Eschatology: The "Left Behind" narrative is unbiblical

[ViaCrucis]

The word used in the Greek manuscripts of 2 Th 2:3 is apostasia (apostasy), which meaning is "falling away," and which the KJV translated correctly.

This can be confirmed by checking this against the way the Septuagint uses apostasia when translating Hebrew terms in the Old Testament; where apostasia pretty consistently refers to turning away from God, resisting God, rejecting God, etc.

It consistently, in the context of religion, refers to a falling away from the faith or a rejection of God's will and way. That's what it always means in Scripture.

Apostasia is always a departure from God/faith. Apostasia, quite literally, means "stand apart from".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I disagree with your assessment. Apostasy means a departing from the truth or forsaking the faith, according to other Biblical contexts, and according to the lexicons I have access to. Therefore, the KJV and all 12 other translations I have access to are correct in saying it's a falling away (from the truth), an apostasy, a rebellion, etc., and it is in the context of "the man of lawlessness". Therefore "departing" in the Geneva Bible means departing from the truth or departing from the law of God, since "man of sin" and "man of lawlessness" is equivalent.

2 Th 2:1: ... by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

John 14:3: ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ...

1 Th 4:16 -17: ... the Lord himself will descend ... 17 ... we .. will be caught up ... in the clouds to meet the Lord ...

Those verses are about the rapture. In 2 Th 2:1, Paul needed to clarify a big misunderstanding by his Thessalonian flock, about the rapture. Therefore, the context of rapture in 2 Th 2:1 extends to verses 2 and 3.

The two main definitions of "apostasia" are (1) defection/revolt, and (2) departure/disappearance. Paul wrote in Greek. Those are the Greek definitions expertly translated into English by renowned Greek translators, Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott. In definition (2), departure is associated only with disappearance. Therefore, departure in apostasia's second definition is about physical departure, as in a rapture.

2 Th 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible):

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

The ending words of verse 3 (and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition) are about Rev 6:1-2, because those verses start the Trib. Paul therefore meant in verses 1-3: We need to address the rapture (verse 1). Do not be deceived, as by a fraudulent letter made to appear to be from us, saying that the Trib has started (verse 2). The Trib will not come until after the rapture (verse 3), then the Trib will start (Rev 6:1-2).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The word used in the Greek manuscripts of 2 Th 2:3 is apostasia (apostasy), which meaning is "falling away," and which the KJV translated correctly.

Clare, you are partially correct. Apostasia has five definitions, but the two main definitions will serve our purposes.

In the Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon, apostasia's first two definitions are (1) defection/revolt, and (2) departure/disappearance. Please note that "departure" in definition #2 is associated with "disappearance." Now, we know what "disappearance" means, therefore, "departure" can only mean "physical departure." This is not my opinion. These are facts of Greek translation to English.

Now, definition #1 does relate to "falling away." Therefore, we need to consult the text where "apostasia" is found, to see which definition is applicable.

Let's run through 2 Th 2:1-3 in older Bibles:

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

In that verse, Paul is merely raising the topic of the rapture. The reason he had to do that is, his Thessalonian flock had received a fraudulent letter, making it appear to be from Paul, stating that they had missed the rapture and that the Trib had started. Please verse 2 below.

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

Those are Paul's words about how his flock had been deceived. Let's look at verse 3.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

"That day" mentioned in verse 3 concerns "the day of the Lord" mentioned in verse 2. The DOL (Day of the Lord) starts with the Trib. Paul then said "that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, .."

With verse 1 citing the rapture, the context of rapture continues through verse 3. Therefore, of the first two definitions of apostasia, only definition #2 applies: departure/disappearance.

In 2 Th 2:1-3, Paul was factually talking about the pre-Trib rapture. However, this is only clear in early Bibles that have never been corrupted. The KJV came out in 1611 as the first Bible to use definition #1 of apostasia in 2 Th 2:3. That's what started all the Bible versions since then, using definition #1 of apostasia, which factually does not fit the context.

Paul had prior writings on the rapture: 1 Th 1:10, 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Th 5:9. Paul had never spoke about a 'falling away" in his prior letters. He repeatedly spoke of the rapture.

Lastly, the "falling away" in the Bible occurs in Matt 24:10. If you research where that verse falls on the timeline, it's well into the Trib, but before the midpoint. Therefore, the "falling away" can't occur in 2 Th 2:3 because verse 3 occurs before the Trib, just as Paul said in verse 3. How can a falling away that occurs near the midpoint of the timeline, be said to occur before the Trib? KJV got it very wrong, and that's very unfortunate. But know this: KJV has also never been willing to say why they made that sea change in verse 3. They are hiding something. Thank God for early Bibles.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This can be confirmed by checking this against the way the Septuagint uses apostasia when translating Hebrew terms in the Old Testament; where apostasia pretty consistently refers to turning away from God, resisting God, rejecting God, etc.

It consistently, in the context of religion, refers to a falling away from the faith or a rejection of God's will and way. That's what it always means in Scripture.

Apostasia is always a departure from God/faith. Apostasia, quite literally, means "stand apart from".

-CryptoLutheran

Please read my reply to Clare73. You can have a hundred occurrences of apostasia in the Bible, with 99 meaning falling away. What Paul meant in 2 Th 2:1-3 provably only means "rapture." We must examine the context. I go through the context in detail for Clare73.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The word used in the Greek manuscripts of 2 Th 2:3 is apostasia (apostasy), which meaning is "falling away," and which the KJV translated correctly.

Clare, this my write-up on why the pre-Trib rapture will be the next prophesied event. Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

In the 2A (2nd Advent), Jesus fulfills a descension from Heaven to Earth. A main feature of that descension is it will be in full view of the people on Earth (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). There will be billions of unbelievers on Earth who will see Jesus, and they will mourn (Matt 24:30). Jesus will also not be by Himself (Matt 24:31).

Acts 1:11 holds a very important guideline for the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ. Here is the complete verse 11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11 is about how ("the same way") that the NEXT return of Jesus will occur. That return must follow the reverse-sequence of His ascension. The ascension started when Jesus was in the view of believers, only (His disciples) (Acts 1:9). He ascended by Himself. He was then behind clouds, then in Heaven.

The reverse-sequence will dictate the way of His NEXT return. Jesus will descend from Heaven by Himself, behind clouds (out of view of the wicked world below), then only into the view of believers. That is the reverse-sequence that aligns with Acts 1:11. Again, Acts 1:11 is about "the way" Jesus ascended, not wherefrom.

It is impossible for that reverse-sequence to apply to the 2A. The 2A starts with Jesus ON CLOUDS and in full view of the whole world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Therefore, right at the start of the 2A, Jesus will not be in alignment with Acts 1:11. The full proof of His misalignment with Acts 1:11, Jesus will be ON CLOUDS (not behind clouds); He's not by Himself (Matt 24:31); and He will be in full view of billions of unbelievers. That's all perfect for the 2A, but it doesn't align with Acts 1:11. Therefore, it is Scripturally impossible for the 2A to be the NEXT return of Jesus Christ.

Only the pre-Trib rapture fits the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. That reverse sequence would be: descension by Himself, behind clouds, then only into the view of believers.

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus descends by Himself. Verse 16 very importantly makes it crystal clear that Jesus will descend by Himself because He ascended by Himself (Acts 1:9). In 1 Th 4:17, we won't see Jesus until we pass through clouds and meet Him in the air. This is very important: we have to pass through clouds before we can see Jesus. That substantiates the fact that Jesus is BEHIND CLOUDS in His descension, exactly as dictated by the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. In the pre-Trib rapture, Jesus will descend by Himself, behind clouds and into the view of believers, only.

My friend, those are the Scriptural facts of the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ.

God bless!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I disagree with your assessment. Apostasy means a departing from the truth or forsaking the faith, according to other Biblical contexts, and according to the lexicons I have access to. Therefore, the KJV and all 12 other translations I have access to are correct in saying it's a falling away (from the truth), an apostasy, a rebellion, etc., and it is in the context of "the man of lawlessness". Therefore "departing" in the Geneva Bible means departing from the truth or departing from the law of God, since "man of sin" and "man of lawlessness" is equivalent.

The data below will definitively prove why the next prophesied event WILL BE the pre-Trib rapture:

In the 2A (2nd Advent), Jesus fulfills a descension from Heaven to Earth. A main feature of that descension is it will be in full view of the people on Earth (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). There will be billions of unbelievers on Earth who will see Jesus, and they will mourn (Matt 24:30). Jesus will also not be by Himself (Matt 24:31).

Acts 1:11 holds a very important guideline for the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ. Here is the complete verse 11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11 is about how ("the same way") that the NEXT return of Jesus will occur. That return must follow the reverse-sequence of His ascension. The ascension started when Jesus was in the view of believers, only (His disciples) (Acts 1:9). He ascended by Himself. He was then behind clouds, then in Heaven.

The reverse-sequence will dictate the way of His NEXT return. Jesus will descend from Heaven by Himself, behind clouds (out of view of the wicked world below), then only into the view of believers. That is the reverse-sequence that aligns with Acts 1:11. Again, Acts 1:11 is about "the way" Jesus ascended, not wherefrom.

It is impossible for that reverse-sequence to apply to the 2A. The 2A starts with Jesus ON CLOUDS and in full view of the whole world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Therefore, right at the start of the 2A, Jesus will not be in alignment with Acts 1:11. The full proof of His misalignment with Acts 1:11: Jesus will be ON CLOUDS (not BEHIND clouds); He's not by Himself (Matt 24:31); and He will be in full view of billions of unbelievers, as they mourn (Matt 24:30). That's all perfect for the 2A, but it doesn't align with Acts 1:11. Therefore, it is Scripturally impossible for the 2A to be the NEXT return of Jesus Christ.

Only the pre-Trib rapture fits the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. That reverse sequence would be: descension from Heaven by Himself, behind clouds, then only into the view of believers.

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus descends by Himself. Verse 16 makes it crystal clear that Jesus will descend by Himself, in total alignment with His ascension by Himself (Acts 1:9). In 1 Th 4:17, we won't see Jesus until we pass through clouds and meet Him in the air. This is very important: we have to pass through clouds before we can see Jesus. That substantiates the fact that Jesus is BEHIND CLOUDS in His descension, exactly as dictated by the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. In the pre-Trib rapture, Jesus will descend by Himself, behind clouds and into the view of believers, only.

My friend, those are the Scriptural facts of the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ.

God bless!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This can be confirmed by checking this against the way the Septuagint uses apostasia when translating Hebrew terms in the Old Testament; where apostasia pretty consistently refers to turning away from God, resisting God, rejecting God, etc.

It consistently, in the context of religion, refers to a falling away from the faith or a rejection of God's will and way. That's what it always means in Scripture.

Apostasia is always a departure from God/faith. Apostasia, quite literally, means "stand apart from".

-CryptoLutheran

The KJV didn't do any translating. They were hell-bent on stamping out the pre-Trib rapture. They intentionally altered 2 Th 2:3. The most convincing evidence of foul play is the KJV won't, to this day, say why they made that change. Now, if they were so sure it was proper, why don't they just say so?

 

[tdidymas]

The data below will definitively prove why the next prophesied event WILL BE the pre-Trib rapture:

In the 2A (2nd Advent), Jesus fulfills a descension from Heaven to Earth. A main feature of that descension is it will be in full view of the people on Earth (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). There will be billions of unbelievers on Earth who will see Jesus, and they will mourn (Matt 24:30). Jesus will also not be by Himself (Matt 24:31).

Acts 1:11 holds a very important guideline for the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ. Here is the complete verse 11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11 is about how ("the same way") that the NEXT return of Jesus will occur. That return must follow the reverse-sequence of His ascension. The ascension started when Jesus was in the view of believers, only (His disciples) (Acts 1:9). He ascended by Himself. He was then behind clouds, then in Heaven.

The reverse-sequence will dictate the way of His NEXT return. Jesus will descend from Heaven by Himself, behind clouds (out of view of the wicked world below), then only into the view of believers. That is the reverse-sequence that aligns with Acts 1:11. Again, Acts 1:11 is about "the way" Jesus ascended, not wherefrom.

It is impossible for that reverse-sequence to apply to the 2A. The 2A starts with Jesus ON CLOUDS and in full view of the whole world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Therefore, right at the start of the 2A, Jesus will not be in alignment with Acts 1:11. The full proof of His misalignment with Acts 1:11, Jesus will be ON CLOUDS (not behind clouds); He's not by Himself (Matt 24:31); and He will be in full view of billions of unbelievers. That's all perfect for the 2A, but it doesn't align with Acts 1:11. Therefore, it is Scripturally impossible for the 2A to be the NEXT return of Jesus Christ.

Only the pre-Trib rapture fits the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. That reverse sequence would be: descension by Himself, behind clouds, then only into the view of believers.

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus descends by Himself. Verse 16 very importantly makes it crystal clear that Jesus will descend by Himself because He ascended by Himself (Acts 1:9). In 1 Th 4:17, we won't see Jesus until we pass through clouds and meet Him in the air. This is very important: we have to pass through clouds before we can see Jesus. That substantiates the fact that Jesus is BEHIND CLOUDS in His descension, exactly as dictated by the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. In the pre-Trib rapture, Jesus will descend by Himself, behind clouds and into the view of believers, only.

My friend, those are the Scriptural facts of the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ.

God bless!

If you think this is "proof", you just go on believing it, but for me it's so far from convincing, I would call it a very ignorant argument. There is nothing in the text that indicates he is hiding behind clouds. It appears to me your "scriptural facts" are nothing but conjecture, and in conflict with 2 Thes. 2. If you examine the text carefully, it puts Jesus' COMING and our GATHERING to Him as a single event.

 

[tdidymas]

2 Th 2:1: ... by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

John 14:3: ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ...

1 Th 4:16 -17: ... the Lord himself will descend ... 17 ... we .. will be caught up ... in the clouds to meet the Lord ...

Those verses are about the rapture. In 2 Th 2:1, Paul needed to clarify a big misunderstanding by his Thessalonian flock, about the rapture. Therefore, the context of rapture in 2 Th 2:1 extends to verses 2 and 3.

The two main definitions of "apostasia" are (1) defection/revolt, and (2) departure/disappearance. Paul wrote in Greek. Those are the Greek definitions expertly translated into English by renowned Greek translators, Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott. In definition (2), departure is associated only with disappearance. Therefore, departure in apostasia's second definition is about physical departure, as in a rapture.

2 Th 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible):

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

The ending words of verse 3 (and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition) are about Rev 6:1-2, because those verses start the Trib. Paul therefore meant in verses 1-3: We need to address the rapture (verse 1). Do not be deceived, as by a fraudulent letter made to appear to be from us, saying that the Trib has started (verse 2). The Trib will not come until after the rapture (verse 3), then the Trib will start (Rev 6:1-2).

"That day" refers to the coming of the Lord (and our gathering to Him), not the trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

"That day" refers to the coming of the Lord (and our gathering to Him), not the trib.

2 Peter 3:10 (NIV): But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. ----- The Day of the Lord is over several years. It starts with the Trib.

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. ----- Don't be fooled that the Trib has started: the Day of the Lord (Trib).

2 Th 2:3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. ----- The Trib will not come, as the rapture will occur first.

Those verses truly mean what I wrote. Read them and you will see.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

"That day" refers to the coming of the Lord (and our gathering to Him), not the trib.

Your premise is faulty because 2 Th 2:1-3 are about the pre-Trib rapture. Even 2 Th 2:1 starts with mention of the rapture: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto Him.

In the 2A, there is no "assembling unto Him." Also, Matt 24:31 does not say "assembling unto him." It is unknown where that gathering goes. There isn't any "assembling unto Him" until the gatherings in Matt 25:35-46.

 

[JulieB67]

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. ----- The Day of the Lord is over several years. It starts with the Trib.

The day of the Lord does not start the tribulation. It ends the tribulation starting with Christ's return. That's what 2nd Thes 2 is all about. Our gathering back together will not happen until the falling away (apostasy no matter how much you deny it) and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. Christ will not return until that happens. It's a warning that is a 2nd witness to Christ teachings in the gospels.


Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The day of the Lord does not start the tribulation. It ends the tribulation starting with Christ's return.


Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

Paul says the Day of the Lord starts the Trib: 1 Th 5:1-3 (NIV): Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

 

[JulieB67]

While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Paul says the Day of the Lord starts the Trib

It does not state that.

God's wrath is not the same thing as the tribulation. People will be thinking peace and safety and then bam, the true Christ returns which brings that sudden destruction. He will plant his feet upon the mount of olives which will cleave/break forth/tear and split apart. The destruction will cause islands and mountains to move out of their places. People will be running for places to hide but they cannot escape. That has nothing to do with Satan's tribulation which is all about signs and wonders/trickery and people worshipping him. Again, read that passage again, they will be thinking peace and safety. We won't have true peace until Christ returns.

Why are they thinking peace and safety? Because of this-

Daniel 8:23 "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and under standing dark sentences, shall stand up."

Daniel 8:24 "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy People."

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

That's how he destroys -by peace. Only it's a fake peace because he's the fake.

They will have bought into that peace and safety.

Why would sudden destruction start the tribulation? That's not how it works. God's wrath ends the tribulation.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It does not state that.

God's wrath is not the same thing as the tribulation. People will be thinking peace and safety and then bam, the true Christ returns which brings that sudden destruction. He will plant his feet upon the mount of olives which will cleave/break forth/tear and split apart. The destruction will cause islands and mountains to move out of their places. People will be running for places to hide but they cannot escape. That has nothing to do with Satan's tribulation which is all about signs and wonders/trickery and people worshipping him. Again, read that passage again, they will be thinking peace and safety. We won't have true peace until Christ returns.

Why are they thinking peace and safety? Because of this-

Daniel 8:23 "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and under standing dark sentences, shall stand up."

Daniel 8:24 "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy People."

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

That's how he destroys -by peace. Only it's a fake peace because he's the fake.

They will have bought into that peace and safety.

Why would sudden destruction start the tribulation? That's not how it works. God's wrath ends the tribulation.

You need to look at 1 Th 5:2-3, closer: 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Those two verses summarize the seal judgments of the Trib: Matt 24:3-8 (ESV): 3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Please read my reply to Clare73. You can have a hundred occurrences of apostasia in the Bible, with 99 meaning falling away. What Paul meant in 2 Th 2:1-3 provably only means "rapture." We must examine the context. I go through the context in detail for Clare73.

No. No it doesn't mean "rapture". You don't get to just make up new definitions to words and change the meaning of Holy Scripture just because it benefits your personal and privately held beliefs.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The KJV didn't do any translating. They were hell-bent on stamping out the pre-Trib rapture. They intentionally altered 2 Th 2:3. The most convincing evidence of foul play is the KJV won't, to this day, say why they made that change. Now, if they were so sure it was proper, why don't they just say so?

The KJV did a perfectly fine job translating apostasia.

There was no such thing as "the pre-Trib rapture" when the KJV was being translated. That particular belief wouldn't exist for several more centuries until it was invented in the 1800's.

This is like trying to claim that the KJV was trying to stamp out research into artificial intelligence. Nobody in the 1600's had any idea what that was, neither did they have any idea what a "pre-Trib rapture" was. If you took a time machine to the 1600s and tried to talk to anyone about a "pre-Trib rapture" they'd look at you funny because they wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you think this is "proof", you just go on believing it, but for me it's so far from convincing, I would call it a very ignorant argument. There is nothing in the text that indicates he is hiding behind clouds. It appears to me your "scriptural facts" are nothing but conjecture, and in conflict with 2 Thes. 2. If you examine the text carefully, it puts Jesus' COMING and our GATHERING to Him as a single event.

Using the same methodology he used, I could probably "prove" that Jesus was crucified twice. All I need to do is reference one passage that mentions the Lord was crucified, and then reference another text that He was crucified, and claim two different crucifixions.

The more obvious and natural reading, however, is that all mentions of our Lord's death on the cross refer to that one and single moment where our Lord was nailed to the cross, bore our suffering, and died for our sins. Once and for all.

Likewise, the most obvious and natural reading of Scripture shows us that all references to our Lord's coming, His Parousia, is the one and same event, not two, not three, not fifteen, but one.

Which is, of course, what literally all Christians have believed since the beginning--right up until some in modern times began to believe certain doctrines, invented out of thin air, in the 1800's, and then later Christians--already believing these things--tried to find proof-texts to support their position. Not unlike the way that Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and other sectarians have tried to come up with a doctrine, and then mine the Bible for prooftexts (ignoring context and all common sense).

I'm not saying those who believe in the "left behind" stuff are the same as Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons; but it's the same methodology of ignoring the plain meaning of Scripture and trying to make the Bible say what they want it to say. It's a terribly common problem among many Christians across many different backgrounds, and even the most well-meaning student of the Bible can fall into that trap. Which is why we must always--all of us--be vigilant and diligent in applying good hermeneutical and exegetical principles to our study and analysis of God's word.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No. No it doesn't mean "rapture". You don't get to just make up new definitions to words and change the meaning of Holy Scripture just because it benefits your personal and privately held beliefs.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm not making up anything. Paul wrote 1 Th 1:10 (KJV): And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. ----- That's about us being "delivered" from the coming wrath. In the Trib, the wrath of God begins no later than the 2nd seal. Here's the 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (TLB): This time a red horse rode out. Its rider was given a long sword and the authority to banish peace and bring anarchy to the earth; war and killing broke out everywhere. ----- Wars are a form of God's wrath: Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals. ----- Therefore, God's wrath begins in the Trib no later than the 2nd seal. What Paul was saying in 1 Th 1:10 is we will be raptured before the Trib, because God's wrath starts on day 1.

Jesus was speaking in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. ----- In Rev 3:10, what did Jesus mean by "I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth?

Please note in Rev 3:10 the last eight words: to try those who dwell on the earth. You know what "try" means. That's obviously a very condemning term. Romans 8:1 (ESV): There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. ------ In Rev 3:10, Jesus described those who will be "tried" as "those who dwell on the earth." The phrase, "those who dwell on the earth" is very demeaning. This is how those folks are described in Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. ------ In the Trib, as of Rev 11:10, those who dwell on the earth are hardcore unbelievers who have rejected God. We are not going to be "those who dwell on the earth." We will be raptured before the Trib, because that's what Jesus means in Rev 3:10.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The KJV did a perfectly fine job translating apostasia.

There was no such thing as "the pre-Trib rapture" when the KJV was being translated. That particular belief wouldn't exist for several more centuries until it was invented in the 1800's.

This is like trying to claim that the KJV was trying to stamp out research into artificial intelligence. Nobody in the 1600's had any idea what that was, neither did they have any idea what a "pre-Trib rapture" was. If you took a time machine to the 1600s and tried to talk to anyone about a "pre-Trib rapture" they'd look at you funny because they wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about.

-CryptoLutheran

If the KJV is perfect in their translation, why do they not answer why they made the sea change that they did in 2 Th 2:3, in 1611? Major Greek scholars have inquired of KJV regarding 2 Th 2:3. KJV won't answer. KJV in modern times, won't answer anybody. They are definitely hiding something. They are hiding their corruption in the editing of 2 Th 2:3.

Let me tell you why the KJV is wrong. First, Paul, was truly writing about a fraudulent letter his Thessalonian flock received. That letter was made to look like it was from Paul. It said his flock had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. Paul corrected his flock with 2 Th 2:1-3. Here are those verses in early Bibles, long before the KJV came along:

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Apostasia has five definitions. Per the Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon, the two main definitions are (1) defection/revolt; and (2) departure/disappearance. There is no question that the first definition relates to "falling away." In the second definition, "departure" is associated with "disappearance." Therefore, in Greek, "apostasia" as "departure" means "physical departure," as in "disappearance." The context of 2 Th 2:1 is rapture. Paul raised the topic of the rapture for clarification. The other two verses prove Paul was saying the Trib hasn't started because the departure (disappearance) ----- rapture ----- happens first.

Lastly, KJV nor can anyone else prove that a falling away occurs in the timeframe of 2 Th 2:3. Paul never spoke of a falling away prior to 2 Th 2. He certainly didn't mean one in verse 3. Paul had earlier wrote verses about the rapture starting in 1 Th 1:10 and 1 Th 4:16-17. Jesus said the falling away occurs in Matt 24:10 (ESV): And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. ----- On the timeline of the Trib, Matt 24:10 occurs well into the Trib. The context of 2 Th 2:3 expires immediately before the Trib, per its ending words. There are two revelations of the AC: Rev 6:1-2 and Matt 24:15.

The ending words to 2 Th 2:3 mean the start of the Trib, as in Rev 6:1-2. Paul meant in 2 Th 2:3 that the rapture will occur before the Trib, then the Trib starts. In Rev 6:1-2, that is the first revelation of the AC. The AC is the rider on the white horse. He will ride a white horse to deceive people into believing he's Jesus. Jesus will ride a white horse in Rev 19:11 (ESV): Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. ----- At the midpoint of the timeline, the AC will prove to Israel that he's a double-crosser (Matt 24:15).

In 2 Th 2:3, Paul meant the rapture will occur before the Trib. If you want to see why the rapture will occur as the next prophesied event, just let me know.

God bless!