What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Based on that and the Britannica article, it seems there's no solid evidence of Peter being called the bishop of Rome during his lifetime. Even paragraph 424 of the CCC goes against the primacy of Peter. The whole idea is obviously a tradition that started way after Peter’s lifetime.

Unless you have some rock hard empirical evidence you've been withholding.

The letter of saint Clement of Rome is rock solid evidence.

 

[One God and Father of All]

That wasn't an opinion. It was a clarification of what was said.

WHEN did the church in Rome say that? That's essential in establishing Peter as the bishop of Rome.

The Catholic Church doesn’t believe they have to rely on the testimony of scripture for their doctrines. They believe they can make up whatever they want and then expect you to believe it.
They don’t like people do rely on the scripture to teach them the truth.

 

[ozso]

The letter of saint Clement of Rome is rock solid evidence.

Could you cite that please?

 

[One God and Father of All]

Why not?

It's true, so why can't I state it?

Your truth is not based on truth. God’s word is truth.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Catholic Church doesn’t believe they have to rely on the testimony of scripture for their doctrines. They believe they can make up whatever they want and then expect you to believe it.
They don’t like people do rely on the scripture to teach them the truth.

Your statements above are in error.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Could you cite that please?

I could but you can look it up. Why don't you do that?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Your truth is not based on truth. God’s word is truth.

Is there any point in your claims? Ultimately, what you have stated, means that if it is not in the bible it is not true.

 

[ozso]

Your statements above are in error.

Based on my extensive debates with Catholics regarding certain RCC traditions, the statement is accurate enough.

 

[ozso]

I could but you can look it up. Why don't you do that?

I'm on my phone at work. Looking stuff up is difficult. Could you just please cite it please?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Based on my extensive debates with Catholics regarding certain RCC traditions, the statement is accurate enough.

Based on fact and history it is not accurate.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm on my phone at work. Looking stuff up is difficult. Could you just please cite it please?

I think you can wait until you're in a better place. The letter of saint Clement of Rome is almost 2,000 years old, it will be there later today.

 

[ozso]

I think you can wait until you're in a better place. The letter of saint Clement of Rome is almost 2,000 years old, it will be there later today.

So you can not provide citation for your claim. It's obviously false, because if what you claimed is true, we wouldn't be having this debate.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So you can not provide citation for your claim. It's obviously false, because if what you claimed is true, we wouldn't be having this debate.

The logic in your statement is absurd, I cannot help but laugh at it.

 

[ozso]

The logic in your statement is absurd, I cannot help but laugh at it.

I cannot help but laugh at your blatant evasiveness.

 

[One God and Father of All]

Is there any point in your claims? Ultimately, what you have stated, means that if it is in in the bible it is not true.

its no small matter to claim Peter was the first Pope and supreme head of the church and that when he retired or died another Pope would have been elected.
Your tradition has Popes. A tradition doesn’t make something true.

 

[ozso]

its no small matter to claim Peter was the first Pope and supreme head of the church and that when he retired or died another Pope would have been elected.
Your tradition has Popes. A tradition doesn’t make something true.

Xeno says the letter of saint Clement of Rome is rock solid evidence of Peter being the first bishop of Rome (first Pope). I'm sure evidence of that claim will be presented any minute now. And then we'll have to concede.

 

[Bones49]

Why is it that folk who claim this or that isn't in the bible don't look it up for themselves?

I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
[1Co 4:14-15 ESV]

Why can't you just put the reference with the quote? (OK, I understand, I usually don't remember the reference either, so it is a pain, but give and take!)

Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. (Jesus speaking)

OK. So Paul referred to himself as the father of the Corinthian church. Did he go against what Jesus said in Matt 23:9. I would say no. He referred to himself as the father of the church, he did not tell the church that they should call him father. Also I feel that the usage of the word is different by Paul than Jesus. I think the force of Jesus' words are on the authority figure side of things, where for Paul it's more on the loving parent side of things.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Xeno says the letter of saint Clement of Rome is rock solid evidence of Peter being the first bishop of Rome (first Pope). I'm sure evidence of that claim will be presented any minute now. And then we'll have to concede.

 

[Valletta]

Apostles cannot be succeeded as in an "apostolic succession." An apostle could be "replaced," as in the case with Judas Iscariot. But an apostle could not be "succeeded," since founding the Church was a job that was completed by the original set of apostles.

Jesus, in words paralleling Isaiah 22 (as RileyG mentioned) that Jews of the day would have recognized, gave the keys to the kingdom to Rock (Peter). Of all of the Apostles, Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter alone. In Isaiah, a king gives the keys to the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority. When the office of prime minister becomes vacant, a new prime minister is chosen.

 

[ozso]

View attachment 342436

That obviously was not written by Clement.

Your credibility is going down the drain.