Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

[BobRyan]

I see you accept extra-biblical authority. It is a start.

I accept that the first century church was circulating all 27 books of the NT prior to the close of the first century and they did not wait for 3 or 4 centuries or even 1000 years to pass to get those books sent out.

 

[concretecamper]

I accept that the first century church was circulating all 27 books of the NT prior to the close of the first century

and there were many other books read at the Divine Liturgy on the first few centuries, such as "The Shepard of Hermas" which @JulieB67 ignored.

and they did not wait for 3 or 4 centuries or even a 1000 years to pass to get those books sent out.

it took less than 2

 

[JulieB67]

, such as "The Shepard of Hermas" which @JulieB67

You've ignored many things in this thread which is about Mary btw. Your claim is that if you accept that the CC put together the bible, you have to accept everything they've said. That's a huge reach from accepting what the early churches taught and accepting everything the CC taught past that, etc. The CC does exactly the opposite of what is put forth in the Word that they helped put the books together. That's the irony. They don't even believe you can "boldy" go the throne once the veil was rent from top to bottom. That's the entire reason Christ was sacrificed, so that anyone can enter the holy of holies through Christ alone. That's the very definiton of being a Christian. Why on earth would a church leave that teaching?

I asked why did the early church not raise her up? And you ignored that. Why did Peter not talk about her with Cornelius for example? Why didn't Stephen or Paul if she has such an important role beyond giving birth to the Savior?
You should be asking yourself these questions when being "taught" certain doctrines about her to see if what the church teaches lines up with the Word, not what man says that has nothing to do with what the early churches taught.

 

[FenderTL5]

The simple truth is she was blessed to have given birth to our Savior but..

That's not what the scripture says. When someone postulated that in Holy Scripture, they were corrected.
She is blessed because she heard the Word of God and obeyed it, which is in Holy Scripture.

 

[Divide]

The Catholic church calls that "immaculate conception" when they claim God's power does that for Mary's mother... as if God can do that with Mary's mother but can't do it with Mary herself. I fail to see the logic in that since God apparently did it for Mary without needing Mary's mother to have that happen.

That does sound wrong about an immaculate conception. And we all know that we get the sin nature at birth, right? So Mary did or did not have the sin nature?

Once conceived it was Mary's body which nourished Jesus until He was born. So why didn't Jesus get the sin nature from her?

 

[Divide]

I accept that the first century church was circulating all 27 books of the NT prior to the close of the first century and they did not wait for 3 or 4 centuries or even 000 years to pass to get those books sent out.

They were behind schedule because printers hadn't been invented yet? It all had to be hand written, every copy.

 

[JulieB67]

She is blessed because she heard the Word of God and obeyed it,

Luke 11:27 "And it came to pass, as He spake these things, and certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto Him, "Blessed is the womb that bare Thee, and the paps which Thou hast sucked."

Luke 11:28 "But He said, "Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

It doesn't mean that Mary wasn't blessed and honored to have given birth to the Savior but Christ is pointing out anyone that hears the word of God and keeps it is blessed. He's putting her in the same place as everyone else that does the will of God rather than agreeing with the woman.

Which coincides with these verses-

Matthew 12:47 "Then one said unto Him, Behold, "Thy mother and Thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with Thee." "

Matthew 12:48 "But He answered and said unto him that told Him, "Who is My mother? and who are My brethren?"

Matthew 12:49 "And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, "Behold My mother and My brethren!

Matthew 12:50 "For whosoever shall do the will of My Father Which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother."

Again, she was blessed and found favor with God meaning she was a righeous woman. She was chosen to give birth to our Savior because of that. But Christ states in these verses anyone that does the will of the Father has the same standing as her. He can't be any more clear in these verses.

 

[FenderTL5]

Luke 11:27 "And it came to pass, as He spake these things, and certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto Him, "Blessed is the womb that bare Thee, and the paps which Thou hast sucked."

Luke 11:28 "But He said, "Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

It doesn't mean that Mary wasn't blessed and honored to have given birth to the Savior but Christ

true enough

is pointing out anyone that hears the word of God and keeps it is blessed.

no argument

He's putting her in the same place as everyone else..

everyone else huh, everyone else that all generations call blessed?
This is where you differ from the understanding of all ancient and traditional Christianity, He was not diminishing His mother, He is correcting the woman who says she is merely blessed for having reared Him.
Mary is blessed because she is an example of having heard the word and kept it just as this same Gospel writer records at the beginning of the account.

Posted in full earlier in the thread by one of our Catholic friends,
Think of this then, and when you hear a certain woman saying, Blessed is the womb that bare You, and the paps which You have sucked, and Him answering, rather blessed are they that do the will of my Father Luke 11:27.. For the answer was not that of one rejecting his mother, but of One who would show that her having borne Him would have nothing availed her, had she not been very good and faithful.
-St John Chrysostom

 

[JulieB67]

No, you have it backwards he was not diminishing His mother, He is correcting the woman who says she is merely blessed for having reared Him.

I don't see it that way at all. And no, he wasn't putting her down -just stating that " Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the Word of God and obey it. And the other verses I posted puts everything into context. He could have easily raised her up and said yes blessed is her womb, etc. You all certainly seem to think her womb is blessed. But he didn't. He calls to the fact that everyone is blessed that hears the word of God and obeys it. He didn't say yea rather, blessed is my mother because she heard the word of God and obeyed it.

We have to let the scriptures speak for themselves. And we have to take everything in context. The early church did not raise her up, not once.

 

[Laodicean60]

Those who suggest that Christ could not be sinless unless His mother was born sinless - somehow grant His mother to be sinless without her mother having to also be sinless. Have they thought that through? Is something missing from their proposal?

Ultimately it was up to Jesus to pass the test. After that, all bets are off.

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 11:27 "And it came to pass, as He spake these things, and certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto Him, "Blessed is the womb that bare Thee, and the paps which Thou hast sucked."

Luke 11:28 "But He said, "Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

NASB -
27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

Jesus points to the fact that the spiritual blessing for those who hear and obey the Word of God - is much higher than biological parentage blessing.

So He is not negating it -- he is pointing to the one of much greater value.

 

[Divide]

NASB -
27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

Jesus points to the fact that the spiritual blessing for those who hear and obey the Word of God - is much higher than biological parentage blessing.

So He is not negating it -- he is pointing to the one of much greater value.

I'll buy that.

I bet Mary gets more respect in heaven than any other human when we get there.

 

[concretecamper]

Jesus points to the fact that the spiritual blessing for those who hear and obey the Word of God - is much higher than biological parentage blessing.

Precisely, He was talking about His Mother and why she is so Blessed.

"fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum"

 

[Divide]

"let it be done unto me according to thy word"

Gotta Love Google Translate, lol!

 

[FenderTL5]

I don't see it that way at all...

I understand that

the other verses I posted puts everything into context.

the context is His mother in Luke. You abandoned that context to look elswhere to support your understanding.

 

[FenderTL5]

NASB -
27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

Jesus points to the fact that the spiritual blessing for those who hear and obey the Word of God - is much higher than biological parentage blessing.

So He is not negating it -- he is pointing to the one of much greater value.

I agree, and in Luke 11 that point is made in reference to His mother.

 

[FenderTL5]

Precisely, He was talking about His Mother and why she is so Blessed.

"fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum"

Agree.
γένοιτό μοι κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμά σου.

 

[JulieB67]

the context is His mother in Luke. You abandoned that context to look elswhere to support your understanding.

The verses I posted add context to what Christ is stating here. Anyone that does the will of the Father is his family. And from that you are truly blessed we are promised that. You are reading into that being just about Mary because you've been "taught" that in your church. A church that is a far cry from what the early churchs taught.

I knew nothing about these verses when I first read the bible in it's entirety because I went to a church that fed only milk. One or two verses surrounded by a personal sermon that had nothing to do with the word of God. I always say and I'll say it again, one could sit a lifetime in a pew and come away with only being fed milk. So I had no preconceived ideas about these verses. I finally started studying for myself because of seeds being planted to me about the pretrib rapture over 20 years ago but that's another matter altogether. Just pointing out that I only went into the Bible seeking truth because apparently the church I was raised in was preaching false doctrines. And we, just as the people did with the early churches have to seek scripture to see if what we are being taught is truth. But I'm disgressing...

The truth about Mary along the way was very easy to see. Even with Hebrew/Greek study tools because we know words get lost in translation at times.
These verses in Luke completely contradict the beliefs you have of Mary so you have to read into it that way. Just as you have to believe that Mary and Joseph didn't have any other children. Just as you have to believe that his siblings are his cousins and so on. You cannot let the scriptures speak for themselves because if you do, than your doctrine of your Immaculate Virgin falls apart. And if that falls apart, your church falls apart. A church you believe to be the "true" church. Which again the true church is the church that holds to the teachings of Christ/disciples/apostles, not adds to them. Once you've done that, you've branched off of the true church. Just as many other denominations have done so.

Mary was an honorable, humble, righteous woman who was blessed among women to have given birth to Christ. Generations will call her "blessed" and she was and we still see that she indeed was blessed. Giving her glory beyond that is taking away from the Father/Christ. We know she was the mother of Christ, but beyond that fact, she has no part in our salvation process. If she was, the early churches would have taught that and raised her up as so.

Thank goodness God is the ultimate heart knower. He knows if someone within their heart/mind is giving Mary glory that's reserved for him and him alone. If someone is putting love for her above the love for the Father/Christ.

 

[FenderTL5]

The verses I posted add context

I'm not convinced you know what context is. Going to a different account of the Gospel story, written by a different author, in a different setting, relating a different event does not provide "context."
It's additional information about a different context.

Context: the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea. The parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.
Examples:
in context; considered together with the surrounding words or circumstances.
out of context; without the surrounding words or circumstances and so not fully understandable.

What you have done is add additional information in order to confuse the context.

Anyone that does the will of the Father is his family.

That is supported in Matthew and elsewhere. I've previously shown agreement with that comment and do not disagree now.

You are reading into that being just about Mary

"just" is your addition, I never said that.
otoh, you seem to insist that the passage is about everyone to the exclusion of Mary. Yet Mary is the context. The context is in direct response to a comment concerning the one who has “..the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!”
That would be the Theotokos. Unless you think everyone fits that description.

because you've been "taught" that in your church. A church that is a far cry from what the early churchs taught.

You put taught in quotes as-if being taught in Church is a bad thing. Secondarily, what do you know about what I was or wasn't taught. That seems a tad presumptuous on your part.
This isn't the first time in this thread you've made a disparaging remark toward the or "your Church."
At this point I'm not certain you even recognize "my" Church.

I knew nothing about these verses when I first read the bible in it's entirety because I went to a church that fed only milk. One or two verses surrounded by a personal sermon that had nothing to do with the word of God. I always say and I'll say it again, one could sit a lifetime in a pew and come away with only being fed milk. So I had no preconceived ideas about these verses. I finally started studying for myself because of seeds being planted to me about the pretrib rapture over 20 years ago but that's another matter altogether. Just pointing out that I only went into the Bible seeking truth because apparently the church I was raised in was preaching false doctrines. And we, just as the people did with the early churches have to seek scripture to see if what we are being taught is truth. But I'm disgressing...

I'm sorry and saddened to hear of your poor catechesis.

These verses in Luke completely contradict the beliefs you have of Mary

Not so. They reinforce the story Luke has told which begins with Mary hearing the word of the Lord and accepting/keeping it (chapter 1 specifically). In addition to that which has already been posted in this regard; Elizabeth says, "..blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”

the true church is the church that holds to the teachings of Christ/disciples/apostles, not adds to them. Once you've done that, you've branched off of the true church. Just as many other denominations have done so.

I couldn't help but notice that you give no indication which true church you are supposedly affiliated with.
All you have done is make disparaging remarks about others as well as your own past experience.

Mary was an honorable, humble, righteous woman who was blessed among women to have given birth to Christ. Generations will call her "blessed" and she was and we still see that she indeed was blessed. Giving her glory beyond that is taking away from the Father/Christ. We know she was the mother of Christ, but beyond that fact, she has no part in our salvation process. If she was, the early churches would have taught that and raised her up as so.

You should read the first two chapters of Luke's Gospel, it tells the story the Incarnation, which is indeed a significant part of the salvation of mankind. Mary plays a key role in the Incarnation.
There's reason why all of the Apostolic Churches east and west agree that Mary is the Theotokos. This even carried over into the early Reformers, Calvin, Luther, Wesley all agreed on the Blessedness of the Virgin Mary. It's because this has been taught since the beginning. Not only is in the Gospels, it is in the ante-Nicene writings of the Church.
It is only recently that this has come into question and it's usually coming from those who strike out on their own dismissing the ancient, historical Church(es) (east, west, Reformed or not).

Thank goodness God is the ultimate heart knower. He knows if someone within their heart/mind is giving Mary glory that's reserved for him and him alone. If someone is putting love for her above the love for the Father/Christ.

On this we can agree. Although, it tends to come across as an accusation of which you are in no position to make.

 

[Lost Witness]

She is blessed because she heard the Word of God and obeyed it, which is in Holy Scripture

Which is no different than anyone else who obeys when the LORD speaks to them...