What are the key issues of US Election 2024?

[QvQ]

he economy did not collapse in 2008
The government did not collapse in 2020
The dollar is strong today.

We have had vandalism, illegal immigration, crime and homelessness for decades. Why is now called chaos?

The best thing to do is to stop listening to whoever is telling you these false things.

You are kidding me, right?
Economic Collapse of 2008: It was among the five worst financial crises the world had experienced and led to a loss of more than $2 trillion from the global economy. (Wikipedia)

I know you know you are making a joke so I do know you do know better.

 

[JustOneWay]

You are kidding me right?
Economic Collapse of 2008: It was among the five worst financial crises the world had experienced and led to a loss of more than $2 trillion from the global economy. (Wikipedia)

I know you know you are making a joke so I do know you do know better.

No joke. The economy did not collapse in 2008. It was categorized as a recession, not even a depression.

Somebody has been lying to you.

 

[QvQ]

No joke. The economy did not collapse in 2008. It was categorized as a recession, not even a depression.

Somebody has been lying to you.

Wiki, Britannica,
Federal Reserve History
The 2007-09 economic crisis was deep and protracted enough to become known as "the Great Recession" and was followed by what was, by some measures, a long but unusually slow recovery.

 

[JustOneWay]

Wiki, Britannica,
Federal Reserve History
The 2007-09 economic crisis was deep and protracted enough to become known as "the Great Recession" and was followed by what was, by some measures, a long but unusually slow recovery.

We have fully recovered from the recession. Wait, we recovered after 18 months.

I remember it well. The republican president at the time sent me money I did not ask for or need.
The economy "CRASHED" so lets send out 168 billion in cash to the people!

Why are you telling us of this 'doom and gloom' as if what happened in 2008 is affecting us today with your "spreading chaos" Chicken Little proclamation?

 

[QvQ]

Why are you telling us of this 'doom and gloom' as if what happened in 2008 is affecting us today with your "spreading chaos" Chicken Little proclamation?

"However, the effects on the overall economy were felt for much longer. The unemployment rate did not return to pre-recession levels until 2014, and it took until 2016 for median household incomes to recover."

Has it recovered? The "recovery" just got wiped out by inflation. The system is unstable. It is propped up by government stimulus and works programs but it is unstable. The Feds are scrambling to avoid deeper recession. And doing everything they can to curb inflation.

Basket case economy propped up by government spending crutches while the Fed Reserve makes frantic attempts to resuscitate.

 

[JustOneWay]

Has it recovered? The "recovery" just got wiped out by inflation. The system is unstable. It is propped up by government stimulus and works programs but it is unstable. The Feds are scrambling to avoid deeper recession. And doing everything they can to curb inflation.

Sounds like a conspiracy.

The recovery from 14 years ago was wiped out by inflation last year.

That is a keeper....

The system is unstable? Do you suggest we abandon cash and return to the barter system? We are not even in a recession today.

 

[Merrill]

We have fully recovered from the recession. Wait, we recovered after 18 months.

I remember it well. The republican president at the time sent me money I did not ask for or need.
The economy "CRASHED" so lets send out 168 billion in cash to the people!

Why are you telling us of this 'doom and gloom' as if what happened in 2008 is affecting us today with your "spreading chaos" Chicken Little proclamation?

I worked in the financial sector during the Financial Crisis in 2007-2008. It was much worse than you think

The government had to resort to TARP/QE and other measures to restore stability to the system. Some countries, like Iceland, saw their entire banking system fail. Millions of jobs were lost, and trillions of dollars in damage was done to the world economy.

People screamed about bank bailouts, but the alternative was a depression. It demonstrated the consequences of leverage, securitization, bad monetary policy, and bad government policy. Interest rates were artificially low, there was reckless lending, speculation, securitization, and the government policy was to put everyone into a home, whether or not they could afford it (both Clinton and Bush followed this expansion in home-ownership policy)

Now the second "crash" we are talking about was 2020. We aren't out of that crisis yet --trillions of dollars in damage was done to the world economy a second time, this time through other means (lockdowns, trade restrictions, business restriction, reckless spending and lending, artificially-low interest rates, etc.). It will take decades to recover from the following:

1. Multiple generations of Americans permanently priced out of the housing market. The housing market is so distorted it could take 10 years to correct.
2. A hurricane of inflation over a 2-3 year period which was the worst in US history, with home prices going up by over 45%, rents soaring, food prices skyrocketing, used cars selling for 50-100% more than 6 months earlier, gas prices going up 30-50%, etc. real wages declining over a 3 year period, etc. This was a consequence of out-of-control government spending, bad Fed policy, etc.
3. A collapse in commercial real-estate which continues to unfold.
4. Accelerated deglobalization

we could easily see another wave of inflation like we did in the late 1970s, leading to more rate hikes, layoffs, and other problems. I don't see any way that we avoid recession in 2024

 

[JustOneWay]

There it is. The country is going down, and there is nothing we can do to stop it.

How is the GREAT RECESSION of 2008 a key issue for 2024?

I can't stop sobbing for America....she was fun while she lasted.

 

[JustOneWay]

Regarding the total collapse of 2008, at least we know that Trump tried to fix the issue by:

"More recently, President Trump rolled back many of the regulatory and reporting provisions of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act for small and medium-sized banks with less than $250 billion in assets.8 Legislators—Republicans and Democrats alike—argued that many of the Dodd-Frank provisions were too constraining on smaller banks and were limiting economic growth.9


This new deregulatory action, coupled with the rise in risky lending and investment practices, could create the economic conditions all too familiar in the time period leading up to the market crash. Fligstein and his co-authors suggest several options to avoid another disaster:"

What Really Caused the Great Recession? – Institute for Research on Labor and Employment

The Great Recession devastated local labor markets and the national economy. Ten years later, Berkeley researchers are finding many of the same red flags blamed

irle.berkeley.edu

MAGA!

 

[Hans Blaster]

Frankly I would rather pay the Interest on Bonds to Foreign governments than give them foreign aid.
That way there is actual trade, China produces goods to sell for dollars to buy bonds and receives interest dollars from the bonds to spend on American products.

I doubt you will find large holdings of US Treasury bonds in the central banks of countries that receive significant foreign aid.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Far right talking points like this are spoken all the time. Other posts in this very thread mention other similar false claims, such as the election being stolen or made up "facts" about the economy.

It is interesting there's a significant block of voters who fall for them. But if we're talking about things that might shift the results of the election, this seems to be a non starter given these types of low information voters aren't likely to switch parties any time soon.

Neither party is loved, but I would not say this is propaganda or a false claim. Nor is it a fake far-right taking point. It is Gallup.

 

[USincognito]

1. Multiple generations of Americans permanently priced out of the housing market. The housing market is so distorted it could take 10 years to correct.

Part of that is homebuilders building McMansions rather than starter homes for young people and new families.

2. A hurricane of inflation over a 2-3 year period which was the worst in US history, with home prices going up by over 45%, rents soaring, food prices skyrocketing, used cars selling for 50-100% more than 6 months earlier, gas prices going up 30-50%, etc. real wages declining over a 3 year period, etc. This was a consequence of out-of-control government spending, bad Fed policy, etc.

The inflation seen in 2021 and 2022 wasn't even the worst in my lifetime. Inflation never went above 10%, while from 79-81 inflation was never below 10%.
Government spending has nothing to do with housing prices.
Government spending has nothing to do with rent prices.
Government spending has little to do with grocery prices.
Government spending has nothing to do with gas prices.

we could easily see another wave of inflation like we did in the late 1970s, leading to more rate hikes, layoffs, and other problems. I don't see any way that we avoid recession in 2024

So you're admitting that the inflation from 79-81 was worse than we had from 21-22?

 

[USincognito]

Neither party is loved, but I would not say this is propaganda or a false claim. Nor is it a fake far-right taking point. It is Gallup.

View attachment 340560

Looks like the parties are about even. Kind of blows up your narrative.

 

[QvQ]

The inflation seen in 2021 and 2022 wasn't even the worst in my lifetime. Inflation never went above 10%, while from 79-81 inflation was never below 10%.
Government spending has nothing to do with housing prices.
Government spending has nothing to do with rent prices.
Government spending has little to do with grocery prices.
Government spending has nothing to do with gas prices.

Cooking The Books
Inflation in housing, rent, grocery and gas is volatile.
In 79-81, the official inflation included the price of everything
Then there is "core inflation" the price of washing machines, furniture.
In the 90's the government started measuring by Core Inflation, which is everything except food and energy.
However when the price of gasoline is 69% higher this month than last month, it is doubtful whether a person will drive to the store and be enticed to buy, especially on credit, a shiny new appliance or a new sofa.
Therefore the price of those items will stay the same or even go down.
The Core Inflation might be lower because of the actual inflation.
And it makes official government numbers look so much better.

 

[Merrill]

Part of that is homebuilders building McMansions rather than starter homes for young people and new families.

The inflation seen in 2021 and 2022 wasn't even the worst in my lifetime. Inflation never went above 10%, while from 79-81 inflation was never below 10%.
Government spending has nothing to do with housing prices.
Government spending has nothing to do with rent prices.
Government spending has little to do with grocery prices.
Government spending has nothing to do with gas prices.

So you're admitting that the inflation from 79-81 was worse than we had from 21-22?

Show me a 2 year period in the 1970s where home prices increased 47%

Were rents doubling year-over-year in the 1970s? When did used car prices exceed the cost of new cars?

The biggest inflation spikes we have had in the last 60 years were in 1972 to 1974 and 1976 to 1980 when the rate jumped by over 300%. The inflation surge from November 2020 to June 2022 was the largest in history (1.2 to 9.1%)

I am old enough to remember the 1970s --the inflation was bad, but what happened in the period above was beyond even that.

Now the peak inflation rate of the 1980s was higher, but that is not what I said.

It took a very aggressive Federal Reserve to get this situation under control --and I am still not convinced we won't see another surge of inflation, just like we did in the late 1970s.

Your general statement about government spending not contributing to inflation is flat-out-wrong, and the Chicago School of Economics, with its Nobel Prizes, would like to talk to you about that. Government spending is basically stimulus, and it increases the M1 money supply. The more money in the system, the more inflation. So government spending indirectly contributes to prices

Also note that Biden wanted to spend trillions of dollars more than what was actually spent in his first 2 years of office. He was held back by Manchin and others. If Biden had gotten all the spending he wanted, inflation would be double-digits right now, and the Fed funds rate would be like 7%.

 

[QvQ]

The inflation seen in 2021 and 2022 wasn't even the worst in my lifetime. Inflation never went above 10%, while from 79-81 inflation was never below 10%.

Official Numbers: vs Actual
1) 2% a year inflation Official
2) 250% since 1990 Actual

There has not been a 250% increase in production in the past 30 years.
37% of GDP is government spending.
The service sector is 77% of GDP,. Industry is 18%. of GDP
We are taking in each others wash.

 

[QvQ]

The system is unstable? Do you suggest we abandon cash and return to the barter system?

You have a very good point
Money is the medium of exchange. The government manufactures the money. So how can the government circulate that money?
That is the key to understanding economic system that can be labeled capitalist, communist or feudal.
Simple Description:
1) Capitalist: The government loans money to banks. That money is loaned through banks to private parties The money must be repaid with interest. (It is a "production" economy owned by the citizens. Instead of personal gold as wealth in the vault, there is money)
2) Communist: Barter system, a person is assigned a house and given necessities A person is assigned work and the produce of that work is allocated according to government formulas. (Russia did not force labor thus failed. China does force labor. No work, no eat, very productive system)
3) Feudal: Money is manufactured according to a formula and is distributed through administrative agencies. America includes the capitalist model but most money is distributed and thus circulated through administrative agencies, grants, subsidies, work projects, entitlements, administrative wages and costs etc. (37% of the GDP is government spending. That money is distributed through the various agencies)

 

[Hans Blaster]

Official Numbers: vs Actual
1) 2% a year inflation Official
2) 250% since 1990 Actual

Based on WHAT? Show your source.

 

[QvQ]

Based on WHAT? Show your source

The price that was paid for a bag of groceries in the movie "Home Alone" was recently in the news. That bag of groceries was $19.83. That same bag of groceries in 2023 is $72.28.

There are many sites that reported this story. A google search of the subject is better than a single link

That inflation does not include houses (then $60,000, now $250,00) or the price of automobiles. The current price for a vehicle is $50,000, for example so it is across the board inflation.

There are also online calculators. . However, the CPI is not calculated the same in 2023 as it was in 1990.
Those are also found using Keyword "How much was the dollar worth in 1990" or "inflation 1990 - 2023"

How much a dollar would buy in any given year compared to current prices is a factor of significance to historians and economist obviously so the information is readily available.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The price that was paid for a bag of groceries in the movie "Home Alone" was recently in the news. That bag of groceries was $19.83. That same bag of groceries in 2023 is $72.28.

That might be an even dumber measure than the traditional "cost of a turkey dinner for 6" or "the full cost of the 12 days of Christmas" and those are pretty dumb.

There are many sites that reported this story. A google search of the subject is better than a single link

It really wouldn't. Some ad hoc collection of items and a price based on a movie script really don't hold sway.

There are also online calculators. . However, the CPI is not calculated the same in 2023 as it was in 1990.
Those are also found using Keyword "How much was the dollar worth in 1990" or "inflation 1990 - 2023"

How much a dollar would buy in any given year compared to current prices is a factor of significance to historians and economist obviously so the information is readily available.

I am generally aware of how inflation works on purchasing power. There are reasons economists don't use "bag of movie groceries" as a measure of inflation.