Is believing/faith a work ?

[Buzzard3]

Romans 8:1-7 KJV
1 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, [works of the flesh], but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death [Mosiac Law].
3 For what the law [Mosiac Law] could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law [Mosiac Law] might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, [works of the flesh], but after the Spirit.
5 For” they that are after the flesh [works of the flesh] do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [the Adamic nature that produce the works of the flesh] is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [Adamic Nature] is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, [Mosiac Law], neither indeed can be.

The sinful nature all human beings have is the result of the Adamic nature inherited from Adam. It is that sinful nature Paul is saying is not subject to the law [Mosiac Law], and which causes sin: works of the flesh; desires of the flesh; all manner of sins.

All sin is governed by the Mosiac law, to include the works of the flesh.

If Christians aren't under Mosaic law, are they free in indulge in "the works of the flesh"?

 

[biblelesson]

If Christians aren't under Mosaic law, are they free in indulge in "the works of the flesh"?

No! Romans 6:1-3 KJV, Romans 6:12 KJV

 

[Buzzard3]

No! Romans 6:1-3 KJV, Romans 6:12 KJV

So you're saying Christians are under law and must do works in the form of obeying certain commandments?

 

[biblelesson]

So you're saying Christians are under law and must do works in the form of obeying certain commandments?

No!

 

[Buzzard3]

No!

In that case, you're contradicting yourself.

In a previous post, you agreed that Christians are not free to indulge in "works of the flesh" ... which necessarily means Christians are bound by some form of law and commandments that prohibit "works of the flesh".

But now you're saying Christians aren't bound by any law or commandments ... which means they are free to indulge in "works of the flesh".

Make up your mind - you can't have it both ways!

 

[John Mullally]

Because Israel rebelled Christ came: due to Israel’s disobedience, the gentiles can be saved, Romans 11:11 KJV.

No, Christ was promised to come in Genesis 3 before there was an Israel who disobeyed.

Israel was supposed to be a light to the Gentiles (Exodus 19:4-6, Psalms 67, Psalms 96, Psalms 117), but failed die to their unfaithfulness. As a result, Christ came in a way that Israel was not expecting and which was not even explained to the Apostles until after the resurrection. Israel's rebellion and Christ's atonement led ultimately to the gospel (and its message of salvation) going directly to everyone (Jew and Gentile) by Christ's followers - Romans 11:11 supports that.

The verse clearly says due to Israel’s fall. The fall of Israel resulted in their being a curse over the law. Anyone who tries to keep it will suffer that curse - eternal death. The curse is only removed in Christ.

The fall of Israel did not result in the curse of the law. The curse of the law is explained by Moses in Deuteronomy 27 and the blessings of Abraham are described in Deuteronomy 28.

All who sin against the law are cursed by the law (Deuteronomy 27). No one is saved by trying to keep the law. Christ's atonement and believing the Gospel - Mark 16:15-16) redeems us from the curse of the law.

Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.​

Because there is no one recognized outside of Israel - Israel represents the world - you, me, and everybody.

The Gentiles are recognized as being outside Israel - the NT makes that clear. The law affects the Gentiles (Acts 2) - is that what you are trying to say?

You have to study the gospel. Get a good understanding of the gospel of Christ and stop reading the Old Testament for now. 2 Corinthians 3:14 KJV describes you!

If your goal is to be understandable, you need to better craft your posts.

 

[Brightfame52]

If Salvation ever becomes conditioned upon something we must do then how is that not a meritorious work or deed on our part ? If thats the case, how can it be of Grace ? For Paul writes Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

Some teach that ones faith is the condition they must meet for salvation, but if thats true, which its not, then salvation is by our works.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If Salvation ever becomes conditioned upon something we must do then how is that not a meritorious work or deed on our part ? If thats the case, how can it be of Grace ? For Paul writes Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

Some teach that ones faith is the condition they must meet for salvation, but if thats true, which its not, then salvation is by our works.

—Not to mention the logical impossibility for the dead to do an alive thing.

 

[RDKirk]

If Salvation ever becomes conditioned upon something we must do then how is that not a meritorious work or deed on our part ? If thats the case, how can it be of Grace ? For Paul writes Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

Some teach that ones faith is the condition they must meet for salvation, but if thats true, which its not, then salvation is by our works.

No. I've said this earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat it.

Paul introduces the works vs faith argument in Romans, but as he introduces the argument he also specifically defines his terms. He specifically tells us that within his works vs faith argument, faith itself is not a work.

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. -- Romans 4:4,5

It's Paul's argument, and he has defined his terms for it. Paul explicitly excludes faith from what he's calling "work" in this argument.

There's nothing more to be said here.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No. I've said this earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat it.

Paul introduces the works vs faith argument in Romans, but as he introduces the argument he also specifically defines his terms. He specifically tells us that within his works vs faith argument, faith itself is not a work.

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. -- Romans 4:4,5

It's Paul's argument, and he has defined his terms for it. Paul explicitly excludes faith from what he's calling "work" in this argument.

There's nothing more to be said here.

Both of you agree it is not a work of the believer. You have not addressed why it is not a work —to wit, if it is generated by the believer, how is it not a work of the believer?

But if it is generated within the believer, by the gift of the Spirit of God, it cannot be a work of the believer.

 

[RDKirk]

Both of you agree it is not a work of the believer. You have not addressed why it is not a work

I don't care.

 

[zoidar]

Both of you agree it is not a work of the believer. You have not addressed why it is not a work —to wit, if it is generated by the believer, how is it not a work of the believer?

But if it is generated within the believer, by the gift of the Spirit of God, it cannot be a work of the believer.

Hi Mark!

Isn't "faith" like "trust"? If you choose to trust your dad to take you to school tomorrow, would that make trust a work, because you choose/generate trust? Wouldn't work be like if you instead of trusting your dad, you choose to fix your bike and ride it to school instead? To me this is Paul's concept of faith vs works, not how faith is generated.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hi Mark!

Isn't "faith" like "trust"? If you choose to trust your dad to take you to school tomorrow, would that make trust a work, because you choose/generate trust? Wouldn't work be like if you instead of trusting your dad, you choose to fix your bike and ride it to school instead? To me this is Paul's concept of faith vs works, not how faith is generated.

Good to see you again, Zoidar!

I don't know how familiar you are with other languages; I know you live elsewhere. In most languages, I expect, "work" encompasses more than only "effort expended". According to Strong's, the Greek word is, by implication, an act (i.e. "deed"), —in my non-authoritative mind, anything attributable to the person doing it.

To me, not only because I see it in Scripture, but the faith generated by the human, such as the trust one might have in their dad, is not of the nature of salvific faith. In my own life, I am constantly reminded that I am incapable of 'what it takes', but when I consider faith as generated by God, no matter the measure of it, it is fully of the kind of thing needed for 'living water' and the integrity needed to obey the gospel. To me, it makes perfect sense that the choosing is then subsequent to the gift of faith by which we are saved.

"Works" = "deeds", regardless of whether there was effort. It was not hard for God to create, but it was his work. Salvation, which is by faith, is the gift of God, no matter how much activity we think we have put into it. It is not by OUR activity or effort or work or thought or any other doing ("deed") that we are saved, but by the gift of God. It is entirely of grace. The faith is ours, and could even be said to belong to us, but it is because it is done in the individual by the indwelling Spirit of God.

There's quite a bit more to say about it, particularly when dealing with "Total Depravity", but that can wait for another time.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The flip side of this discussion would concern those who willingly choose to believe yet, at the final judgement, find themselves among the goats and not the sheep. In their minds they had saving faith which resulted in works including casting out demons. However, Jesus Christ Himself tells them to depart from Him because he never knew them. This, indeed, is a very hard saying.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The flip side of this discussion would concern those who willingly choose to believe yet, at the final judgement, find themselves among the goats and not the sheep. In their minds they had saving faith which resulted in works including casting out demons. However, Jesus Christ Himself tells them to depart from Him because he never knew them. This, indeed, is a very hard saying.

To me it is remarkable the confusion that comes by the rules people make concerning the mechanics of the works of the Spirit of God. In John 3 Jesus mentions the unaccountability of the Spirit —it goes where it will, and does what it does. In the Old Testament we see Saul caught up in a group of prophets, and there is even an account of an apparently pagan prophet who finds himself encumbered to tell only the truth concerning God. There are mentioned in the New Testament people who are not, apparently, disciples of Jesus, yet they are casting out demons.

The Spirit of God can do anything God pleases, but we want to think that whatever the Spirit does, it must mean that the person involved is saved (or the like). (It's kind of like how we think that whatever goes well does so because God condones it or even has authorized it; "blessed it" is the common terminology).

 

[zoidar]

Good to see you again, Zoidar!

I don't know how familiar you are with other languages; I know you live elsewhere. In most languages, I expect, "work" encompasses more than only "effort expended". According to Strong's, the Greek word is, by implication, an act (i.e. "deed"), —in my non-authoritative mind, anything attributable to the person doing it.

Good to see you as well!

I would say a deed is something external, at least in common language. Climbing a tree is a deed. Thinking about dinner is not a deed. However, the important thing is not how we use the word "deed" or "work", but what Paul means by "work".

To me, not only because I see it in Scripture, but the faith generated by the human, such as the trust one might have in their dad, is not of the nature of salvific faith. In my own life, I am constantly reminded that I am incapable of 'what it takes', but when I consider faith as generated by God, no matter the measure of it, it is fully of the kind of thing needed for 'living water' and the integrity needed to obey the gospel. To me, it makes perfect sense that the choosing is then subsequent to the gift of faith by which we are saved.

"Works" = "deeds", regardless of whether there was effort. It was not hard for God to create, but it was his work. Salvation, which is by faith, is the gift of God, no matter how much activity we think we have put into it. It is not by OUR activity or effort or work or thought or any other doing ("deed") that we are saved, but by the gift of God. It is entirely of grace. The faith is ours, and could even be said to belong to us, but it is because it is done in the individual by the indwelling Spirit of God.

I don't know if I would say God creating the universe was a "deed". It was by His Word. I think this was well put by someone on Quora:

"Thoughts are related to the mind. If those thoughts are actually spoken they become our words. They become deeds if we execute them."

Faith being a gift was not something I intended to refute by my post (or intend to refute). I only wanted to show my understanding of what Paul means or doesn't mean by "works".

There's quite a bit more to say about it, particularly when dealing with "Total Depravity", but that can wait for another time.

Yeah, we better leave it for now.

 

[RDKirk]

(It's kind of like how we think that whatever goes well does so because God condones it or even has authorized it; "blessed it" is the common terminology).

That happens, and it's dangerous when it does.

 

[Brightfame52]

No. I've said this earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat it.

Paul introduces the works vs faith argument in Romans, but as he introduces the argument he also specifically defines his terms. He specifically tells us that within his works vs faith argument, faith itself is not a work.

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. -- Romans 4:4,5

It's Paul's argument, and he has defined his terms for it. Paul explicitly excludes faith from what he's calling "work" in this argument.

There's nothing more to be said here.

If one makes faith a condition for salvation, by default thats salvation by works, forget about salvation by grace.

 

[bbbbbbb]

To me it is remarkable the confusion that comes by the rules people make concerning the mechanics of the works of the Spirit of God. In John 3 Jesus mentions the unaccountability of the Spirit —it goes where it will, and does what it does. In the Old Testament we see Saul caught up in a group of prophets, and there is even an account of an apparently pagan prophet who finds himself encumbered to tell only the truth concerning God. There are mentioned in the New Testament people who are not, apparently, disciples of Jesus, yet they are casting out demons.

The Spirit of God can do anything God pleases, but we want to think that whatever the Spirit does, it must mean that the person involved is saved (or the like). (It's kind of like how we think that whatever goes well does so because God condones it or even has authorized it; "blessed it" is the common terminology).

Quite true. Thank you.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If Salvation ever becomes conditioned upon something we must do then how is that not a meritorious work or deed on our part ? If thats the case, how can it be of Grace ? For Paul writes Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

Some teach that ones faith is the condition they must meet for salvation, but if thats true, which its not, then salvation is by our works.

Believing faith comes from God by the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore it is a work that God does in the penitent person, not a work that the penitent person needs to do to gain salvation.