The Triumph of Bidenomics!

[rambot]

Meanwhile, my advice as a economic advisor is sell your stocks and buy a horse because this technological, economic model is going down.
To government regulation.

I look forward to seeing pictures of you galloping down the road amongst the electric and gas powered vehicles next year! I mean, no advisor would not heed their OWN advice. Otherwise, boy! How silly would that look!

 

[QvQ]

I look forward to seeing pictures of you galloping down the road amongst the electric and gas powered vehicles next year!

The Amish, you do know about the Amish, don't you?

 

[The Barbarian]

The Amish, you do know about the Amish, don't you?

The Amish refuse to use internal combustion engines. Thought you knew.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Mr Biden, who was on the second day of a three-day trip to several Western states, told attendees at the campaign event that a person had approached him to talk about a high debt burden.

“Just the other day this defeated looking man came up to me and said: ‘Mr. President I need your help. I’m in crushing debt. I’m completely wiped out,’” he said.

After a moment, Mr Biden delivered the punchline... “Donald, I’m sorry. I can’t help you”.

 

[The Barbarian]

The market for gasoline cars benefits from loads of subsidies already. Acting as if moves to promote electric cars are any more interventionist than, say, density-minimizing zoning laws or transportation policies that favor highway construction over transit (both of which favor vehicles with longer range), just shows how much you've normalized the advantages afforded IEC vehicles.

Today's winner. Yes, we often forget the many ways in which oil companies are subsidized. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[iluvatar5150]

The Amish refuse to use internal combustion engines. Thought you knew.

You don't know any Amish people, do you?

IME, they're perfectly happy to let you use your ICE's to help them do stuff.

Mr Biden, who was on the second day of a three-day trip to several Western states, told attendees at the campaign event that a person had approached him to talk about a high debt burden.

“Just the other day this defeated looking man came up to me and said: ‘Mr. President I need your help. I’m in crushing debt. I’m completely wiped out,’” he said.

After a moment, Mr Biden delivered the punchline... “Donald, I’m sorry. I can’t help you”.

I laughed at that more than I'd have expected.

 

[The Barbarian]

You don't know any Amish people, do you?

Grew up in Iowa.

IME, they're perfectly happy to let you use your ICE's to help them do stuff.

Yep. They just don't do it themselves. And some of them will buy a tractor to use the power take-off, but won't use it as a vehicle. Others will use tractors if they have steel wheels instead of rubber tires. It's not that they see those things as intrinsically evil; it's that they avoid things that will lead them to pride or sloth.

 

[rambot]

The Amish, you do know about the Amish, don't you?

Yes. Are YOU Amish? What do the Amish have to do with your impending new purchase? Do they raise a certain breed of horse you're interested in?

 

[probinson]

The latest changes in Americans’ views of the economy and its trajectory are mainly owed to Democrats’ increased positivity. Democrats’ rating of the economy as excellent or good rose from 38% in December to 54% this month. Likewise, the percentage of Democrats saying the economy is getting better increased from 54% to 64% over the same period. At the same time, neither Republicans’ nor independents’ views changed significantly. Few Republicans, 8%, currently rate the economy as excellent or good, while the 21% of independents who offer the same rating is closer to the national average.​

​

Economic Mood Improves, but Inflation Still Vexing Americans

Americans remain largely negative about the state of the economy and inflation, but their economic confidence is the highest it has been in two years.

news.gallup.com

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​

The comments in this thread mirror the national polling perfectly. Democrats in the thread are inclined to believe things are looking up. But they're the only ones.

 

[QvQ]

Yes. Are YOU Amish? What do the Amish have to do with your impending new purchase? Do they raise a certain breed of horse you're interested in?

My father was a professional horse trainer. He specialized in carriage horses. So yes, I do know about horse and buggy
I can also run a pack string.
Meanwhile the Amish, as I have heard, are partial to Standardbred for carriages. The Amish buy some Standardbred that are retired race horse (harness) that are sold at auction although I would assume the Amish do raise some of their own horses.
The work horses are Percheron and Belgium draft horses.
Yup, I do know a bit about horses.
If the price of gas increases too much or government bans gas powered vehicles, I will not have a bit of trouble going horse and buggy.

 

[rambot]

My father was a professional horse trainer. He specialized in carriage horses. So yes, I do know about horse and buggy
I can also run a pack string.
Meanwhile the Amish, as I have heard, are partial to Standardbred for carriages. The Amish buy some Standardbred that are retired race horse (harness) that are sold at auction although I would assume the Amish do raise some of their own horses.
The work horses are Percheron and Belgium draft horses.
Yup, I do know a bit about horses.
If the price of gas increases too much or government bans gas powered vehicles, I will not have a bit of trouble going horse and buggy.

But you've already recommended other people purchase their horse. It sounded pretty dire a few posts ago.

Are you suggesting now that maybe people wouldn't need to buy a horse just yet?

 

[QvQ]

But you've already recommended other people purchase their horse. It sounded pretty dire a few posts ago.

Are you suggesting now that maybe people wouldn't need to buy a horse just yet?

It depends
Biden has a host of new taxes on oil companies in the budget. Then there are the regulations.
How long before gasoline engines are banned altogether or taxed into extinction?

The current economic situation is closer to 1873 than 1929. In 1873, the government was heavily subsidizing rail roads to replace freight wagons. And people were investing in the stock market. "73 was a bigger crash and a longer depression than the 1930's

BTW Americans love trains. So many songs. "It takes a lot to laugh, it takes a train to cry" "Wabash Cannon Ball" "Wreck of Old 97" "Rock Island Line" "City of New Orleans"
And the glamour of the rails; hobos, train robbers
There are thousands of miles of abandoned track in America.
Trains are not economically feasible.
The Ev's may meet the same fate.
Ev's and alternate energy cannot be realized on the government's current schedule in any event, so we may have songs about the "Crash of Old '24

 

[rambot]

It depends
Biden has a host of new taxes on oil companies in the budget. Then there are the regulations.
How long before gasoline engines are banned altogether or taxed into extinction?

For a ban? I would guess 50+ years.

And why is that a bad thing? Why hold on to an outdated INCREDIBLY old technology?
Look at how much a cell phone changed from the90s to now.

to

It starts to get absurd that you want to hold onto this old outdate, dirty technology. Why? Why do you want to die on the internal combustion engine hill? It's such a pointless one.

I could picture a poster yelling at a secretary "Hey! Don't get rid of the mimeograph machine!!!"
"But it's old and this printer does a better job faster!"
"I don't care! It doesn't give you the cardio workout of the mimeograph!"

It's silly.

 

[QvQ]

I could picture a poster yelling at a secretary "Hey! Don't get rid of the mimeograph machine!!!"

If there is nothing to replace the mimeograph machine, then that is sound advice.
Right now there is nothing to reliably replace gasoline engines. There is also nothing to replace coal fired electric plants.
Therefore, the government wants unreliable vehicles and not enough power to supply them by 2030.
Eventually maybe EV's will replace gas engines but for now, the technology is not there.
And it won't be there in 6 years, however much Biden waves his magic eco wand and shouts "make it so."
Technological advance is not now nor has it ever been, accomplished by government edict.

 

[probinson]

It starts to get absurd that you want to hold onto this old outdate, dirty technology. Why? Why do you want to die on the internal combustion engine hill? It's such a pointless one.

EVs are almost certainly the future. There's no doubt about that.

The government, however, is trying to force this transition too quickly.

EVs are not practical for long-term driving. The electrical grid is insufficient to support a rapid ramp-up of EVs. The costs of EVs are out-of-reach for many Americans, with only two EVs currently sitting below $40K.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. When an EV can do everything my ICE vehicle can do at a comparable price, then I'll happily buy one.

In your examples, above, the technology was greatly improved. But as it stands, if I want to take a trip to Florida from Pennsylvania (as I do most every year), I am being introduced to all kinds of hurdles with an EV that just do not exist with my ICE vehicle.

When EVs are better than ICE vehicles, people will gladly purchase them. But they simply are not an analogous replacement for ICE vehicles.

Yet.

 

[probinson]

Here, a new battery plant will require COAL power to keep it running. Oh, and everyone in Kansas might have to pay higher electric rates also.

Evergy is also citing the Panasonic plant, which will produce batteries for electric vehicles, in saying it will continue to burn coal at a Lawrence power plant until at least 2028. The utility will also delay until then plans to transition part of the plant from coal to natural gas. The decisions have spurred criticism from environmental advocates. The possibility that Kansas ratepayers may be asked to help shoulder the burden of providing Panasonic with power comes as the international company is already expected to receive as much as $8 billion in federal, state and local incentives and support for the Johnson County battery plant. Panasonic will likely qualify for a discounted electric rate offered to economic development projects.​

​

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article277462213.html

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[rambot]

Yet.

That's the magical word. And that's why I gave a LONG timeframe before we'd be done with ICE...frankly, it's probably gonna be later. I just realized I didn't give a SUPER long timeline...maybe as long as 75 years before ICEs would be banned.

 

[probinson]

That's the magical word. And that's why I gave a LONG timeframe before we'd be done with ICE...frankly, it's probably gonna be later. I just realized I didn't give a SUPER long timeline...maybe as long as 75 years before ICEs would be banned.

But the new EPA rules are essentially trying to accelerate the transition to EVs prematurely. The WSJ editorial board posted an article today detailing how the EPAs new tailpipe regulations are really just an EV mandate in disguise.

Biden officials are stressing that the new auto greenhouse gas emissions standards they rolled out on Wednesday aren’t an electric-vehicle mandate. But the liberal press and climate lobby don’t buy it, and neither should Americans.​

The Environmental Protection Agency somewhat eased CO2 emissions requirements through 2030 from its proposal last spring while maintaining essentially the same end-point for 2032. That means gas-powered cars can make up no more than 30% of auto sales by 2032. Make no mistake: This is a coerced phase-out of gas-powered cars.​

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...​

​

The companies are heavily subsidizing EVs with profits from gas-powered cars. This means middle-class Americans in Fargo are paying more for gas-powered cars so the affluent in Napa Valley can buy cheaper EVs. This cost-shift won’t be financially sustainable as the Biden mandate ramps up, and it may not be politically sustainable either​

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https://www.wsj.com/articles/joe-biden-electric-vehicle-mandate-gas-powered-cars-2032-epa-c2a72414

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​

In November, over 4,000 auto dealerships representing every brand of vehicle and all 50 states sent a letter to the President that said this:

Mr. President, it is time to tap the brakes on the unrealistic government electric vehicle mandate. Allow time for the battery technology to advance. Allow time to make BEVs more affordable. Allow time to develop domestic sources for the minerals to make batteries. Allow time for the charging infrastructure to be built and prove reliable. And most of all, allow time for the American consumer to get comfortable with the technology and make the choice to buy an electric vehicle.​

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https://44308654.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/44308654/EV%20Letter%201.pdf

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​

Yesterday after the new EPA regulations were announced, they sent this follow-up:

​

Today, the EPA released the final greenhouse gas rule for model years 2027-2032. On the positive side, the regulations have been softened in the early years from 2027-2030 in recognition of the slowing growth of EV sales. ​

​

However, the regulations still would require an increase in sales of electric vehicles that is far beyond the consumer interest we are experiencing at our dealerships. Despite generous government, manufacturer and dealer incentives, our customers continue to bypass EVs over concerns about affordability, charging infrastructure, performance in cold weather, and resale value. Worse still, the regulations spike in 2031-32 and revert to the unrealistic mandate that essentially requires that two-thirds of all vehicles sold be electric.​

​

This EV mandate is not the result of an open Congressional debate. This is unelected Washington bureaucrats dictating what kind of vehicles Americans can buy.​

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We agree with NADA and urge the Administration to track EV sales versus projections and make necessary adjustments to reflect consumer demand.​

​

We can take some solace in knowing that the voice of our customers broke through enough to convince the Biden Administration to moderate the mandate in the early years. But sadly the regulation stubbornly hangs on to an EV mandate that is clearly disconnected from the realities of the marketplace and the voice of the customer.​

​

Voice of the Customer

Join auto dealers nationwide in signing a letter regarding the proposed regulations on battery-electric vehicles (BEVs). Together, we can emphasize...

evvoiceofthecustomer.com

​

 

[rambot]

If there is nothing to replace the mimeograph machine, then that is sound advice.
Right now there is nothing to reliably replace gasoline engines. There is also nothing to replace coal fired electric plants.
Therefore, the government wants unreliable vehicles and not enough power to supply them by 2030.
Eventually maybe EV's will replace gas engines but for now, the technology is not there.
And it won't be there in 6 years, however much Biden waves his magic eco wand and shouts "make it so."
Technological advance is not now nor has it ever been, accomplished by government edict.

Given the nationalistic spirit conservatives have, I find it utterly baffling how limp and ineffectual they actually and truly, find American innovation.
You guys here are whining about 60% 6 years from now as an objective and we got....

Europe has almost hte same target. America gets involved in an arms race that can lead to the destruction of the planet and everyone is 100% on board. America attempts to challenge itself to improve conditions on the planet for future generations "no. Can't happen. We cannot do it. It can't be done".
And just ignore so many other parts of the developed world.

Even China has a target of 40% and they have 20million MORE cars with you.

What...are you telling me you're going to lose to China? You guys SERIOUSLY think you can't beat China on this one?

 

[probinson]

Given the nationalistic spirit conservatives have, I find it utterly baffling how limp and ineffectual they actually and truly, find American innovation.

There's innovation, and then there's reality.

For example, from the second letter the auto dealerships sent to the Biden Administration:

Despite the $7.5 billion allocated two years ago to build public electric vehicle charging stations, just three have been opened to date. Range anxiety is a major factor in consumers’ reluctance to buy electric vehicles. Based on the government’s estimates, 2.8 million public chargers will be needed by 2032, but only 170,000 public chargers exist today. That means 800 new chargers would have to be built every single day -- for the next nine years. Clearly, this is not even in the realm of possibility.​

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https://44308654.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/44308654/EV%20VOC%20Letter%20%232.pdf

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