Transgenderism Is A Real Threat To Christians

[Larniavc]

You answered your own question in your earlier post. One cannot reject what they do not know.

Close. One does not have to be Christian to reject Christianity; only informed of Christian beliefs.

I think on balance and on looking at the definition of reject as to ‘dismiss as inadequate, unacceptable, or faulty‘. I have to agree with you.

The vast majority of people in the world reject Christian dogma.

 

[dlamberth]

No, honestly you should. This site was meant to bring Christians together. And in the process, it brought in many non-Christians for people to talk to and potentially convert. I joined during that time. It wasn't always friendly, but it was friendlier than it is now and the discussion was lively.

I feel this site lost something when part of the forms became Christian only, and then only for the individual sects of Christianity. You learn nothing in an echo chamber.

Agreed!

 

[Bradskii]

But what do you mean? How do you 'adamantly' reject Christian beliefs?

P1 "hey you, yes you. Have you heard about Jesus....?"
P2 "sorry, not interested".

Q1 "hey you, yes you. You better stop being gay because you'll go to Hell...."
Q2 "sorry, not interested".

Is that an adamant rejection?

That definitely is a lack of interest rather than a rejection. But if someone puts forward an argument for any religious proposition, then you can certainly reject the argument. Which is really my position. Does God exist? Well, I have rejected all the arguments I have been given for His existence. So until I hear one with which I agree, the answer is...no.

 

[dlamberth]

I like this, but it leads me to think that "natural law" is simply God manifested in the form of physical reality, and misinterpreted by us humans as merely 'natural' laws, when they are in fact an insight into the 'divine' itself.

However I'm fairly certain that mainstream Christianity would take a dim view of the idea that physical reality is in any sense a 'manifestation' of God. Sounds too pantheistic. Creation of God... yes. Manifestation of God... no. However, if it is in fact a manifestation of God's will, then in what sense isn't it a manifestation of God Himself? Are 'God' and 'God's will' really two different things?

Gonna need some serious apologetics to straighten me out on this one.

I think what your pointing towards is panentheism rather than pantheism. You will find that many of the Christian Mystics lean heavily towards panentheism. I'm told by those in the Orthodox traditions that they also have a bit of panenthesim in their spirituality. And you would be correct to call me a panentheist as well.

 

[stevevw]

You said,

"As the new Ideology assumes there is no innate order to human sex and gender it logically follows that diagnosis and treatment will follow this idea that subjective identity is the measure of ones sex and gender and basically everything in life."

I was merely pointing out that this was false. If the "new ideology" assumed that there is no innate order then proponents would know a priori that they would not be able to diagnose and treat.

Correct. So it is important to know what they are.

OK I see what you mean. Well unfortunately a new diagnosis and treatment has come along with the ideology. Now treatment is limited to certain new citeria such as the New No Conversion therapy laws. This restricts the investigation into other possible causes of gender dysphoria such as past trauma or psychological problems and assumes the patient is trans. So many specialists hands are tied as to what disagnosis and treatment they can give.

This new definition has also infiltrated into schools, academia and other aspects of health where ideas that make biological sex a spectrum and gender identity a real thing that trumps biological sex. So its actually influencing diagnosis and treatment by changing the fundemental assumptions about what sex and gender is.

 

[o_mlly]

You learn nothing in an echo chamber.

When outside is shrill nonsense then for those who do not yet have the ability to critically think, ie., children, the "echo" chamber is a necessary space.

As it relates to this thread, the delusional and vocal "Trans" minority are pushing their unreal ideas into our institutions in an effort, as the OP states, to normalize their abnormal behavior following on the success of the LGBQ's. Do we tell the bulimic or anorexic that they are, as they think, too fat? No, we counsel them as to the truth in an effort to help them abandon their delusions.

I read this somewhere: "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion." Do you believe that that is true?

 

[Paulos23]

When outside is shrill nonsense then for those who do not yet have the ability to critically think, ie., children, the "echo" chamber is a necessary space.

As it relates to this thread, the delusional and vocal "Trans" minority are pushing their unreal ideas into our institutions in an effort, as the OP states, to normalize their abnormal behavior following on the success of the LGBQ's. Do we tell the bulimic or anorexic that they are, as they think, too fat? No, we counsel them as to the truth in an effort to help them abandon their delusions.

I read this somewhere: "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion." Do you believe that that is true?

If you read my sig, you will see that I do. But I think we have two different ideas of reality, but that is beside the point.

I like hearing the other side, as much as I disagree with them. I try to understand why they believe the way they do. That is impossible to do in an echo chamber. You are right, there is a time to remove oneself from argument to think, but everyone here is expressing their opinion and experience. That is not an assault on you, it is part of the form.

 

[o_mlly]

That is not an assault on you, it is part of the form.

But I think we have two different ideas of reality, but that is beside the point.

First, promoting deluded ideas about reality are not an assault on me; they are an assault on the truth.

Secondly, since reality is singular and Independent of what anyone thinks, that is not beside, but rather, is the point. Sanity rather than just Christianity is being assaulted.

 

[Bradskii]

When outside is shrill nonsense then for those who do not yet have the ability to critically think, ie., children, the "echo" chamber is a necessary space.

He was talking about this forum. But you're exactly right (I highlighted the relevant phrase).

 

[Bradskii]

I read this somewhere: "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion." Do you believe that that is true?

You don't know what Carl was actually talking about..?

 

[jayem]

I'm getting into this thread kinda late. No one would question that Down Syndrome is not a real, genetic variant. Gender dysphoria is the same--it's a real, neurophysiological variant. The exact mechanism has not yet been identified. But it's postulated that fetal exposure to hormones in utero, genetic and environmental factors affect the developing brain. With the result that the anatomical sex of the newborn is opposite to the neurological sex of the brain. From early childhood, affected persons know that something is wrong. If they're treated as boys, they know--deep down--they're girls. This incongruity, if not recognized, is devastating to their mental and physical health. More info in the link:

Gender dysphoria Information | Mount Sinai - New York

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm going to break apart your post very intentionally. Hopefully you'll follow me here.

I'm getting into this thread kinda late.

Hi you!

No one would question that Down Syndrome is not a real, genetic variant.

Yes, it's an actual genetic disorder, caused by a supernumerary Chromosome 21.

Gender dysphoria is the same

Since when? If it's a genetic disorder share with us which genes cause it....

we know factually what causes DS.

The exact mechanism has not yet been identified.

You win!

Not been identified means that "postulations" are as worthless as Congress...

And that's just honest.

Guessing is guessing, real and actual clinical gender dysphoria is closest to phantom limb syndrome. Which puts the disease squarely in the brain, if it is in fact a disease process (which I'm not convinced of personally, it's treated psychiatrically because it has no disease process)

However, as a rare disease lottery winner myself (CRPS type 2) , I can confidently say the brain is an area of the body we know nothing about medically. Nothing. We've extensively documented my disease since the civil war and all we've really managed to do is think of different things to call it.

A large number of CRPS patients kill themselves because the pain is so severe. I personally sat every day for 6 months with a gun in my hand trying to make through the next 60 seconds (every 60 seconds) without blowing my brains out waiting for a diagnosis and then treatment.

Yet, it's ultimately the brain, and we are clueless. Clueless. Clueless. Clueless.

I'll share with you this post from earlier in the thread.

Transgenderism Is A Real Threat To Christians

I once asked a monk how those in heaven will be able to deal with having lost so many to hell, including those whom we may have loved personally. His response was that they will be forgotten to us. We will have no recollection of them at all - we won't care about them. I think he was right...

www.christianforums.com

^^^ both the video and the paper are of interest to the thread, if you'd like to read them.

Happy to talk again after you do.

 

[stevevw]

I'm getting into this thread kinda late. No one would question that Down Syndrome is not a real, genetic variant. Gender dysphoria is the same--it's a real, neurophysiological variant.

Yes but its not a normal human variant. Down Syndrome is not a normal human development but an anomely that has happened during development. The idea that humans can come in different variants because of development problems is unsupported.

The exact mechanism has not yet been identified. But it's postulated that fetal exposure to hormones in utero, genetic and environmental factors affect the developing brain. With the result that the anatomical sex of the newborn is opposite to the neurological sex of the brain. From early childhood, affected persons know that something is wrong. If they're treated as boys, they know--deep down--they're girls. This incongruity, if not recognized, is devastating to their mental and physical health. More info in the link:

Gender dysphoria Information | Mount Sinai - New York

Yes there is research that points to brain sex hormones being out of sync with physical development. But gender dysphoria can be a psychological problem as well where the person has reason to feel uncomfortable with their body, similar to anorexia and with therapy many can align back with their bodies and often they end up being gay or lesbian rather than Trans.

Thats the problem that proper disagnosis and treatment has not been allowed. The same ideology that disallows therapy for gender dyphoria under conversion therapy laws also denies that the sex hormone imbalance is an anomely in development. Heres a ethical dilemma. If medical tech comes up with a way to rebalance the sex hormones with the body do you think this should be a treatment option.

 

[partinobodycular]

However, as a rare disease lottery winner myself (CRPS type 2) , I can confidently say the brain is an area of the body we know nothing about medically. Nothing. We've extensively documented my disease since the civil war and all we've really managed to do is think of different things to call it.

Sorry, but I don't see how this helps your case at all. You, more than anyone, should be aware that regardless of the cause, the effects of 'Gender Dysphoria', like those of CRPS are very, very real. Why should I have empathy for one group, but not for the other?

During those six months of agony, if someone had suggested a treatment short of putting a gun to your head, would you have tried it?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Sorry, but I don't see how this helps your case at all. You, more than anyone, should be aware that regardless of the cause, the effects of 'Gender Dysphoria', like those of CRPS are very, very real. Why should I have empathy for one group, but not for the other?

During those six months of agony, if someone had suggested a treatment short of putting a gun to your head, would you have tried it?

You've been in this thread and know what I'm arguing about and for ..

This isn't a "lack of empathy" on my part, in fact, my position is nothing if not empathetic.

I don't care what adults do. I really don't, unless they are hurting someone else.

And in this case, a great many people are being harmed, many irreparably... And they are kids who need adults to protect them. Which is who I'd like to see the government step in to protect, these kids.

 

[partinobodycular]

And they are kids who need adults to protect them. Which is who I'd like to see the government step in to protect, these kids.

This is where you and I are in complete agreement. The problem that I have is in assuming that it's all just some giant 'woke' conspiracy. I can't do that. I have to assume that there are people who know better than I do, and that there are kids who'll be irrevocably harmed no matter what we do. But that doesn't mean that we should avoid one method of treatment simply because we find it to be morally reprehensible. This is one of those cases where there likely is no right answer, and no matter what we do, we're probably damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I had a sister with diabetic neuropathy. Eventually they had to prescribe her opioids to control the pain. Which of course she became addicted to. And it was withdrawal from the opioids that led to her attempted suicide. Sometimes there simply are no good choices... that's life. But I'm not about to let my moral standards, or someone else's conservative beliefs, let me stand in judgment over someone else's choices... even knowing how irrevocable those choices are, and how innocent their victims.

I'm not in a position to judge, and I assume that neither are you. You however, are probably in a better position to pray... my course of action on the other hand, is simply to have faith. Apathy has it's benefits.

 

[dlamberth]

And in this case, a great many people are being harmed, many irreparably... And they are kids who need adults to protect them. Which is who I'd like to see the government step in to protect, these kids.

I'm so sorry....I have no intention of derailing this thread. I'll only make this one comment and than step back into lurking mode. But this comment I'm responding to tweaked something very deep with in me.

Way , way more children are being harmed by guns than are any transgender issues. And as we know, gun deaths of children is raising sharply. Mean while the government does nothing. Where is strikes home for me is that 3 years ago my neighbors 11 year old son shot himself in the head. Watching him grow, and his play out front it was a pretty emotional period for us. It seems to me that children gun deaths is a way more important issue than transgender concerns. I know several transgender people, none of them are trying to convert anyone to their way. And at the same time I'm unable to say the same with the gun culture I'm forced to live in. And there's also the teenage son in my spiritual community who was the sole survivor of a mass shooting. It was a shooting of jealousy done by another teen. 3 other teens died in that event. It's just that this transgender stuff to me is small potatoes compared to events that are actually killing our children and how it effects the wider community.

Please forgive my intrusion as I step back into lurk space.

 

[Paulos23]

First, promoting deluded ideas about reality are not an assault on me; they are an assault on the truth.

Secondly, since reality is singular and Independent of what anyone thinks, that is not beside, but rather, is the point. Sanity rather than just Christianity is being assaulted.

You have your idea of the truth, but it doesn't conform with my experience of reality or many others' experiences. You shout that something must not be true when people experience it daily. That speaks to me of denying reality and trying to hold on to old understandings of things.

Our understanding of reality changes with experience and time. Some truths we thought were not changeable are, and new understandings bring new ways. Not saying they would be comfortable, but one can try to either bend with the new understanding or break.

 

[BCP1928]

You've been in this thread and know what I'm arguing about and for ..

This isn't a "lack of empathy" on my part, in fact, my position is nothing if not empathetic.

I don't care what adults do. I really don't, unless they are hurting someone else.

And in this case, a great many people are being harmed, many irreparably... And they are kids who need adults to protect them. Which is who I'd like to see the government step in to protect, these kids.

How many persons under 18 diagnosed as gender dysphoric receive genital surgery?

 

[o_mlly]

You have your idea of the truth, but it doesn't conform with my experience of reality or many others' experiences.

One of us is right and the other is wrong. I have a rational argument, not based on personal feelings, but on evidential science or the lack of it.

You shout that something must not be true when people experience it daily.

Shout? Nope. Argue? Yes.

Do anorexics experience their delusions daily? Yes. Does the frequency of one's delusions really matter in determining what is real and what is not? No.

What is true is that those who are deluded feel the effects of their delusions and need help. Counseling, not hormone drugs or the surgeon's mutilating scalpel, is in order.

If an adult suffering such delusions wants to subject themselves to drugs or mutilation, then I can only pray for them. More importantly, we know that some impressionable children going through puberty may experience a transient gender dysphoria. They should be protected from those who try to normalize such transient feelings and thereby give impetus to unnecessary medical interventions.

That speaks to me of denying reality and trying to hold on to old understandings of things.

Denying reality to delusional feelings is not holding on to old understanding but practicing "democracy of the dead" (Chesterton). The novelty of ideas generated from one's feelings should be held suspect and not elevated to truth simply because those ideas are new.