Frozen embryos are ‘children,’ Alabama Supreme Court rules in couples’ wrongful death suits

Status
Not open for further replies.

o_mlly

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2021
2,082
285
Private
✟72,278.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Not to mention the issue of a state government trying to enforce "theologically based" laws.
Nope. The enlightened Alabamians understand when human life begins. The appellate court's ruling is based not on any theology but on its existing laws:

Similarly, Alabama law has recognized that human life begins at conception. See Ex parte Hicks, 153 So. 3d 53, 72 (Ala. 2014); Ex parte Ankrom, 152 So. 3d 397 (Ala. 2013); Hamilton v. Scott, 97 So. 3d 728 (Ala. 2012); Mack v. Carmack, 79 So. 3d 597 (Ala. 2011); § 26-22-2(8), Ala. Code 1975 (defining an "unborn child" as "[a]n individual organism of the species Homo sapiens from fertilization until live birth"); § 26-23A-3(10), Ala. Code 1975 (defining an "unborn child" as "[t]he offspring of any human person from conception until birth").
As for those who still think that human life before birth is just a clump cells, the farsighted Alabamians put them and their misconstrued idea in their rear-view mirror in Article I, § 36.06(b), of their Constitution:

Even if the word "child" were ambiguous, however, the Alabama Constitution would require courts to resolve the ambiguity in favor of protecting unborn life. Article I, § 36.06(b), of the Constitution of 2022 "acknowledges, declares, and affirms that it is the public policy of this state to ensure the protection of the rights of the unborn child in all manners and measures lawful and appropriate."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
May 12, 2011
7,003
7,618
PA
✟324,832.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Ok.

Totally wrong.
It's an inherent consequence of in vitro fertilization. You can't put just one egg into a petri dish with a bunch of sperm and expect to get a viable embryo, and embryos frequently don't attach to the uterine lining (as in nature - the vast majority of naturally-produced fertilized eggs never implant), so a fertility clinic will generally produce a fairly large number of embryos, and several will be introduced to the uterus in the hope that one implants. Extras will be frozen for future attempts at IVF, whether because the couple wants another child or because the first pregnancy wasn't viable.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,731
37,057
Los Angeles Area
✟838,909.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
So again whos going to compensate the couples for their embryos and how to go by it? Legally right?
If I were benevolent dictator of the Earth, it would seem easy enough for the IVF facility to whip up some more embryos from the parents at no cost to them.

If you accidentally drop my belongings and destroy them I'm in all my rights to seek legal action.

Not as a wrongful death suit.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,731
37,057
Los Angeles Area
✟838,909.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
I'm sure there's lots of other benefits that can be dreamed up.
It occurs to me that the state should shut the facility down as it is not a licensed day care facility.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Rocket surgeon
Mar 11, 2017
15,506
12,389
54
USA
✟308,459.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Why can't they sue? If you accidentally drop my belongings and destroy them I'm in all my rights to seek legal action. And how severe the legal action depends on what the belongings are. How are you going to replace the embryos? Donate yours with a different DNA from the couples? It's like accidentally running over a family pet then say I'll just buy you another as long as it's the same species. People have emotional attachment.

They are suing. That's what this case is. They are using the "unborn child" extension of the existing fetal extension to the states "wrongful death of a minor" act, rather than treating the embryos as destroyed property.
 
Upvote 0

Yttrium

Independent Centrist
May 19, 2019
3,963
4,373
Pacific NW
✟249,136.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Single
I'm surprised Alabama didn't put in vitro fertilization out of business shortly after the Sanctity of Life amendment was passed. Sure, they have to count all those embryos as unborn children now, and they have to protect them from being destroyed, which makes any use of them problematic. They're going to lose some embryos whenever they try to implant them.

Just shut down IVF in Alabama. It's not worth all the potential lawsuits.
 
Upvote 0

driewerf

a day at the Zoo
Mar 7, 2010
3,391
1,925
✟263,593.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Did you read the article? Them being children is in the specific context of The Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, not a statement that they count as children in every single instance of any law.

In fact, the question here wasn't whether unborn children--that is, in the womb--count as children for the purpose of The Wrongful Death of a Minor Act; previous rulings had already established that. The question was whether frozen embryos, which aren't in the womb, count as such.
Is this a variation on Schrödinger's cat: it's a child and it isn't a child?
 
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Angels Team
Feb 10, 2013
15,255
8,842
28
Nebraska
✟252,197.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
It's an inherent consequence of in vitro fertilization. You can't put just one egg into a petri dish with a bunch of sperm and expect to get a viable embryo, and embryos frequently don't attach to the uterine lining (as in nature - the vast majority of naturally-produced fertilized eggs never implant), so a fertility clinic will generally produce a fairly large number of embryos, and several will be introduced to the uterus in the hope that one implants. Extras will be frozen for future attempts at IVF, whether because the couple wants another child or because the first pregnancy wasn't viable.
Thank you. I'm aware.
 
Upvote 0

o_mlly

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2021
2,082
285
Private
✟72,278.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
That's what this case is. They are using the "unborn child" extension of the existing fetal extension to the states "wrongful death of a minor" act, rather than treating the embryos as destroyed property.
Nope. The appellate court applied existing case law and the Alabama constitution to the facts of the case. Were the children in the cryogenic chamber minors at the time of their death? Yes. Was their death wrongful? Yes. Therefore, the case is categorized as the "wrongful death of a minor". What "'unborn child' extension of the existing fetal extension" do you think the Alabama court missed in its decision?
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Rocket surgeon
Mar 11, 2017
15,506
12,389
54
USA
✟308,459.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Nope. The appellate court applied existing case law and the Alabama constitution to the facts of the case. Were the children in the cryogenic chamber minors at the time of their death? Yes. Was their death wrongful? Yes. Therefore, the case is categorized as the "wrongful death of a minor". What "'unborn child' extension of the existing fetal extension" do you think the Alabama court missed in its decision?

Your whole post was disagreeing with something I didn't say. I was only describing the case.

I didn't say anything about a "missed" anything, rather I said they used an extension of the "unborn child" principle in the "wrongful death of a minor" statue to apply to frozen embryos as it already applies to fetuses. I made no statement about what the Alabama court missed. (I think it is nuts, but that's not what my post was about.)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RestoreTheJoy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 13, 2018
5,164
1,659
Passing Through
✟461,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Three couples whose frozen embryos were destroyed when a wandering Mobile hospital patient dropped the specimens can sue for wrongful death because the embryos were “children,” the Alabama Supreme Court ruled Friday in reversing a judge’s decision to throw out the case.

The Wrongful Death of a Minor Act “applies to all unborn children, regardless of their location,” wrote Alabama Supreme Court Justice Jay Mitchell. “[T]he Wrongful Death of a Minor Act is sweeping and unqualified. It applies to all children, born and unborn, without limitation.

Article about the lower court ruling

“It is clear to this court, based on Alabama’s statutes and case law, that a strong belief in the sanctity of life has not prevented the Alabama Supreme Court from recognizing and upholding our legislature’s clear pattern of using the term in utero” [emphasis original] when defining the unborn or minor child, including in the context of a wrongful death case,” Phillips wrote in her ruling Tuesday.

AL Supreme Court ruling

I gather the thrust of it is that the law says 'child', we've previously ruled that that includes 'unborn child', and that fits these frozen embryos.

If they'd left it there, it might not have had such a whiff of violating church-state separation, but the chief justice's special concurrence wanders off to quote Aquinas, Calvin, van Mastricht, and the Bible (KJV).

In summary, the theologically based view of the sanctity of life adopted by the People of Alabama [the state constitution literally has a "Sanctity of Life" amendment added in 2018] encompasses the following: (1) God made every person in His image; (2) each person therefore has a value that far exceeds the ability of human beings to calculate; and (3) human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God, who views the destruction of His image as an affront to Himself.

The People of Alabama have declared the public policy of this State to be that unborn human life is sacred. We believe that each human being, from the moment of conception, is made in the image of God, created by Him to reflect His likeness. It is as if the People of Alabama took what was spoken of the prophet Jeremiah and applied it to every unborn person in this state: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, Before you were born I sanctified you." Jeremiah 1:5 ... Carving out an exception for the people in this case, small as they were, would be unacceptable to the People of this State, who have required us to treat every human being in accordance with the fear of a holy God who made them in His image.


From some of the dissents, pointing to originalism

In my judgment, the main opinion's view that the legal conclusion is "clear" and "black-letter law" is problematic because when the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act was first enacted in 1872, and for 100 years thereafter, IVF was not even a scientific possibility.
at the time the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act was enacted -- and long thereafter -- the term "unborn child" was only understood to refer to a child within its mother's womb.

It is not our role to expand the reach of a statute and "breathe life" into it by updating or amending it. It is also not our role to consider whether a law has become "stale" or "shelfworn."34 This is the same error made by those commentators who advocate for a living constitution and argue that the words in our Constitution should evolve over time.35

Instead, it is the role of the Legislature to determine whether a law is outdated (for instance, because of new technology) and, thus, requires updating. If our Court does "breathe life" into a law by expanding its reach, we short-circuit the legislative process and violate the Alabama Constitution's separation-of-powers clause.
This is a very interesting decision, from a legal perspective. Also it was totally foreseeable. And no, it is not at all necessary to get into the religious aspect. Facts: Someone wanted a child and went through this process. Through negligence, the to-be (in development)-child(ren) were destroyed. Therefore a wrongful death action can be filed.

Will this prevail upon appeal? To be determined.
 
Upvote 0

Derf

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2021
1,463
362
61
Colorado Springs
✟99,892.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So they'd be considered US citizens, even if their parents weren't.
That doesn't seem to be a concern with this administration anyway, Next.
And they could be adopted and counted as dependents on a tax return and for the purposes of getting government assistance.
Maybe, but that can be handled a different way. Next.
When they're 5 years old, local governments will have to begin paying for their education.
Same as above, since they won't be educatable. Next.
Seems like a lot of unintended consequences if this idea is applied consistently.
None of that seem as bad as the other consequence of treating them like they are a blob of goo instead of the consequences of killing a person created in the image of God.
Not to mention the issue of a state government trying to enforce "theologically based" laws.
Murder is a theologically based law. Are you saying we should not enforce "Thou shalt not murder"?
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyG
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Rocket surgeon
Mar 11, 2017
15,506
12,389
54
USA
✟308,459.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Murder is a theologically based law. Are you saying we should not enforce "Thou shalt not murder"?

Murder is a crime in every society regardless of that societies religious foundations or lack there of and has been since long before Moses climbed that mountain.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: DaisyDay
Upvote 0

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Site Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,246
5,643
Erewhon
Visit site
✟940,820.00
Faith
Atheist
Murder is a crime in every society regardless of that societies religious foundations or lack there of and has been since long before Moses climbed that mountain.
"Thou shalt not murder" is a useless command anyway. It just means that one should not commit unlawful killing. I.e., Thou shalt kill only those we tell you to kill. Or, you are allowed to kill only those we allow you to kill.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

o_mlly

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2021
2,082
285
Private
✟72,278.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Your whole post was disagreeing with something I didn't say. I was only describing the case.

I didn't say anything about a "missed" anything, rather I said they used an extension of the "unborn child" principle in the "wrongful death of a minor" statue to apply to frozen embryos as it already applies to fetuses. I made no statement about what the Alabama court missed. (I think it is nuts, but that's not what my post was about.)
? "They are using the "unborn child" extension of the existing fetal extension ...". There is no Alabama existing fetal law to which a "fetal extension" could be applied. Good try, though.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Rocket surgeon
Mar 11, 2017
15,506
12,389
54
USA
✟308,459.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
? "They are using the "unborn child" extension of the existing fetal extension ...". There is no Alabama existing fetal law to which a "fetal extension" could be applied. Good try, though.

Read the earlier posts, not just mine. They clearly indicate that the Alabama law on torts for wrongful deaths of children included fetuses during pregnancy. The court extends this to pre-implantation embryos as "unborn children" (or whatever term they used).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Derf
Upvote 0

o_mlly

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2021
2,082
285
Private
✟72,278.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Not to mention the issue of a state government trying to enforce "theologically based" laws.
Here's your answer:
Murder is a crime in every society regardless of that societies religious foundations or lack there of and has been since long before Moses climbed that mountain.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hans Blaster

Rocket surgeon
Mar 11, 2017
15,506
12,389
54
USA
✟308,459.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Here's your answer:
My post was not supporting your position that murder was a theologically based law. I agree with @KCfromNC which is why I stated that murder has been a crime in every society regardless of the theology or lack there of. The laws of the US are not based on theology and yet murder is a crime everywhere here. (Also, no "murder" was charged in this case. It is a wrongful death lawsuit about an accidental "death".)
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.