"

Peter is rebuking the delusional thinking of a supposed delay to Christ's return, not some supposed future millennium as you imagine.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The post above is brilliant. I have been trying to teach this to people for years now. Thanks!

Good! Thanks so much. Please share any thoughts you or private message me.

 

[Jamdoc]

Peter is talking about delusion of the supposed delay in Christ's return, not some supposed future millennium as you imagine.

Peter is also talking about the difference in how we perceive time vs how the Lord perceives time. For us, many people think nothing is going to happen because it's been so long, but for God, it's like a day has gone by, that's all,
I'm saying don't force 24 hours when "the Day of the Lord" is talked about, because where God is concerned, whether it's 24 hours or 1000 years does not matter, it is 1 day to HIM.
WE will see that time differently and experience it differently.

Isaiah 34 God talks about bringing His sword down from heaven and slaughtering Idumea, Isaiah 63 has Him coming back from the direction of Edom. Zechariah 9 also has Him seen above the people and then go south on whirlwinds (to do that slaughter)

The Old Testament has the Day of the Lord involve God coming from heaven and going on a war campaign.
Not an instant nuke, but a war campaign. It actually takes time.
"Day of vengeance, year of recompense" as Isaiah 34 puts it.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Peter is also talking about the difference in how we perceive time vs how the Lord perceives time. For us, many people think nothing is going to happen because it's been so long, but for God, it's like a day has gone by, that's all,
I'm saying don't force 24 hours when "the Day of the Lord" is talked about, because where God is concerned, whether it's 24 hours or 1000 years does not matter, it is 1 day to HIM.
WE will see that time differently and experience it differently.

Isaiah 34 God talks about bringing His sword down from heaven and slaughtering Idumea, Isaiah 63 has Him coming back from the direction of Edom. Zechariah 9 also has Him seen above the people and then go south on whirlwinds (to do that slaughter)

The Old Testament has the Day of the Lord involve God coming from heaven and going on a war campaign.
Not an instant nuke, but a war campaign. It actually takes time.
"Day of vengeance, year of recompense" as Isaiah 34 puts it.

Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

The current universe and stars are all going to be changed when He comes.

The earth will be made new. It will be renewed. Creation will be delivered from its fallen state. The topography of the physical earth and starry host will be regenerated by fire.

There will be no survivors! This is total destruction – for who and what is left behind.

Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. Premillennialism has to often change the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words in order to get that doctrine to fit. Premil explains away the literal meaning of text after text and replaces with its alternative definition. This is not the way that Scripture should be approached. This is classic eisegesis. There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture, ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

 

[Jamdoc]

Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

The current universe and stars are all going to be changed when He comes.

The earth will be made new. It will be renewed. Creation will be delivered from its fallen state. The topography of the physical earth and starry host will be regenerated by fire.

There will be no survivors! This is total destruction – for who and what is left behind.

Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. Premillennialism has to often change the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words in order to get that doctrine to fit. Premil explains away the literal meaning of text after text and replaces with its alternative definition. This is not the way that Scripture should be approached. This is classic eisegesis. There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture, ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

But read the passage, it's a war path, not a blink of the eye instant transformation.
to the LORD it will be a day
to us, time will pass by, because we experience time differently than an eternal being.

Think about when you were a child.
1 year seemed like a very long time to you, but as an adult, especially the older you get, 1 year goes by very fast and you don't really think about the time passing by.
for the older being, it's like that just happened yesterday.
for the younger? that seemed like forever ago.

all that complete destruction happens at the end of the Day of the Lord, after a final act of rebellion.
but there's a beginning of the day of the Lord, and an entire day as God experiences it in between.
For us? the time will be reckoned a lot longer.

 

[sovereigngrace]

But read the passage, it's a war path, not a blink of the eye instant transformation.
to the LORD it will be a day
to us, time will pass by, because we experience time differently than an eternal being.

Think about when you were a child.
1 year seemed like a very long time to you, but as an adult, especially the older you get, 1 year goes by very fast and you don't really think about the time passing by.
for the older being, it's like that just happened yesterday.
for the younger? that seemed like forever ago.

all that complete destruction happens at the end of the Day of the Lord, after a final act of rebellion.
but there's a beginning of the day of the Lord, and an entire day as God experiences it in between.
For us? the time will be reckoned a lot longer.

War precedes total destruction. We find that throughout the Word. There are no survivors.

 

[Jamdoc]

War precedes total destruction. We find that throughout the Word. There are no survivors.

There's a war, and there's a cleanup period after it.

 

[sovereigngrace]

There's a war, and there's a cleanup period after it.

Where?

 

[Jamdoc]

Where?

Ezekiel 39

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.

Ezekiel 39 describes Armageddon, and the supper of the Great God from Revelation 19, and how God's name will not be profaned anymore (if you believe that Gog/Magog is a separate conflict in which God says His name will no longer be profaned and then Antichrist after who profanes God's name...)
it also describes years of cleanup after.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Ezekiel 39


Ezekiel 39 describes Armageddon, and the supper of the Great God from Revelation 19, and how God's name will not be profaned anymore (if you believe that Gog/Magog is a separate conflict in which God says His name will no longer be profaned and then Antichrist after who profanes God's name...)
it also describes years of cleanup after.

You are manipulating Scripture to support your beliefs. John is using the ancient literal detail of Ezekiel 39 as symbolism to impress end-time truth, as in 500 Old Testament references to literal historic events that he spiritualizes.