A debate about Israel = posts pulled from a different thread

[One God and Father of All]

ADVISOR HAT
This thread contains posts pulled from this thread:

Democrat Schumer promotes election interference in an American Ally

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/schumer-calls-for-end-of-netanyahu-led-government-in-israel/ar-BB1jT9fl?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=9448e75d1ef843388dd0f79fb035de49&ei=209 WASHINGTON—In a sign of growing U.S. pressure on Israel over the war in Gaza, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer said...

www.christianforums.com

They were off topic to that thread.

First post:

It's strange to me that you have such a hate on for Hamas when it is Israel that is withholding support and doing pretty awful things.

In fact, you neve really address anything terrible Israel has done, despite my inclusion in my posts.

Does not Israel have a right to the land God has given them? When they were permitted by God to return to their own land (after the holocaust) they have been hated and threatened by those who basically want to annihilated them or else worship the god of Islam. Israel simply wants the land God has given them. If you understand the Scripture, you’ll see that eventually Israel will have her land. It just a matter of when. It’s a promise from the God who keeps His promises.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Does not Israel have a right to the land God has given them?

No, they don't.

The most charitable interpretation of this idea is that one religion claims that their deity granted them a land claim some 4,000 years ago.

In no other context do we base such significant decisions on religious claims that old, based on documents of questionable historicity. Otherwise, we'd be giving the US back to the natives.

When they were permitted by God to return to their own land (after the holocaust)

They weren't "permitted by God" to return there. They were granted a nation-state by the political bodies who previously ruled over the area.

 

[One God and Father of All]

No, they don't.

The most charitable interpretation of this idea is that one religion claims that their deity granted them a land claim some 4,000 years ago.

In no other context do we base such significant decisions on religious claims that old, based on documents of questionable historicity. Otherwise, we'd be giving the US back to the natives.



They weren't "permitted by God" to return there. They were granted a nation-state by the political bodies who previously ruled over the area.

My God doesn’t sleep. And neither does the God of Israel. It’s too bad you don’t know the gospel. The gospel began with Abraham, a Hebrew, whom God promised to give him the land that he actually walked. Abraham will inherit that land through Christ( a Jew) who is the testator of that inheritance. God will keep His promise of inheritance.

 

[One God and Father of All]

I tried to look up the war between Israel and Palestine. It is brand Hamas as a good guy and Israel as a devil bent on revenge. I know that is a lie and I can't find the truth.

Islamic rebels want all of the Middle East to be Islam. Most of it already is. Israel is a problem for them. And so is the God of Israel.

 

[iluvatar5150]

My God doesn’t sleep. And neither does the God of Israel. It’s too bad you don’t know the gospel. The gospel began with Abraham, a Hebrew, whom God promised to give him the land that he actually walked. Abraham will inherit that land through Christ( a Jew) who is the testator of that inheritance. God will keep His promise of inheritance.

I’m quite familiar with it. What I’m not familiar with are the passages promising a reinstatement of a Jewish government or the passages equating the modern nation-state of Israel with the descendants of Abraham.

 

[DJWhalen]

Islamic rebels want all of the Middle East to be Islam. Most of it already is. Israel is a problem for them. And so is the God of Israel.

Yes they do, but it was given to Abraham and the Jew's. That is the truth they can't accept that.

 

[One God and Father of All]

I’m quite familiar with it. What I’m not familiar with are the passages promising a reinstatement of a Jewish government or the passages equating the modern nation-state of Israel with the descendants of Abraham.

Christ is to rule from Jerusalem and in Revelation we read that the 144,000: are taken from among Israel. Those are referred to as the “remnant“ of Israel spoken of by the prophets. It will be the time when Israel is restored and the God of Israel their God.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Christ is to rule from Jerusalem and in Revelation we read that the 144,000: are taken from among Israel.

Israel the political entity or Israel the descendants of Abraham?

Those are referred to as the “remnant“ of Israel spoken of by the prophets. It will be the time when Israel is restored and the God of Israel their God.

Ok, so Israel isn’t restored until after the rapture. We haven’t hit the rapture yet, so why do we care about Bibi and his zionists?

 

[rambot]

Does...

In the meantime Israel is starving babies and you're cool with it.

I do not believe, in today's world, God would have people starve children to "fulfill his will".

Since Jesus has already fulfilled the Word, there's no reason to continue to belabour the idea that any kind of land belongs to Israel.

 

[One God and Father of All]

My Bible start's in Genesis and end's in Revelation. I remember reading about God giving it to Abraham.

14And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15for all the land which you see I give to you and your [c]descendants forever. 16And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you.” (Gen 13:14-17)

God has given to Abraham and his descendants all the land which God instructed Abraham to literally walk. That land is his!

 

[One God and Father of All]

Israel the political entity or Israel the descendants of Abraham?



Ok, so Israel isn’t restored until after the rapture. We haven’t hit the rapture yet, so why do we care about Bibi and his zionists?

I’m not anti-Semitic. I understand there will be a falling away of Israel which will bring God’s judgment upon them but a remnant will be saved and their government restored under their God.

 

[Desk trauma]

Does not Israel have a right to the land God has given them?

No, religious claims of land ownership are not a part of international law.

 

[One God and Father of All]

No, religious claims of land ownership are not a part of international law.

It’s part of the plan of the God of Israel.

 

[BCP1928]

It’s part of the plan of the God of Israel.

Which is entirely irrelevant.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Israel is interested in the land God has promised them. They are NOT interested in blind Biden’s “Two state” idea with the Palestinians. God is going to give Israel the land He PROMiSIED them, no matter what the blind nations think.

Ah, so a Deus Vult then?

God wills the total annihilation of the Gazans, because you choose to ignore the context of Scripture and believe in the false teachings of heretics and wolves in sheep's clothing?

I'm sure that won't ever come to bite us in the back end. It's not like the Church failing to take Scripture seriously has ever been a problem before.

Crusades - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Spanish Inquisition - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Indulgence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Bad Popes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Witch trials in the early modern period - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

European wars of religion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Atlantic slave trade - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Conquistador - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Native American genocide in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

German Christians movement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Positive Christianity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dominion theology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

-CryptoLutheran

 

[One God and Father of All]

Ah, so a Deus Vult then?

God wills the total annihilation of the Gazans, because you choose to ignore the context of Scripture and believe in the false teachings of heretics and wolves in sheep's clothing?

I'm sure that won't ever come to bite us in the back end. It's not like the Church failing to take Scripture seriously has ever been a problem before.

Crusades - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Spanish Inquisition - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Indulgence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Bad Popes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Witch trials in the early modern period - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

European wars of religion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Atlantic slave trade - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Conquistador - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Native American genocide in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

German Christians movement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Positive Christianity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dominion theology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

-CryptoLutheran

Why would I believe in false teaching of heretics? My belief is based on many years of Bible study. I have looked at all sides of an argument and have come to my own conclusions.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why would I believe in false teaching of heretics? My belief is based on many years of Bible study. I have looked at all sides of an argument and have come to my own conclusions.

Then here is a question that should be simple to answer: According to the Bible, to whom are the promises made to Abraham? And what is the point of these promises?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[One God and Father of All]

Then here is a question that should be simple to answer: According to the Bible, to whom are the promises made to Abraham? And what is the point of these promises?

-CryptoLutheran

God made promise to Abraham himself and all of his descendants to be heirs of the land and life eternal. The promise came to be effective by the death and resurrection of the promised seed(singular) who is Christ. All those therefore who are in Christ are heirs with Christ of the promises made to Abraham, and are therefore counted among Abraham's descendants.

 

[ViaCrucis]

God made promise to Abraham himself and all of his descendants to be heirs of the land and life eternal. The promise came to be effective by the death and resurrection of the promised seed(singular) who is Christ. All those therefore who are in Christ are heirs with Christ of the promises made to Abraham, and are therefore counted among Abraham's descendants.

Is merely being descended from Abraham enough? I ask this one rhetorically, because the answer to this can be found in Scripture easily, see e.g.John 8:31-59, Romans 11:17-24, and Galatians 3:7-14.

What is the promise? Who receives it, and how is it received?

To put it simply: God does not care about DNA, He cares about faith. And if you understand the Scriptures, then you know that the point of God's enduring faithfulness and promise has nothing to do with a piece of real estate in the Levant, but with His commitment with all of creation

The goal is not that Jewish people will inhabit a chunk of desert, the goal is that all people should be redeemed and all of creation restored.

Ever notice the ways in which events in the New Testament mirror and parallel events in the Old Testament? Look at the events as they unfold in Genesis: It begins broad and narrows down, from Adam to Abraham, from Abraham to Jacob to Judah--and what happens in the Gospels? In the Acts of the Apostles, and the ways in which the whole New Testament points toward the ultimate end of God's purposes: New Heavens and New Earth.

The Land of promise, given to Abraham's progeny through Jacob, was not an end unto itself; but that through this the Messiah should come, who would unite Jew and Gentile, and be as a new Adam, to restore the whole human race to communion with God, accomplished through His Passion, Death, and Resurrection; and who reigns at the right hand of the Father, the enthroned Messiah who is Lord of lords and King of kings, until the Day of His glorious return when "death is swallowed up in victory".

Looking to a slice of land in the Levant misses the whole point. It was never about ha-Eretz Yisrael; but Jesus Christ, He is Israel.

-CryptoLUtheran

 

[One God and Father of All]

Is merely being descended from Abraham enough? I ask this one rhetorically, because the answer to this can be found in Scripture easily, see e.g.John 8:31-59, Romans 11:17-24, and Galatians 3:7-14.

What is the promise? Who receives it, and how is it received?

To put it simply: God does not care about DNA, He cares about faith. And if you understand the Scriptures, then you know that the point of God's enduring faithfulness and promise has nothing to do with a piece of real estate in the Levant, but with His commitment with all of creation

The goal is not that Jewish people will inhabit a chunk of desert, the goal is that all people should be redeemed and all of creation restored.

Ever notice the ways in which events in the New Testament mirror and parallel events in the Old Testament? Look at the events as they unfold in Genesis: It begins broad and narrows down, from Adam to Abraham, from Abraham to Jacob to Judah--and what happens in the Gospels? In the Acts of the Apostles, and the ways in which the whole New Testament points toward the ultimate end of God's purposes: New Heavens and New Earth.

The Land of promise, given to Abraham's progeny through Jacob, was not an end unto itself; but that through this the Messiah should come, who would unite Jew and Gentile, and be as a new Adam, to restore the whole human race to communion with God, accomplished through His Passion, Death, and Resurrection; and who reigns at the right hand of the Father, the enthroned Messiah who is Lord of lords and King of kings, until the Day of His glorious return when "death is swallowed up in victory".

Looking to a slice of land in the Levant misses the whole point. It was never about ha-Eretz Yisrael; but Jesus Christ, He is Israel.

-CryptoLUtheran

When God makes promises, He keeps them. God showed Abraham the land he was to inherit. God told Abraham to literally walk that land.

14And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15for all the land which you see I give to you and your [c]descendants forever. 16And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you.” (Gen 13:14-17)

Abraham never did possess that land. But he will, and so will all of his faithful descendants because God keeps His promise.