Eschatology: The "Left Behind" narrative is unbiblical

[tdidymas]

2 Th 2:1-3, when read by its original wording says the rapture comes before the Trib, and the Trib starts with the first revelation of the AC in Rev 6:1-2.

Paul's Thessalonian flock was deceived by a fraudulent letter they received, made to appear to be from Paul, stating that they had missed the rapture and were now in Trib. Paul then corrects his flock that the Trib won't come until after the rapture.

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

The ending words to verse 3 are about Rev 6:1-2. That is the first seal judgment and it starts the Trib. Therefore, in 2 Th 2:1-3, Paul is saying the rapture comes before the Trib, and then the Trib is started by Rev 6:1-2.

I don't agree with your assessment. The deception was about them missing the coming of Christ and the resurrection. The were upset because they thought missing the first resurrection meant they were subject to the 2nd death. That is, they weren't saved after all. This is expressed in v. 13 by Paul's saying "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation" to comfort them.

 

[Clare73]

You asked: Would he not be in view of all who were there?

Only two angels and the Apostles were there with Jesus, in Acts 6-11. Therefore, it is true: Jesus ascended in the view of believers, only. Therefore, Jesus will descend in the view of believers, only. Those are Scriptural facts, straight from the Bible (Acts 1:6-11 and 1 Th 4:16-17).

But are those the only facts demonstrated there?
Does the text not also demonstrate that all who were there saw him. . .which in addition enjoys the Biblical support of Mt 24:30-31,
as well as the support of clear NT apostolic teaching below (in contrast to personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly, Nu 12:8, and subject to more than one interpretation), which apostolic teaching is authoritative to God's people, in the following
Scriptural facts straight from the Bible:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33)?

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the rapture occurs at the end of time:

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = second coming = rapture = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

Is not your personal interpretation of "prophetic riddles not spoken clearly" (Nu 12:8), and subject to more than one interpretation, in disagreement with the authoritative NT apostolic teaching above?

 

[Clare73]

The Second Coming is the second time Jesus is seen by the world.

However, NT apostolic teaching disagrees with that personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation.

There will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming in judgment:
1) Ac 3:21 - Peter states that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything," which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2 Pe 3:10-13; and which John tells us about in Rev 21:1-4, where there is no death because it is eternity.
2) Heb 9:27-28 - Jesus appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between.
Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, at which judgment he will "bring salvation."

Note that in
Heb 9:27-28 - Jesus brings salvation when he appears, and in,
1 Pe 1:5, 13 - Jesus brings salvation when he is revealed.
So that his appearing and his revealing are the same thing; i.e., his bringing salvation when he comes in judgment (Heb 9:27-28, 2 Th 1:6-10) at the end of time, and not two separate events. Therefore, there can be no appearing for the rapture separate from his revealing at the judgment, because they are one and the same event at the end of time, as Paul teaches in 2 Th 1:6-10, 2:1-8.

So there is no appearing or revealing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things (2 Pe 3:13) at the end of time.

It's not his only coming after his first. The next appearance of Jesus will be behind clouds, just as stated in 1 Th 4:17.

Keeping in mind there is no "behind clouds" in the Greek texts.
There is only "in clouds" at the second coming (1 Th 4:17), and "a cloud received him" at his ascension (Ac 1:9).

And are you not just simply repeating your assertions here without addressing the Biblical refutations which I have presented?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Tks for the info. Although the passage cited from Ephraim is a pseudo-writing, doesn't it still prove their point that the pre-trib idea is much earlier than 19th Century? (They date the writing about 450 but with a question mark).

It doesn't, because the same text says that the dead will rise to meet Christ at His coming in Judgment. It just means that they aren't reading the text correctly.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The propagandists who are trying to stamp out the truth of the pre-Trib rapture in the Bible have done a very good job. That doesn't change the original Greek and what apostasia means in its second definition: departure/disappearance. Therefore, "departure" means "physical departure."

What you are advocating for is a conspiracy theory. This is no different than a flat-earther claiming that evidence for the roundness of the earth is all made up and part of a grand conspiracy to cover up the truth that the earth is flat.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Tks for the info. Although the passage cited from Ephraim is a pseudo-writing, doesn't it still prove their point that the pre-trib idea is much earlier than 19th Century? (They date the writing about 450 but with a question mark).

The pre-Trib rapture is in the Bible, in early, uncorrupted Bibles. The relevant reference is 2 Th 2:1-3. If you don't believe that, believe Jesus's words in Rev 3:10. If you don't believe that, read 1 Th 1:10 and then Rev 6:4 for the earliest known wrath of God in the Trib, which will occur on day 1 of the Trib. How is Rev 6:4 the earliest of God's wrath in the Trib? By the use of wars to inflict punishment (God's anger). If your Bible version only uses the word "sword" in that verse, that is the the term for wars. Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT) says it plainly that wars, orchestrated by God, are a certified form of God's wrath.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I don't agree with your assessment. The deception was about them missing the coming of Christ and the resurrection. The were upset because they thought missing the first resurrection meant they were subject to the 2nd death. That is, they weren't saved after all. This is expressed in v. 13 by Paul's saying "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation" to comfort them.

No, you are not understanding those verses. I'm done.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But are those the only facts demonstrated there?
Does the text not also demonstrate that all who were there saw him. . .which in addition enjoys the Biblical support of Mt 24:30-31,
as well as the support of clear NT apostolic teaching below (in contrast to personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly, Nu 12:8, and subject to more than one interpretation), which apostolic teaching is authoritative to God's people, in the following
Scriptural facts straight from the Bible:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33)?

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the rapture occurs at the end of time:

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = second coming = rapture = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

Is not your personal interpretation of "prophetic riddles not spoken clearly" (Nu 12:8), and subject to more than one interpretation, in disagreement with the authoritative NT apostolic teaching above?

Please read Rev 3:10. What did Jesus mean by "I will keep you from" in relation to "the hour of trial" that is coming on the whole world?

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

However, NT apostolic teaching disagrees with that personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation.

There will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming in judgment:
1) Ac 3:21 - Peter states that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything," which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2 Pe 3:10-13; and which John tells us about in Rev 21:1-4, where there is no death because it is eternity.
2) Heb 9:27-28 - Jesus appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between.
Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, at which judgment he will "bring salvation."

Note that in
Heb 9:27-28 - Jesus brings salvation when he appears, and in,
1 Pe 1:5, 13 - Jesus brings salvation when he is revealed.
So that his appearing and his revealing are the same thing; i.e., his bringing salvation when he comes in judgment (Heb 9:27-28, 2 Th 1:6-10) at the end of time, and not two separate events. Therefore, there can be no appearing for the rapture separate from his revealing at the judgment, because they are one and the same event at the end of time, as Paul teaches in 2 Th 1:6-10, 2:1-8.

So there is no appearing or revealing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things (2 Pe 3:13) at the end of time.

Keeping in mind there is no "behind clouds" in the Greek texts.
There is only "in clouds" at the second coming (1 Th 4:17), and "a cloud received him" at his ascension (Ac 1:9).

And are you not just simply repeating your assertions here without addressing the Biblical refutations which I have presented?

What is stated in all Bible versions of 1 Th 4:17 is "in the clouds." Regarding Acts 1:9, this is the NIV version: After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Clouds were used to hide Jesus from their sight. The same clouds in 1 Th 4:17 will hide Jesus from our view, until we pass through those clouds. We pass through clouds then see Jesus, because Jesus is behind clouds in the rapture. Therefore, the world below will have no way to see Jesus during the rapture. That is why 1 Th 4:16-17 is definitively the rapture and not the 2A. Jesus is "on clouds" in Matt 24:30 (NIV): “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

The 2A can't possibly be the next prophesied coming of Jesus Christ. The pre-Trib rapture is the next coming (with its viewing clearly limited to believers, only).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What you are advocating for is a conspiracy theory. This is no different than a flat-earther claiming that evidence for the roundness of the earth is all made up and part of a grand conspiracy to cover up the truth that the earth is flat.

-CryptoLutheran

Greek scholars tried to find out from KJV in the 1600's, why they made a sea change in 2 Th 2:3 by replacing "departing" or "departure" with "falling away" when they mean the opposite in Greek. KJV, to this day, has not accounted for why they made that change. They are definitely hiding something. Try finding out from KJV yourself. If it's all innocent, why won't they give their rationale for the change?

 

[Clare73]

Please read Rev 3:10. What did Jesus mean by "I will keep you from" in relation to "the hour of trial" that is coming on the whole world?

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

But that could also be interpreted in terms of 1 Th 2:1-3, as well as Mt 24 where the end of the OT age and the end of the NT age are revealed (see post #48), which is why I do not take my doctrine from prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8), they being subject to more than one interpretation.

The rule for all correct interpretation of prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8) is that they must agree with NT apostolic teaching because the Bible does not contradict itself.
So to be Biblically correct, understanding of prophetic riddles not clearly spoken cannot be in disagreement with clear NT apostolic teaching.

I'm so sorry to have to disappoint you in Biblically understanding eschatology, although I find the eschatology presented in NT apostolic teaching, authoritative to God's people, to be just as marvelous, and more Christ/body of Christ centered.

What is stated in all Bible versions of 1 Th 4:17 is "in the clouds." Regarding Acts 1:9, this is the NIV version: After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

I use the Greek version, the language of the NT manuscripts.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But that could also be interpreted in terms of 1 Th 2:1-3, as well as Mt 24 where the end of the OT age and the end of the NT age are revealed (see post #48), which is why I do not take my doctrine from prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8), they being subject to more than one interpretation.

The rule for all correct interpretation of prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8) is that they must agree with NT apostolic teaching because the Bible does not contradict itself.
So to be Biblically correct, understanding of prophetic riddles not clearly spoken cannot be in disagreement with clear NT apostolic teaching.

I'm so sorry to have to disappoint you in Biblically understanding eschatology, although I find the eschatology presented in NT apostolic teaching, authoritative to God's people, to be just as marvelous, and more Christ/body of Christ centered.

I use the Greek version, the language of the NT manuscripts.

Clare, let's look at the NKJV. Rev 3:10 (NKJV): Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

"... keep you from ..." means to prevent your participation in.

"... the hour of trial ..." is the 7-year Trib.

"...that shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." Those are NOT flattering and loving words. Those very demeaning and condemning words.

"... to test ..." means to push to the limits, as in an unbeliever's resolve to remain an unbeliever.

... "those who dwell on the earth." Those are hardcore unbelievers who have resolved to reject Jesus. They are defined in Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

After we are raptured, as is exactly what Jesus means by "I will also keep you from the hour of trial ... ", those who are left on the earth are "... those who dwell on the earth..." We are not they who then dwell on the earth.

John 14:3 also makes this crystal clear. John 14:3 (ESV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. ----- Where is Jesus now? That is where He is preparing a place for each of us to live in, in Heaven. He will come again AND will take us to Himself. There is no delay after He comes again to us being raptured straight to Heaven. That is why 1 Th 4:16-17 (which are about the same things said in John 14:3) cannot be the 2A. The rapture is pre-Trib; the 2A occurs after the Trib. We are part of God's armies in the 2A, per Rev 19:14.

In all due respect, Greek manuscripts, etc., aren't necessary to understand the simple verses above.

Furthermore, if you study Greek, you know that "apostasia" has five definitions. I focus on two. One means spiritual departure (as in "falling away"), and the other means physical departure (as in disappearance). In 2 Th 2:1, Paul is citing the rapture as the topic of discussion. Rapture is then the context. Verse 2 is about the deception his flock suffered by a fraudulent letter saying they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. Verse 3 corrects his flock. "That day" (the Day of the Lord cited in verse 2) will not come, unless the apostasia (physical departure; disappearance) occurs first, ..."

I know you will disagree.

God bless!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But that could also be interpreted in terms of 1 Th 2:1-3, as well as Mt 24 where the end of the OT age and the end of the NT age are revealed (see post #48), which is why I do not take my doctrine from prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8), they being subject to more than one interpretation.

The rule for all correct interpretation of prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8) is that they must agree with NT apostolic teaching because the Bible does not contradict itself.
So to be Biblically correct, understanding of prophetic riddles not clearly spoken cannot be in disagreement with clear NT apostolic teaching.

I'm so sorry to have to disappoint you in Biblically understanding eschatology, although I find the eschatology presented in NT apostolic teaching, authoritative to God's people, to be just as marvelous, and more Christ/body of Christ centered.

I use the Greek version, the language of the NT manuscripts.

Matt 24:31 occurs after "the hour of trial." Please note that Matt 24:29 ends the Trib (the hour of trial). So, Matt 24:31 has nothing to do with keeping us away from the hour of trial, because when Matt 24:31 occurs, the hour of trial is already over in Matt 24:29.

2 Th 2:1-3 are factually about the pre-Trib rapture, when you understand that "departing" means "disappearing" in Greek, as in a physical departure.

2 Th 2:1 (Amplified Bible): Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

2 Th 2:2 (New Living Translation): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But that could also be interpreted in terms of 1 Th 2:1-3, as well as Mt 24 where the end of the OT age and the end of the NT age are revealed (see post #48), which is why I do not take my doctrine from prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8), they being subject to more than one interpretation.

The rule for all correct interpretation of prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8) is that they must agree with NT apostolic teaching because the Bible does not contradict itself.
So to be Biblically correct, understanding of prophetic riddles not clearly spoken cannot be in disagreement with clear NT apostolic teaching.

I'm so sorry to have to disappoint you in Biblically understanding eschatology, although I find the eschatology presented in NT apostolic teaching, authoritative to God's people, to be just as marvelous, and more Christ/body of Christ centered.

I use the Greek version, the language of the NT manuscripts.

Clare, there is no verse about the 2A that says Jesus is returning and we are gathered to Him. Matt 24:31 is a gathering during the 2A, but it is NOT to Him. How do I know that? That verse does not say we are gathered to Him. It's that simple. In fact, you can't tell me where that gathering ends up. We therefore can't say it is to Him. All verses that are a gathering to Him, say so. That means all the verses that say we are gathered to Him are ONLY about the rapture. That is a fact that I challenge you to disprove.

 

[WilliamC]

The word used in the Greek manuscripts of 2 Th 2:3 is apostasia (apostasy), which meaning is "falling away," and which the KJV translated correctly.

yes...apostasy ...falling away...forsake Strongs 646

 

[tdidymas]

It doesn't, because the same text says that the dead will rise to meet Christ at His coming in Judgment. It just means that they aren't reading the text correctly.

-CryptoLutheran

I know they aren't reading the text correctly. My point was: their point was: the pre-trib idea is older than Darby. So the pseudo-Ephraim text proves their point, does it not?

 

[tdidymas]

The pre-Trib rapture is in the Bible, in early, uncorrupted Bibles. The relevant reference is 2 Th 2:1-3. If you don't believe that, believe Jesus's words in Rev 3:10. If you don't believe that, read 1 Th 1:10 and then Rev 6:4 for the earliest known wrath of God in the Trib, which will occur on day 1 of the Trib. How is Rev 6:4 the earliest of God's wrath in the Trib? By the use of wars to inflict punishment (God's anger). If your Bible version only uses the word "sword" in that verse, that is the the term for wars. Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT) says it plainly that wars, orchestrated by God, are a certified form of God's wrath.

Your response is merely argumentative. I already showed that 2 Thes. 2:1-3 says the opposite of what you claim. Rev. 3:10 is out of context, since it is written to a specific church of the 1st Century. The rest of those texts don't prove nor even imply a pre-trib rapture. So far, your responses show you are pretexting the text.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I know they aren't reading the text correctly. My point was: their point was: the pre-trib idea is older than Darby. So the pseudo-Ephraim text proves their point, does it not?

Since the Pseudo-Ephraem text directly contradicts belief in a pre-trib rapture I don't see how it proves belief in a pre-trib rapture prior to Darby.

There simply isn't anything that proves that anyone believed in a pre-trib rapture before the 19th century.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

Clare, there is no verse about the 2A that says Jesus is returning and we are gathered to Him. Matt 24:31 is a gathering during the 2A, but it is NOT to Him. How do I know that? That verse does not say we are gathered to Him. It's that simple. In fact, you can't tell me where that gathering ends up. We therefore can't say it is to Him. All verses that are a gathering to Him, say so. That means all the verses that say we are gathered to Him are ONLY about the rapture. That is a fact that I challenge you to disprove.

You might review post #53 on that.

The rule for all correct interpretation of prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8) is that they must agree with NT apostolic teaching because the Bible does not contradict itself.
So to be Biblically correct, understanding of prophetic riddles not clearly spoken cannot be in disagreement with clear NT apostolic teaching.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Greek scholars tried to find out from KJV in the 1600's, why they made a sea change in 2 Th 2:3 by replacing "departing" or "departure" with "falling away" when they mean the opposite in Greek. KJV, to this day, has not accounted for why they made that change. They are definitely hiding something. Try finding out from KJV yourself. If it's all innocent, why won't they give their rationale for the change?

Perhaps I'm missing some context, but what is a "sea change"?

And the translators of the KJV didn't replace anything with anything, they were translating the word apostasia in a way consistent with how the word is used.

What you seem to be ignoring is how "departing" can relate to the sense of leaving or abandonment. If I depart from the faith, if I depart from Christ, that's a departure, that's a departing--an apostasy. Which is consistent with how the word is used.

Instead you latch onto a single possible translation, "departing", and then bring all your assumptions and presuppositions with you, and then violently force them into the word, and then claim anyone and anything that doesn't agree with you is part of some great cover-up to hide the truth.

That, frankly, is ridiculous and no one should take what you are saying seriously.

Here is how St. Jerome's Vulgate translates 1 Thessalonians 2:3

"Ne quis vos seducat ullo modo: quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum, et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis,"

Jerome translates apostasia as discessio, a withdrawal, conceptually identical with "departing" in the sense of leaving someone or something, of turning away, etc.

The Peshitta translates apostasia as maruwt, "rebellion", from the adjective maruwd "rebellious" "unruly".

ܠܡܳܐ ܐ݈ܢܳܫ ܢܰܛܥܶܝܟ݂ܽܘܢ ܒ݁ܚܰܕ݂ ܡܶܢ ܐܶܣܟ݁ܺܡܺܝܢ ܡܶܛܽܠ ܕ݁ܶܐܢ ܠܳܐ ܬ݁ܺܐܬ݂ܶܐ ܠܽܘܩܕ݂ܰܡ ܡܳܪܽܘܕ݂ܽܘܬ݂ܳܐ ܘܢܶܬ݂ܓ݁ܠܶܐ ܒ݁ܰܪܢܳܫܳܐ ܕ݁ܰܚܛܺܝܬ݂ܳܐ ܒ݁ܪܶܗ ܕ݁ܰܐܒ݂ܕ݁ܳܢܳܐ ܀

In the 18th century Russian translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 we see

Да никтоже вас прельстит ни по единому же образу: яко аще не приидет отступление прежде, и открыется человек беззакония, сын погибели,

The word is otstuplénije, and it means "retreat" or "digression", that is, to abandon one's position, to turn away from one's obligations, etc.

Seriously, just look at how apostasia is used/translated in various languages.

You are cherry-picking your favorite way to translate it, and ignoring the nuance and how the word is actually used, and how readers of the Bible have always understood its meaning--and how it has been translated, and the intent behind the word and the translation choices in Bible translations across time, languages, and cultures.

If there is some great conspiracy to hide "the truth", then it's been going on since Jesus' earthly ministry, and you're going to have to blame Jesus, the Apostles, and the entire Christian Church of every time and place.

-CryptoLutheran