Absolution

[Guojing]

I'm pretty sure there wasn't a point about Genesis 6:14

You agreed with me that that instruction was not directed to anyone else but Noah.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You agreed with me that that instruction was not directed to anyone else but Noah.

It seems patently obvious that the Genesis passage was not intended for anybody but Noah.

 

[Guojing]

It seems patently obvious that the Genesis passage was not intended for anybody but Noah.

That is why I started with that example, to illustrate my similar point for John 20:23.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That is why I started with that example, to illustrate my similar point for John 20:23.

Except that John 20:23 is not obviously meant just for the eleven apostles.

Now when it was late the same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.​

[Joh 20:19-23]
The verse certainly extends to Matthias who was chosen after this event. The commission where Jesus says I send you is clearly not limited to the apostles alone. And the gift of the Holy Spirit is extended to all Christians through all ages. so your argument is very weak it is not convincing.

 

[Guojing]

Except that John 20:23 is not obviously meant just for the eleven apostles.

Now when it was late the same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.​

[Joh 20:19-23]
The verse certainly extends to Matthias who was chosen after this event. The commission where Jesus says I send you is clearly not limited to the apostles alone. And the gift of the Holy Spirit is extended to all Christians through all ages. so your argument is very weak it is not convincing.

But I notice you exclude John 20:23 from ordinary Catholics and apply it only to the priests.

Is there a reason for that distinction, from that scripture verse alone?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

But I notice you exclude John 20:23 from ordinary Catholics and apply it only to the priests.

Is there a reason for that distinction, from that scripture verse alone?

It is from Scripture and from sacred tradition, The Lord Jesus made the promise to the apostles who are the predecessors to the bishops and the bishops appoint the priests. There's really no need to say any more.

 

[Guojing]

It is from Scripture and from sacred tradition, The Lord Jesus made the promise to the apostles who are the predecessors to the bishops and the bishops appoint the priests. There's really no need to say any more.

I see, so you do restrict John 20:23 to the 12 apostles, and because of your chain of causality, you end up believing that only the Catholic priests are the audience for that verse, and not the rest of you.

So in that sense, we are making the same point, John 20:23 is not for all of us.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Just asking as to when Priest's can forgive SIN's with a verse ?

I do know of a verse in John 20 :23 , but do not see how that can be applicable for today as it was ONLY for Israel.

dan p

No where does it say it was "only for Israel", that's something you're adding.

"The word of the Lord endures forever" - 1 Peter 1:25
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." - Hebrews 13:8
"I am the LORD, and I do not change" - Malachi 3:6

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

No where does it say it was "only for Israel", that's something you're adding.

"The word of the Lord endures forever" - 1 Peter 1:25
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." - Hebrews 13:8
"I am the LORD, and I do not change" - Malachi 3:6

-CryptoLutheran

And in John 20:19 , is speaking to the disciples and NOT to Gentiles .

And in verse 22 Jesus says RECEIVE YE HOLY SPIRIT .

# 1 The HOLY // HAGIOS is in the Greek ACCUSATIVE CASE , and it means that this power is LIMITED
PERIOD .

# 2 Why LIMITED , as it is in the Greek , SINGULAR and is in the Greek NEUTER , meaning Male and Female

#3 How did the disciples REMIT SINS , your thoughts /

#4 What happens when these disciples DIE ??

This means it DIES when Israel was SET ASIDE and refused to REPENT as per Acts 2:38 .

dan p

 

[Guojing]

No where does it say it was "only for Israel", that's something you're adding.

"The word of the Lord endures forever" - 1 Peter 1:25
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." - Hebrews 13:8
"I am the LORD, and I do not change" - Malachi 3:6

-CryptoLutheran

Would you claim one of the 12 thrones in the promise Jesus made to the 12 in Matthew 19:28?

No where does it say it was "only for the 12", would you agree? Does that mean that promise is also for you?

 

[ViaCrucis]

And in John 20:19 , is speaking to the disciples and NOT to Gentiles .

"The apostles and the presbyters were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, 'Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us, and He made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith." - Acts 15:6-9

And in verse 22 Jesus says RECEIVE YE HOLY SPIRIT .

# 1 The HOLY // HAGIOS is in the Greek ACCUSATIVE CASE , and it means that this power is LIMITED
PERIOD .

That's a non-sequitur. Yes, the word is in the accusitive, ἅγιον; it refers to the πνεῦμα which preceeds it. The Spirit is Holy, that is why we call Him "the Holy Spirit".

The claim "and it means that this power is LIMITED PERIOD" is a non-sequitur. It simply does not follow from the premise that ἅγιον is in the accusitive case. That it's in the accusitive case simply means that, grammatically, it refers to the Spirit, the Spirit is Holy, He is the Holy Spirit.

# 2 Why LIMITED , as it is in the Greek , SINGULAR and is in the Greek NEUTER , meaning Male and Female

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "LIMITED". That doesn't make any sense.

Yes, it is also singular and neuter. Neuter does not mean "male and female", neuter refers to the grammatical gender (which is not the same thing as actual gender) of the word. In Greek, and in many other languages, words can be masculine, feminine, or neuter. Neuter means neither masculine nor feminine; not that it is both.

Grammatical gender is not gender. A grammatically feminine word does not mean something is female. In many languages an inanimate object could be grammatically male or grammatically female--but inanimate objects don't have gender, they are inanimate objects. That's simply the nature of how many languages work.

I would encourage you to do some more homework on not just the Greek language in particular, but educate yourself on the subject of linguistics more generally.

#3 How did the disciples REMIT SINS , your thoughts /

"I forgive you your sins" is something an ordained minister of the Gospel can say because they speak in Christ's name based on the authority of Christ and Christ's word.

#4 What happens when these disciples DIE ??

This means it DIES when Israel was SET ASIDE and refused to REPENT as per Acts 2:38 .

dan p

Do you believe that the word of the Lord endures? Do you believe His promise when He says, "I will never leave nor forsake you" (Deuteronomy 31:6), do you believe Him when He says "I am with you always, even until the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

Do you believe Him?

Then do not doubt His promises.

Also, Israel was never set aside, she resides and abides in Christ her Redeemer.

"I ask then, has God rejected His people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew." - Romans 11:1-2

For the Gospel is for both Jew and Gentile,

"I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is God's power to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek" - Romans 1:16

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Would you claim one of the 12 thrones in the promise Jesus made to the 12 in Matthew 19:28?

No where does it say it was "only for the 12", would you agree? Does that mean that promise is also for you?

False equivalence.

Did the Apostles sanction and ordain others to be pastors? Yes or no?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

My bible is complete, it has 73 books in its table of contents; all quotes from me come from the complete bible

Who says that your bible is complete ?

Does God say it is complete ??

Or does Man and Tradition demand and say it is true ?

Or do you have a verse that I missed in my complete bible called the KJV ?

dan p

 

[Guojing]

False equivalence.

Did the Apostles sanction and ordain others to be pastors? Yes or no?

-CryptoLutheran

I am using the same reasoning you used.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Who says that your bible is complete ?

The Catholic Church.

Does God say it is complete ??

Yes.

Or does Man and Tradition demand and say it is true ?

Jesus Christ says it, he is a man.

Or do you have a verse that I missed in my complete bible called the KJV ?

I have this passage:

Catechism of the Catholic Church.​

IV. The Canon of Scripture​

​

120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books.90​

​

This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.91​

​

The Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi.​

​

The New Testament: the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the Acts of the Apostles, the Letters of St. Paul to the Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, the Letter to the Hebrews, the Letters of James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2 and 3 John, and Jude, and Revelation (the Apocalypse).​

 

[The Liturgist]

Every Sunday we as the congregation offer a penitential prayer, a prayer of confession to God. The pastor, who by Christ's name and authority, and in His stead, as a minister of Christ and His Gospel, exercising the sacred office of the Keys, declares our sins forgiven.

Absolution is a precious and holy gift for us, from Christ who personally instituted it in Holy Scripture.

Private confession is also available to any who seeks it out. But whether corporately or privately, it is a gift to be able to boldly approach the throne of grace, confess our sins, for we know from the promise of Scripture that if we confess our sins, God will forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness--that is the solemn promise of God in the Scriptures. And Christ our Lord provided this within the sacred ministry of His Church, that we should hear our forgiveness declared, and to trust in the powerful and living word of the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed, splendid.

 

[The Liturgist]

So likewise, non-Catholics are thinking the same when you think John 20:23 is directed to you.

They wish you good luck and have a good laugh at you as well

Ah no, because Anglicans, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Presbyterian, Assyrian and many other denominations and non-denominational Calvinist and Evangelical churches also believe in its applicability, as did the Early Church based on surviving Patristic writings. Indeed even Valentinian and Arian heretics believed in it. So to did the early Unitarian Christian heretics. It is not just a Roman Catholic thing, not by a long shot.

Indeed you are literally the first person I have encountered who regards John 20:23 as inapplicable, although I am sure others will become evident as I read this thread.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Indeed you are literally the first person I have encountered who regards John 20:23 as inapplicable, although I am sure others will become evident as I read this thread.

Others will appear, there will be even more interesting interpretations. If John 20:23 is applicable only to the 12, technically the 11, then why isn't the Great Commission applicable only to the eleven? It was only given to the 11, yet I do not know of any Christian who will read the passage and say, oh, that was true only in Apostolic times and only for the 11 surviving Apostles.

 

[The Liturgist]

Others will appear, there will be even more interesting interpretations. If John 20:23 is applicable only to the 12, technically the 11, then why isn't the Great Commission applicable only to the eleven? It was only given to the 11, yet I do not know of any Christian who will read the passage and say, oh, that was true only in Apostolic times and only for the 11 surviving Apostles.

Indeed this is entirely valid. It is a gross error to claim that the instructions given to the Apostles were not meant with us in mind.

 

[Guojing]

Ah no, because Anglicans, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Presbyterian, Assyrian and many other denominations and non-denominational Calvinist and Evangelical churches also believe in its applicability, as did the Early Church based on surviving Patristic writings. Indeed even Valentinian and Arian heretics believed in it. So to did the early Unitarian Christian heretics. It is not just a Roman Catholic thing, not by a long shot.

Indeed you are literally the first person I have encountered who regards John 20:23 as inapplicable, although I am sure others will become evident as I read this thread.

You have not met any protestants who don't even realized John 20:23 exists in their bible?