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God Is Neither Random Nor Capricious In Whom He Hardens Or Hates

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bbbbbbb

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I have taught Romans 9 many times to adults and will spend hours on it. You have to keep it in context of not only Ro. 9-11, but also all of Romans and what Paul is teaching. We like to pull verses out to support a point, but do not address why that verse was written to that place at that time.

Vessels of mercy did not have to be specifically “named” when God decided to glorify them and shower them with gifts.

You really need to put every verse in Ro. 9 in the context of at least all of Ro. 9, ro. 9-11 and all of Romans.

Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.

The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).

Some “Christians” do not seem to understand how Paul, uses diatribes and think, since he just showed God being “unjust” and saying God is “not unjust” that God has a special God definition of “just”, making God “just” by His standard and appearing totally unjust by human standards. God is not a hypocrite and does not redefine what He told us to be true.

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

Think further about this: The Jews (thinking the gentiles were dogs) would support their distant for the Gentiles by pointing out to them how God: loved Jacob, a Jew, and hated Esau, a gentile, plus Jacob and Ishmael, Moses and Pharoah and with other OT true stories. Those true stories would thus be formular to both Jewish and Gentile Christians, showing the Jews were special and the ZGentiles were just common.

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common, while others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction, since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

Just because Paul uses a Potter as being God in his analogy and Jerimiah 18 uses a Potter as being God in his analogy, does not mean the analogies are conveying the exact same analogy. Jerimiah is talking about clay on the potter’s wheel being change while still being malleable clay (which fits the changing of Israel), but Paul is talking about two finished pots (vessels) so they cannot both be Israel, the clay is the same for both and the clay is not changing the outcome of the pot. The two pots (vessels) are completed and a person is asking “Why did you make me like this”, so it is about “how a person is made (born)” and not a nation.

Since Jerimiah talks only about one pot on the wheel changing and Paul is talking about two kinds of completed pots (vessels), who are the two different pots?



Paul is saying in 2 Tim 2: 21 even after leaving the shop the common vessels can cleanse themselves and thus become instruments for a special purpose. So, who is the common vessel and who is the special vessel in this analogy?

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
Whoa! Where do you come up with the idea that "The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians."?

The letter which addresses divisions in the church is not Romans, but I Corinthians where the divisions are not between Jews and Gentiles, but much more diverse in nature. Romans is Paul's great exposition of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul sets out his theme from the very beginning of the letter.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
 
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bling

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Ro 9-11 is clearly a vindication of the righteousness of God in rejecting the Jews,
where the justice of that rejection (9:1-29) is vindicated (9:30-10:21) and
the sovereignty of God in that rejection, as well as in all his dealings with men, is likewise explained and vindicated.
no
 
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bling

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Whoa! Where do you come up with the idea that "The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians."?

The letter which addresses divisions in the church is not Romans, but I Corinthians where the divisions are not between Jews and Gentiles, but much more diverse in nature. Romans is Paul's great exposition of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul sets out his theme from the very beginning of the letter.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
Paul is the ideal person to resolve the division between the Jewish and gentile Christians in Rome.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Paul is the ideal person to resolve the division between the Jewish and gentile Christians in Rome.
That is your assumption. We have no evidence of any serious divisions between Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome. Paul does address that issue in his letter to the church in Ephesus.
 
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bling

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Ro 9-11 is clearly a vindication of the righteousness of God in rejecting the Jews,
where the justice of that rejection (9:1-29) is vindicated (9:30-10:21) and
the sovereignty of God in that rejection, as well as in all his dealings with men, is likewise explained and vindicated.
You say: “God in rejecting the Jews”, but Paul says just the opposite in Ro. 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!

God does not “reject” people causing them to be lost, but some people from any and all nations will humbly accept or reject God’s love causing them to be lost or saved.

God certainly did not ever reject: “There is no difference between Jews and gentiles".

Ro. 10: 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes…. 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Jews or Gentiles believing in God/Jesus from their hearts, God will save.

Ro. 10: 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news.

It is only just the acceptance of the free undeserved gift which makes the difference between lost and saved. Which comes with “hearing the message”

21 But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
 
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Clare73

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You say: “God in rejecting the Jews”, but Paul says just the opposite in Ro. 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!
Not all Israel is (true) Israel.
God rejected the nation of Israel, but he did not reject his true people in that nation.
 
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bling

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That is your assumption. We have no evidence of any serious divisions between Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome. Paul does address that issue in his letter to the church in Ephesus.
This takes a chapter-by-chapter study of Romans to proof to the skeptic the meaning and to see the problem being addressed from beginning to end.
 
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Clare73

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This takes a chapter-by-chapter study of Romans to proof to the skeptic the meaning and to see the problem being addressed from beginning to end.
Your chp-by-chp study of Ro does not yield the meaning and problem being addressed in Ro 9-11; i.e., the vindication of God's righteousness in rejecting unbelieving Israel,
whose destiny is to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people (Ro 11), the NT church. . .IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23). . .which they have for 2,000 years now, and counting.

According to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, Israel's only destiny is to be grafted back into the church IF they do not persist in unbelief. If they do persist, Israel's destiny is the same as that of all other unbelievers.

God has only one plan. . .to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9-10). Whatever is not in Christ will be destroyed in the end, and there will be a new heaven and new earth, no unbelief and sin, the home of righteousness (2 Pe 3:10-13).
 
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Minister Monardo

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You say: “God in rejecting the Jews”, but Paul says just the opposite in Ro. 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!

God does not “reject” people causing them to be lost, but some people from any and all nations will humbly accept or reject God’s love causing them to be lost or saved.

God certainly did not ever reject: “There is no difference between Jews and gentiles".

Ro. 10: 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes…. 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Jews or Gentiles believing in God/Jesus from their hearts, God will save.

Ro. 10: 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news.

It is only just the acceptance of the free undeserved gift which makes the difference between lost and saved. Which comes with “hearing the message”

21 But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
To which, if we can return to the topic, the standard that led to who was hardened. While God is always fully vindicated, many often interpret Romans 9 to suggest the vessels of wrath were chosen at random to serve God's purpose. The OP shows otherwise.
 
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bling

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Not all Israel is (true) Israel.
God rejected the nation of Israel, but he did not reject his true people in that nation.
You are taking the phrase totally out of context by saying Paul is not talking about the nation of Israel, because Paul is very specifically talking about the nation of Israel, just look at the rest of the verse: Ro. 11:1…I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul did not refer to himself as being part of the elect or a Christian, but is specifically referring to the nation of Israel (descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin).

Yes! Not all Israelites are true Israelites, but in Ro. 1:1 Paul is addressing his fellow Jews (descendants of Abraham).
 
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bling

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Your chp-by-chp study of Ro does not yield the meaning and problem being addressed in Ro 9-11; i.e., the vindication of God's righteousness in rejecting unbelieving Israel,
whose destiny is to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people (Ro 11), the NT church. . .IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23). . .which they have for 2,000 years now, and counting.

According to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, Israel's only destiny is to be grafted back into the church IF they do not persist in unbelief. If they do persist, Israel's destiny is the same as all other unbelievers' destiny.
Yes it does, but show me how you think it does not?
 
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Clare73

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You are taking the phrase totally out of context by saying Paul is not talking about the nation of Israel, because Paul is very specifically talking about the nation of Israel, just look at the rest of the verse: Ro. 11:1…I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
"Did God reject his people? . . .God did not reject his people whom he foreknew." (Ro 11:2)

"Those God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son," (Ro 8:29).

Is that a description of the whole nation of Israel?
You are not talking about the same Israel of which Paul is speaking.
Paul did not refer to himself as being part of the elect or a Christian, but is specifically referring to the nation of Israel (descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin).

Yes! Not all Israelites are true Israelites, but in Ro. 1:1 Paul is addressing his fellow Jews (descendants of Abraham).
Romans is addressing the Christian church of Rome (1:7) who were predominantly Gentile, giving them a systematic theological essay on Christian doctrine--sin, salvation, grace, faith, righteousness, justification, sanctification, redemption, death and resurrection, where in Ro 9-11 he expresses his deep concern for Israel--her present status (rejected), her relationship to the Gentiles (her rejection is their reconciliation to God) and her final salvation (IF--not "when"--she does not persist in unbelief, Ro 11:23).
 
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Clare73

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To which, if we can return to the topic, the standard that led to who was hardened. While God is always fully vindicated, many often interpret Romans 9 to suggest the vessels of wrath were chosen at random to serve God's purpose. The OP shows otherwise.
In context, all mankind by fallen nature has a hardened heart until the Holy Spirit softens it in his sovereign rebirth from spiritual death to eternal life.

All those hearts which the Holy Spirit did not then, and does not now, soften in his sovereign new birth (Jn 3:3-5), his choice of whom being as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8), will reject Christ.
Christ is simply pointing out the evidence of the hearts that the Holy Spirit has not softened to receive the remedy for their condemnation (Ro 5:18).
It all goes back to God holding mankind guilty of Adam's transgression. (Ro 3:9, 5:12).
 
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bbbbbbb

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This takes a chapter-by-chapter study of Romans to proof to the skeptic the meaning and to see the problem being addressed from beginning to end.
Would you care to do this with me? After studying the book of Romans multiple times as well as reading various commentaries and interacting with other Christians concerning the book, I find myself in general agreement with Luther in his commentary. His general conclusion, in case you may be unfamiliar with it, is that Romans can be best understood as being an exposition of the Gospel and, in true Lutheran fashion, Gospel is contrasted with Law.
 
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Minister Monardo

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In context, all mankind by fallen nature has a hardened heart until the Holy Spirit softens it in his sovereign rebirth from spiritual death to eternal life.

All those hearts which the Holy Spirit did not then, and does not now, soften in his sovereign new birth (Jn 3:3-5), his choice of whom being as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8), will reject Christ.
Christ is simply pointing out the evidence of the hearts that the Holy Spirit has not softened to receive the remedy for their condemnation (Ro 5:18).
It all goes back to God holding mankind guilty of Adam's transgression. (Ro 3:9, 5:12).
Not the context of the thread. Many in Israel believed in Jesus. Those who did not were judged based on a specific decision indentified in the scriptures and the OP.
 
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Paul is the ideal person to resolve the division between the Jewish and gentile Christians in Rome.

Jewish Christians is an oxymoronic term to use in trying to understand Romans 9-11.

There are the physical Jews, some believed Jesus as their Messiah, majority do not.

There are the gentiles who believed that Christ died for their sins and rose again for their justification. These are the Christians.
 
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Minister Monardo

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These are the Christians.
Nope. The first Christians were Jews and Hellenists.
Acts 11:
19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen
traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.
20 But some of them were men from Cyprus and Cyrene, who, when they had come to Antioch,
spoke to the Hellenists, preaching the Lord Jesus.
21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord.
22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem,
and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.
23 When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all
that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord.
24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith.
And a great many people were added to the Lord.
25 Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul.
26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch.

So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church
and taught a great many people.
And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
 
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