Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

[Samson2021]

1 Peter 1:18 AMP For you know that you were not redeemed from your useless way of life INHERITED from your FOREFATHERS
with perishable things like silver and gold...............

Like I said 4 pages ago it is the FATHER of the child that passes the curse of the carnal mind to the child. As God was the Father of Jesus
He did not have a carnal mind to pass to His offspring thus Jesus was born without one. Mary was not even in the picture!

 

[concretecamper]

Mary was not even in the picture!

She is the one on our left, kneeling.

 

[Samson2021]

Not even in the picture as far as a sinful nature being inherited!
Look it up in the emphasized version it uses the word PATERNALLY handed down.

Good effort at humor by you though

 

[concretecamper]

"O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee"

 

[Samson2021]

"O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee"

Sorry, but the Bible I ascribe to says "If ye shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God hath
raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved."

Can't find a single mention of Mary or the Catholic faith there, just faith in God and His Son!!

 

[concretecamper]

Sorry, but the Bible I ascribe to says "If ye shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God hath
raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved."

Can't find a single mention of Mary or the Catholic faith there, just faith in God and His Son!!

"Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ."

 

[JulieB67]

What you have done is add additional information in order to confuse the context.

We can certainly take in Christ's entire ministry when talking about context. Both times his mother was brought up to him, he made sure he pointed out, one that whomever hears the word of God and does it is blessed and two whomever does the will of God (virtually the same things) is his family. He never raised her above anyone else that would hear the word of God and obeys it. And again, the early church never did as well.

couldn't help but notice that you give no indication which true church you are supposedly affiliated with.

I stated more than once that the true church is the many membered body that holds to the teachings and traditions that Christ and his apostles/disciples taught. It's not a building, it's not an organization. Church can even be in someone's home, etc. We saw that in the NT.

But we cannot add to what they've taught. We are told to hold onto their teachings. And we are told to study to show ourselves approved. So we won't be ashamed. You're telling us the exact oppostite. You're are putting church before the word of God even though the churches teachings do not line up with that Word. Excuse being we'll we are the "true church" so anything can be added and we have to believe it. That's putting your trust into man over God. Even teaching that it's the church that has to decide membership and that could take years when it's the Lord that adds to the church, something that was done daily by the thousands early on. Again, I'm glad God is the heart knower. He decides who's a member or not, not man.

 

[Samson2021]

We can certainly take in Christ's entire ministry when talking about context. Both times his mother was brought up to him, he made sure he pointed out, one that whomever hears the word of God and does it is blessed and two whomever does the will of God (virtually the same things) is his family. He never raised her above anyone else that would hear the word of God and obeys it. And again, the early church never did as well.


I stated more than once that the true church is the many membered body that holds to the teachings and traditions that Christ and his apostles/disciples taught. It's not a building, it's not an organization. Church can even be in someone's home, etc. We saw that in the NT.

But we cannot add to what they've taught. We are told to hold onto their teachings. And we are told to study to show ourselves approved. So we won't be ashamed. You're telling us the exact oppostite. You're are putting church before the word of God even though the churches teachings do not line up with that Word. Excuse being we'll we are the "true church" so anything can be added and we have to believe it. That's putting your trust into man over God. Even teaching that it's the church that has to decide membership and that could take years when it's the Lord that adds to the church, something that was done daily by the thousands early on. Again, I'm glad God is the heart knower. He decides who's a member or not, not man.

If I may go a bit further the Church is the ELECT the Ekklesia, Even that word has not the original meaning anymore. And to add to that
they whom have the Spirit of God, Holy Ghost baptism, are the true Church. Many believe they adhere to the proper doctrines and beliefs but are still short of the Spirit, and without the Spirit ye are NONE OF HIS.

Going to church or adhering to the teachings of some organization has nothing to do with it.

Ye are saved by grace. PERIOD.

 

[BobRyan]

JulieB67 said:

The verses I posted add context

I'm not convinced you know what context is. Going to a different account of the Gospel story, written by a different author, in a different setting, relating a different event does not provide "context."
It's additional information about a different context.

Not necessarily. Exegesis requires not only taking in the local context but also taking in the wider scope for the same subject.

Context: the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea.

And they can include what other Bible writers have said regarding that same topic.

What you have done is add additional information in order to confuse the context.

If the additional information is in the form of sacred scripture speaking to the same topic - it is necessary.

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 11:27 "And it came to pass, as He spake these things, and certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto Him, "Blessed is the womb that bare Thee, and the paps which Thou hast sucked."

Luke 11:28 "But He said, "Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

NASB - Luke 11:27-28
27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

Jesus points to the fact that the spiritual blessing for those who hear and obey the Word of God - is much higher than biological parentage blessing.

So He is not negating it -- he is pointing to the one of much greater value.

I agree, and in Luke 11 that point is made in reference to His mother.

Luke 11 "on the contrary" is his response to the "Blessed be Mary" sort of statement made in vs 27.

So yes "it is in reference to the blessing being said for His Mother" -- and his response is of the form "on the contrary"

He does not say "on the contrary blessed is SHE WHO was immaculately conceived, heard the Word of God and observed it". There is no way to turn the text that way. Rather it is "on the contrary blessed are THOSE who"

 

[concretecamper]

"Jesus is not denying the woman's statement, but adding to it."

Luke 11:28 Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, | Christ's Words

christswords.com

 

[BeyondET]

And what is true of Christ is that He was incarnated -- not procreated. Which is true of Christ alone - not any other human.

Actually both, of coarse incarnation but as well the DNA of man. Physically He was no different than any other human.

 

[RileyG]

Mary was FULL OF GRACE from HER conception. She never sinned.

 

[One God and Father of All]

Man, in his very nature is sinful.
Jesus was 100% man.
Therefore Jesus’ nature was sinful.

 

[JoeT]

Man, in his very nature is sinful.
Jesus was 100% man.
Therefore Jesus’ nature was sinful.

There is an alternative to this syllogism:

Man is created good [Cf. Genesis 1:31]
Mary was protected from sin giving birth to God/man without original sin.[Cf. Luke 1:28-35]
]
Jesus Christ is sinless, therefore a worthy atonement for the sins of man.

Sin nature doesn't exist, if it does you have a pernicious God, creating you as sin then finding you culpable.

JoeT

 

[BobRyan]

Man, in his very nature is sinful.
Jesus was 100% man.
Therefore Jesus’ nature was sinful.

Jesus' Father was not human.
All humans that have been born -- have a human father
Jesus was not 100% just like anyone else.

 

[BobRyan]

Mary was FULL OF GRACE from HER conception. She never sinned.

1. Stephen was not only "full of grace" -- He was "full of grace AND POWER" -- but that did not make him "born sinless"
2. The Bible never says anything about Mary's birth or anything special about her mother conceiving her.
3. If Mary could have been born sinless even though her mother was sinful - the Mary could also give birth to a sinless Christ without having to first be sinless.

Acts 6:8 Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people. NASB

 

[BobRyan]

Actually both, of coarse incarnation but as well the DNA of man. Physically He was no different than any other human.

Well we don't have a copy of His DNA but we do know that from a DNA/Biology POV - His Father was God.

 

[JoeT]

Sadly - the "immaculate conception" is not a term that refers to Mary conceiving Christ. It is a term that refers to the mother of Mary giving birth to Mary in such a way that unlike all other procreated humans - Mary alone - was born without sin.

Stephen "being full of grace"

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

Does not mean Stephen's mother conceived him in such a way that he too was born as a sinless being - without a sinful nature.



So was Stephen

Do you not see the connection between original justice, justification and the grace of justification Mary received?

JoeT

 

[Samson2021]

Jesus' Father was not human.
All humans that have been born -- have a human father
Jesus was not 100% just like anyone else.

I agree with that position almost 100% Psa 51:5 For I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
Jesus was 100% a human MAN, just no carnal mind until Gethsemane.
1 Co 15:21 "For since by man(Adam) came death, by man(Jesus) came also the resurrection of the dead."
Both men were made/born outside the carnal mind. Where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded. Level playing field.

If that was a passing of the carnal mind from Father to child then we see that clearly in humans.
If it was a passing from mother to child then that would have applied to Jesus, but as He was sinless, it has to be a passing
from Father to child.
God does not have a carnal mind at odds with Himself, so neither does His child Jesus. That was one thing that He was born
without that was different from the rest of mankind. Except Adam initially.
However, in the garden of Gethsemane we can see that He partook of the carnal nature/mind of man in that when He had
previously rebuked Peter for not wanting Him to go to the cross and die, He himself was now praying the Father to remove that cup.
The sin of the world had been placed upon Him and the carnal nature as well.
He took both to His cross and killed them.

It was in that days period of time that He experienced what we all were born with, for it behooved Him to be made like unto His
brethren in ALL things. And in the end He was. Initially no, for He would have been a sinner from the moment of conception.