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What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

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RandyPNW

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Saint Peter lived for many years after Jesus called him to be the rock upon which God was to build the Church. Saint Peter was pope for around 34 years. He died in Rome at the hand of Nero the pagan Roman emperor and persecutor of Christ's church. And when saint Peter died the Church was well established in Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and many other towns and cities within the Roman empire. So, saint Peter was the father of the faithful as their earthly leader and teacher under the guidance and grace of God.
You're making up history to support your Peter is the 1st Pope theory. What organization of the Church existed in Rome in the 1st century? Jesus said to call no man "Father" for a reason. It is because of people like you who wish to establish a favorite organization superior to all others so that all may bend the knee to your Pope.

There is a reason that organization should always have checks and balances. It is because the office holders have to be held responsible. We can't just say so and so is head over a denomination and everybody must submit to him!

And if the denomination itself revolts and turns away from true biblical doctrine, what authority resides in that denomination and its authorities when they no longer properly represent Jesus? All Christians, shepherds and flocks, you and me, need to be held accountable for moral practice, spiritual fidelity, and true doctrine. I should hope you'd agree with me rather than promote RCC superiority on earth?

The source of our Salvation is Christ alone, and not the Church. We are just stewards of this Salvation, and must be recognized as faithful, or have our credentials removed.
 
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One God and Father of All

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The verse does not say “upon you I will build my church” rather he says “upon this……”.
The “this” refers to what they were speaking about. Jesus asked Peter who he was and Peter said “you are the Christ, the son of the living God” then Jesus said, “ you are Peter, and upon this……..Christ church is built on knowing who he is and him knowing you.
 
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One God and Father of All

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The following comes from the second edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

423 We believe and confess that Jesus of Nazareth, born a Jew of a daughter of Israel at Bethlehem at the time of King Herod the Great and the emperor Caesar Augustus, a carpenter by trade, who died crucified in Jerusalem under the procurator Pontius Pilate during the reign of the emperor Tiberius, is the eternal Son of God made man. He 'came from God',4 'descended from heaven',5 and 'came in the flesh'.6 For 'the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. . . And from his fullness have we all received, grace upon grace.'7

424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'8 On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.9

If you notice 424 says we believe and confess: ‘You are the Christ, Son of the living God’ “On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.

Why did the RCC change what they believed?

Instead of Christ building his church on the confession of Peter‘s faith in knowing who Christ is, they now say the Church is built on Peter.

What do you think might cause them to change the truth to a lie?
 
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RandyPNW

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The verse does not say “upon you I will build my church” rather he says “upon this……”.
The “this” refers to what they were speaking about. Jesus asked Peter who he was and Peter said “you are the Christ, the son of the living God” then Jesus said, “ you are Peter, and upon this……..Christ church is built on knowing who he is and him knowing you.
Yes, Jesus was not establishing a hierarchy. James and Paul were equals with Peter. They all recognized in Jesus the "Rock" of their Salvation. Peter was just one "rock" among many who would contribute to the building of the Church.

1 Cor 3.9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.


We should take Paul's attitude, who considered the builders to be nothing except servants. It is God who gives the increase. To Him alone belongs the glory. We will be rewarded if we are faithful. Peter was but one among many who would faithfully build up God's Church. There were a good number of early apostles who laid the foundation--not just Peter. Jesus was indicating the quality of the builder if he is to build God's Church. He must recognize, by faith, that Jesus is the Son of God. He must recognize Jesus as the source of all Life from God and virtue. He must recognize that if we are to contribute to God's Kingdom we must live in accord with the Spirit of Christ.

Matt 20.23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
 
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One God and Father of All

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There can't be just Jesus as the sovereign Lord of His Church.
There has to be a triune rulership of the Church that consists of Mary, Jesus, Pope.
Who said there has to be a new head of the church?

Jesus never appointed anyone to be head of his church because he himself is head of the church. The analogy is of a body. And a body only has one head. So it’s certainly a false pride for someone to claim to be head of the church as the Pope does when the body only has one head. Not only does he claim to be head of the church but he claims to be the supreme head of the church.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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It is because of people like you who wish to establish a favorite organization superior to all others so that all may bend the knee to your Pope.
The Catholic Church is not superior but it is older and it is the Church that Christ builds.
 
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ozso

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Who said there has to be a new head of the church?

Jesus never appointed anyone to be head of his church because he himself is head of the church. The analogy is of a body. And a body only has one head. So it’s certainly a false pride for someone to claim to be head of the church as the Pope does when the body only has one head. Not only does he claim to be head of the church but he claims to be the supreme head of the church.
That's the title each pope is given. And there's also Mary as well declared as a supreme figure. Just as it's Father, Son, Holy Spirit; for the Roman Catholic Church it's also essentially Mother, Son, Pope.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock ( Peters confession )
Yet it is saint Peter who is named Rock and the confession as laudable as it truly is isn't called rock. if we remove that extra words that you added to the verse then it reads thus: And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. It is not a confession that hell conspires against but the Church, and the Church is built upon the faithful man, saint Peter and his successors maintain it in faith.
 
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One God and Father of All

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Yet it is saint Peter who is named Rock and the confession as laudable as it truly is isn't called rock. if we remove that extra words that you added to the verse then it reads thus: And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. It is not a confession that hell conspires against but the Church, and the Church is built upon the faithful man, saint Peter and his successors maintain it in faith.
Why did the Catholic Church change what they originally believed that Peter‘s faith in knowing who Christ was, is the rock on which the church is built, to now claiming that Peter was the first Pope?

Could it be that they were feeling the heat to justify the need for a Pope?
If they could twist what they originally believed to something else they could have some testimony from scripture. So rather say it was Peter’s faith in knowing Christ as the verse clearly says, and what they believed, they changed their understanding to say Peter was the rock on which the church would be built. In that way they could say that Christ was leaving his church in the hands of someone else and that would continue in a successio.
 
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guyver

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Yet it is saint Peter who is named Rock and the confession as laudable as it truly is isn't called rock. if we remove that extra words that you added to the verse then it reads thus: And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. It is not a confession that hell conspires against but the Church, and the Church is built upon the faithful man, saint Peter and his successors maintain it in faith.
You didn't quote or take notice of all of what I said , please take notice.



Peter believed in his heart and confessed with his mouth.
The thief on the cross also believed in his heart and confessed with his mouth.

8Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock ( Peters confession ) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Verse please?
Why is it that folk who claim this or that isn't in the bible don't look it up for themselves?

I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
[1Co 4:14-15 ESV]
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Why did the Catholic Church change what they originally believed that Peter‘s faith in knowing who Christ was, is the rock on which the church is built, to now claiming that Peter was the first Pope?
The answer to that is the Catholic Church didn't change what they believed.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Then so be it , no probs.
There is a nice Protestant chap from the 19th century who commented on the verse; Albert Barnes is his name, he wrote:
Mat 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter - The word “Peter,” in Greek, means “a rock.” It was given to Simon by Christ when he called him to be a disciple, Joh 1:42​
Cephas is a Syriac word, meaning the same as Peter - a rock, or stone. The meaning of this phrase may be thus expressed: “Thou, in saying that I am the Son of God, hast called me by a name expressive of my true character. I, also, have given to thee a name expressive of your character. I have called you Peter, a rock, denoting firmness, solidity, stability, and your confession has shown that the name is appropriate. I see that you are worthy of the name, and will be a distinguished support of my religion.”​
And upon this rock ... - This passage has given rise to many different interpretations. Some have supposed that the word “rock” refers to Peter’s confession, and that Jesus meant to say, upon this rock, this truth that thou hast confessed, that I am the Messiah and upon confessions of this from all believers, I will build my church. Confessions like this shall be the test of piety, and in such confessions shall my church stand amid the flames of persecution, the fury of the gates of hell. Others have thought that Jesus referred to himself. Christ is called a rock, Isa 28:16; 1Pe 2:8. And it has been thought that he turned from Peter to himself, and said, “Upon this rock, this truth that I am the Messiah - upon myself as the Messiah, I will build my church.” Both these interpretations, though plausible, seem forced upon the passage to avoid the main difficulty in it. Another interpretation is, that the word “rock” refers to Peter himself.​
This is the obvious meaning of the passage; and had it not been that the Church of Rome has abused it, and applied it to what was never intended, no other interpretation would have been sought for. “Thou art a rock. Thou hast shown thyself firm, and suitable for the work of laying the foundation of the church. Upon thee will I build it. Thou shalt be highly honoured; thou shalt be first in making known the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles.” This was accomplished. See Acts 2:14-36, where he first preached to the Jews, and Acts 10, where he preached the gospel to Cornelius and his neighbours, who were Gentiles. Peter had thus the honour of laying the foundation of the church among the Jews and Gentiles; and this is the plain meaning of this passage. See also Gal 2:9. But Christ did not mean, as the Roman Catholics say he did, to exalt Peter to supreme authority above all the other apostles, or to say that he was the only one upon whom he would rear his church. See Acts 15, where the advice of James, and not that of Peter, was followed. See also Gal 2:11, where Paul withstood Peter to his face, because he was to be blamed - a thing which could not have happened if Christ (as the Roman Catholics say) meant that Peter was absolute and infallible. More than all, it is not said here, or anywhere else in the Bible, that Peter would have infallible successors who would be the vicegerents of Christ and the head of the church. The whole meaning of the passage is this: “I will make you the honoured instrument of making known my gospel first to Jews and Gentiles, and I will make you a firm and distinguished preacher in building my church.”​
Will build my church - This refers to the custom of building in Judea upon a rock or other very firm foundation. See the notes at Mat 7:24. The word “church” literally means “those called out,” and often means an assembly or congregation. See Act 19:32, Greek; Act 7:38. It is applied to Christians as being “called out” from the world. It means sometimes the whole body of believers, Eph 1:22; 1Co 10:32. This is its meaning in this place. It means, also, a particular society of believers worshipping in one place, Act 8:1; Act 9:31; 1Co 1:2, etc.; sometimes, also, a society in a single house, as Rom 16:5. In common language it means the church visible - i. e., all who profess religion; or invisible, i. e., all who are real Christians, professors or not.​
And the gates of hell ... - Ancient cities were surrounded by walls. In the gates by which they were entered were the principal places for holding courts, transacting business, and deliberating on public matters. See the notes at Mat 7:13. Compare the notes at Job 29:7. See also Deu 22:4; 1Sa 4:18; Jer 36:10; Gen 19:1; Psa 69:12; Psa 9:14; Pro 1:21. The word “gates,” therefore, is used for counsels, designs, machinations, evil purposes.​
“Hell” means, here, the place of departed spirits, particularly evil spirits; and the meaning of the passage is, that all the plots, stratagems, and machinations of the enemies of the church would not be able to overcome it a promise that has been remarkably fulfilled.​
 
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One God and Father of All

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The answer to that is the Catholic Church didn't change what they believed.
They most certainly did. I posted what the second edition of the Catechism says regarding the verse in question (post #23)
 
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