Baptism is a work.

[Strong in Him]

Israel must be saved first, before gentiles can be reached.

But Israel isn't saved, and millions of Gentiles have heard the Gospel.

 

[Oneofhope]

Perhaps the clue is found in Luke version of the GC as well as ot prophetic timetable in places like Isaiah 60:1-5

Israel must be saved first, before gentiles can be reached.

Would that be acceptable?

I'm not sure of your discussion, but I wanted to ask of what translation you use, as mine doesn't even mention Israel in Isaiah 60:1-5. The focus, however is the Light of God, who is Christ, and that God extends His Grace to them just as the Blessed Jews.

As far as Israel being saved before or after the Gentiles, here is one passage that offers an idea:

Paul, speaking to Gentiles:
Romans 11:25 NLT - "I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ."

 

[ViaCrucis]

To confirm, from this paragraph, you believe one can take the mark of the beast, and if he asked God later to forgive him for doing that, he can still be righteous later?

Righteousness is a gift from God. We aren't righteous, but out of God's compassion toward us sinners He sent His Son, born of the Virgin Mary, who lived, suffered, died, and rose again. Jesus is righteous, we are unrighteous. By grace God gives us, as pure gift, the righteousness of His own Son, imputing to us Christ's righteousness. We are, therefore, declared righteous on Christ's account, as an act of Divine Mercy, because God loves us and wishes, desires, and wills that all have redemption.

Can a Christian, therefore, having fallen into total apostasy and made shipwreck of their faith later be reconciled again back to Christ? Yes, of course, the Scriptures declare the Good News of Jesus toward sinners. That the God who made earth and sea and stars, who lovingly crafted human beings in His own Divine Image and likeness wills our salvation, that's why He sent His Son, that is the biblical story: God wants to heal, restore, save, redeem His good creation. Since we are the ones who messed up and broke the world, the fixing of the world means fixing us. And so lost and estranged sinners are called and given faith through the Gospel, in Word and Sacrament God comes down and meets us with His grace and love, to give us faith, to declare us just on Christ's account, to forgive us all our sins, cleanse us, heal us, to heal us. To restore in us that which was broken. We are being conformed to the image of Christ in order that the image and likeness of God be restored to us--and the day will come when, even in our bodies we shall be made whole--the dead shall rise. And that is true not only of the sinner who has heard the Gospel for the first time and, by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit, believes; it is just as true for us who now believe when we hear the Gospel. And should we, like prodigal sons or a wayward lost lamb, curse our Father or abandon the Shepherd, we have One who not only rushes out to meet us when we show up over the horizon and clothes us again with the finest robes and embraces us, but who searches over high mountains, searches low valleys, to pick us up over His shoulders and carry us back to the safety of the sheepfold.

It is written,

"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 8:38-39

The love of God does not fail.

We may throw our inheritance at God's face, like the prodigal did to his father, and we may end up dwelling in mud and filth with pigs, eating what they eat. And truly, if we remain in that we have forfeited our inheritance. But our Heavenly Father has a house, and there is a room there for us if only we return. He will rush out to meet us, rush out to clean us, rush out to clothe us. The Banquet Feast has tables, with chairs and seating, room for all who would come and be dressed for the Feast. The Lord shall clothe us with Himself (Galatians 3:27), that we abide in Him, He is the Vine, we are the branches. Remaining in Him we live, cutting ourselves off we wither and die. By grace alone He calls us, by grace alone He secures us, by grace alone He keeps us, and by grace alone we shall pass through judgment to eternal life.

There is no sinner on earth for whom the Gospel is not for.
There is no sinner who is outside God's loving compassion in Christ.
In all things it is the will and desire of God that we sinners believe, repent, and have eternal life.
From Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 that is the declaration of the entire Bible: Jesus Christ has come to save sinners and to rescue the world.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rturner76]

Although baptism is not a work, that is, in the same manner as the works of the law, baptism was not only given to Israel. All are to be baptized,
Matthew 28:19 KJV
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

So we see baptism is a command, not works. Works as defined in James, is a show of faith after we are saved.

John 1:31 KJV
“And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.”

The reason Jesus was manifest to Israel was because Jesus could not break the Old Testament law. Jesus being a Jew, operated under the Old Testament laws that was in force at that time. The Jews were under those laws, not the Gentiles, so because of what the law demanded, Jews could not communicate with Gentiles.

That’s what this verse is about:
Matthew 15:22-26 KJV
22 “And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.”
23 “But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.”
24 “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
25 “Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.”
26 “But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.”

But, because of her faith, He healed her daughter,
Matthew 15:27-28 KJV
27 “And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.”
28 “Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

This faith points to the faith of the New Testament.

It was only after Jesus death that the Gentiles could be saved because Jesus death brought in the New Testament whereby all can be saved.

If you notice, Matthew 28:19 KJV, is after Jesus death and resurrection where He could now offer baptism to all because at that point the Old Testament had ended; His death brought in the New Testament.

Well said and proven through scripture!

 

[rturner76]

Righteousness is a gift from God. We aren't righteous, but out of God's compassion toward us sinners He sent His Son, born of the Virgin Mary, who lived, suffered, died, and rose again. Jesus is righteous, we are unrighteous. By grace God gives us, as pure gift, the righteousness of His own Son, imputing to us Christ's righteousness. We are, therefore, declared righteous on Christ's account, as an act of Divine Mercy, because God loves us and wishes, desires, and wills that all have redemption.

Can a Christian, therefore, having fallen into total apostasy and made shipwreck of their faith later be reconciled again back to Christ? Yes, of course, the Scriptures declare the Good News of Jesus toward sinners. That the God who made earth and sea and stars, who lovingly crafted human beings in His own Divine Image and likeness wills our salvation, that's why He sent His Son, that is the biblical story: God wants to heal, restore, save, redeem His good creation. Since we are the ones who messed up and broke the world, the fixing of the world means fixing us. And so lost and estranged sinners are called and given faith through the Gospel, in Word and Sacrament God comes down and meets us with His grace and love, to give us faith, to declare us just on Christ's account, to forgive us all our sins, cleanse us, heal us, to heal us. To restore in us that which was broken. We are being conformed to the image of Christ in order that the image and likeness of God be restored to us--and the day will come when, even in our bodies we shall be made whole--the dead shall rise. And that is true not only of the sinner who has heard the Gospel for the first time and, by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit, believes; it is just as true for us who now believe when we hear the Gospel. And should we, like prodigal sons or a wayward lost lamb, curse our Father or abandon the Shepherd, we have One who not only rushes out to meet us when we show up over the horizon and clothes us again with the finest robes and embraces us, but who searches over high mountains, searches low valleys, to pick us up over His shoulders and carry us back to the safety of the sheepfold.

It is written,

"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 8:38-39

The love of God does not fail.

We may throw our inheritance at God's face, like the prodigal did to his father, and we may end up dwelling in mud and filth with pigs, eating what they eat. And truly, if we remain in that we have forfeited our inheritance. But our Heavenly Father has a house, and there is a room there for us if only we return. He will rush out to meet us, rush out to clean us, rush out to clothe us. The Banquet Feast has tables, with chairs and seating, room for all who would come and be dressed for the Feast. The Lord shall clothe us with Himself (Galatians 3:27), that we abide in Him, He is the Vine, we are the branches. Remaining in Him we live, cutting ourselves off we wither and die. By grace alone He calls us, by grace alone He secures us, by grace alone He keeps us, and by grace alone we shall pass through judgment to eternal life.

There is no sinner on earth for whom the Gospel is not for.
There is no sinner who is outside God's loving compassion in Christ.
In all things it is the will and desire of God that we sinners believe, repent, and have eternal life.
From Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 that is the declaration of the entire Bible: Jesus Christ has come to save sinners and to rescue the world.

-CryptoLutheran

Wow, are you a Preacher? Because that would make for a good sermon. Got me a little teary-eyed thinking about how God redeems us even when we reject him and come crawling back, he enthusiastically redeems us like the Prodigal Son. That is offered to the whole world, not just Catholics or Protestants, but anyone who seeks him will find him (or he finds us).

 

[rturner76]

But Israel isn't saved, and millions of Gentiles have heard the Gospel.

From my interpretation of scripture, I believe that the Old Testament was not thrown out with the New. The nation of Israel will be saved IF they follow the letter of the law. As Christians, we are no longer bound by the letter but the spirit of the Law. So though Israel has a longer row to ho, God will accept them if they prove that they are worthy. After all, it was Israel that brought us Christ who preached the Torah everywhere he went.

 

[Oneofhope]

Thank you for sharing your testimony. I can totally see your point of view in that many churches hid the true meaning of scripture

I just wanted to share with you my feelings on Catholicism. I believe like I gleaned from your post that no church is perfect, only God and his finished work through Jesus Christ. I have certainly had my trials (and continue to) which have brought me to my knees in bewilderment,

About baptism, I don't believe that being baptized will save a person's soul in and of itself but I believe that going through that is an outward expression of one's faith and it's our introduction to God's family by washing away your old life and publically proclaiming one's newly found faith and embracing the Lord's way of life. It;s a physical manifestation of our repentance. which is our renouncement of sin and acceptance of a new way of Life,

I was not raised in the Catholic Church. I chose it because if one lives near a large Parosh, Mass is available five times daily including the ability to accept the gift of the Eucharist every day up to five times a day and even when I was a kid and not Catholic communion was always my favorite part of Sunday service. To be given the gift of taking the Lord Jesus Christ physically into my body literally gives me a natural high. My heart flutters and I can get all teary-eyed because I know I'm not worthy of taking the Lord our God into my body but he has made his body and blood available to me. I ended up on the Catholic side because instead of the first Sunday of the month (the way I grew up, like I said it's available every day up to 5 times a day. No matter their doctrine or Pope, I love communion. It makes me feel whole and happy.

I can always do the study and the theology on my own but I can only get the physical body and blood of Jesus Christ from The Communion bread

I wanted to share my testimony as you so graciously shared yours. I thank you for walking me through the obstacles that St Peter faced and how he eventually came around to understand the spiritual circumcision that we all must accept and apply to our lives.

You are most welcome, and thank you for sharing all that you offered above. Much respect to you.

There is no indication that Peter ever truly understood the doctrine of Spiritual Circumcision, yet I know for a fact that he did. It would be 100% utterly impossible for him not to be aware of such a teaching, for Stephen gives us its first teaching in Acts 7. If Stephen was aware of what it meant to have uncircumcised ears and hearts, Peter did as well.

I used to come down very hard on Peter . . . at one point I was ashamed of him. However, over the years I have come to recognize that the entire Bible is a demonstration of God being in control. God controls people, groups of people, entire armies, entire Nations, animals, and He even controls the dead things of this world, like water, the earth, rocks . . . all things are under the Lord's Plan and all things are being done according to what it is written in His Heavenly Scroll.

Knowing now that all things have been caused to happen exactly as Planned, I can no longer be critical of Peter, but more . . . be amazed by the Power of God that He alone is capable of causing people to think and act exactly as they have and do.

 

[Strong in Him]

From my interpretation of scripture, I believe that the Old Testament was not thrown out with the New.

If you mean that the OT was not thrown out when the NT came in, I agree.
The OT makes up more than half our Bible, contains revelation and teaching about God, and prophecies about Jesus' coming.

The nation of Israel will be saved IF they follow the letter of the law.

But no one ever could keep the letter of the law - that's why Jesus came.

As Christians, we are no longer bound by the letter but the spirit of the Law.

As Gentiles we never were BOUND by the law.
It wasn't for us. It was for God's people - those he rescued from Egypt - to show them how to live holy lives and show others that they were his people. If a Gentile wanted to become one of God's people, they had to convert, be circumcised and be subject to the law.

When I say "law", the 10 commandments are an exception because they were taught and affirmed by Jesus, who also summed them up, saying "love God and love your neighbour."
Of course, he also went much further because he told us to love as he loves us - and that love took him to the cross.

So though Israel has a longer row to ho, God will accept them if they prove that they are worthy.

Jesus died for sinners. ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory; all are unworthy.
We never could, and never will be able to, do enough to prove we are worthy of God's love. That would make his love and grace conditional and would go against what Jesus taught in Matthew 5:44-48; don't only love those who till love you back - even pagans do that.

After all, it was Israel that brought us Christ who preached the Torah everywhere he went.

He didn't preach the Torah; he preached the Kingdom.
The Torah said "an eye for an eye", Jesus said not to resist an evil person; give when they want something from you. They want your shirt? Give them your coat too.
The Torah said it was wrong to commit adultery; Jesus said it was wrong to even look at a woman lustfully. (And when he was presented with an adulteress, he refused to condemn her.)
The Torah taught ritual cleansing; Jesus defended his disciples when they did not do this, and said that it's not what goes into the mouth which makes someone unclean.
The Torah taught the Sabbath, and even that anyone who didn't keep it should be stoned. Jesus healed and did good on the Sabbath, though he was accused of breaking it.
The Torah taught circumcision. Moses was nearly killed by God because he hadn't been circumcised. Jesus didn't teach circumcision.

 

[bling]

Baptism an act of worship? How do you arrive at that conclusion?

Wow, I have never been asked that before.

What is worship?

Was Jesus always worshipping?

Van worship is spelled out as being, offering up to God obedience to human commands, so would

Offering up to God obedience to His commands be worship?

 

[rturner76]

You are most welcome, and thank you for sharing all that you offered above. Much respect to you.

There is no indication that Peter ever truly understood the doctrine of Spiritual Circumcision, yet I know for a fact that he did. It would be 100% utterly impossible for him not to be aware of such a teaching, for Stephen gives us its first teaching in Acts 7. If Stephen was aware of what it meant to have uncircumcised ears and hearts, Peter did as well.

I used to come down very hard on Peter . . . at one point I was ashamed of him. However, over the years I have come to recognize that the entire Bible is a demonstration of God being in control. God controls people, groups of people, entire armies, entire Nations, animals, and He even controls the dead things of this world, like water, the earth, rocks . . . all things are under the Lord's Plan and all things are being done according to what it is written in His Heavenly Scroll.

Knowing now that all things have been caused to happen exactly as Planned, I can no longer be critical of Peter, but more . . . be amazed by the Power of God that He alone is capable of causing people to think and act exactly as they have and do.

Even though St Peter wasn't a perfect man, like you said, he had a role to play in God's plan. Even if that is to illustrate how one can be mistaken in their interpretation of God's plan and come back to be a great church builder. I see Peter as being the founder of the Church of Rome which ended up converting most of the Western World. So he made his mistakes, messed up, sinned, and preached hypocrisy, but he turned it around to be a great influence on the Christian world. I believe many of us have a similar journey being led astray, making assumptions, and even misinterpreting scripture. However, if we stick with it, learn from many teachers and study scripture for ourselves, we are able to obtain a measure of success as the followers of Christ. I surely have taken a lesson from you that was based on scripture. I had Peter up on a pedestal above all other Apostles but even he had some things yet to learn and apply to his life and his ministry after Christ ascended and before he was martyred.

 

[rturner76]

But no one ever could keep the letter of the law - that's why Jesus came.

I don't believe that any Israelite can follow the law in 100% completion but I do believe that if an Israelite's good geeds outweigh their bad deeds, God will show mercy. As Christians we have been gifted with the redemption of Christ. I believe that the nation of Isreal may be rewarded because they are the chosen people who brought us the Christ who came to save the whole world.

He didn't preach the Torah; he preached the Kingdom.
The Torah said "an eye for an eye", Jesus said not to resist an evil person; give when they want something from you. They want your shirt? Give them your coat too.
The Torah said it was wrong to commit adultery; Jesus said it was wrong to even look at a woman lustfully. (And when he was presented with an adulteress, he refused to condemn her.)
The Torah taught ritual cleansing; Jesus defended his disciples when they did not do this, and said that it's not what goes into the mouth which makes someone unclean.
The Torah taught the Sabbath, and even that anyone who didn't keep it should be stoned. Jesus healed and did good on the Sabbath, though he was accused of breaking it.
The Torah taught circumcision. Moses was nearly killed by God because he hadn't been circumcised. Jesus didn't teach circumcision.

He DID preach Torah from my understanding when he went missing and was found at the temple preaching to the Jews there and teaching. Jesus made God available to both Jews and Gentiles. He had to simplify the Law in order to convert the world into monotheism. He preached the spirit of the Law in the New Testament but I believe that when he preached to the Jewish community he may have preached the Law of Moses to them. Growing up a Jew, I believe he was subject to Mosaic Law until he was Baptized and came into the fullness of his ministry.

I believe that is also why he consulted with Moses on the night before his passion.

 

[Strong in Him]

I don't believe that any Israelite can follow the law in 100% completion but I do believe that if an Israelite's good geeds outweigh their bad deeds, God will show mercy.

If a person has genuinely had no opportunity to hear, or respond to, the Gospel; then, yes.
But good deeds are not an alternative to Jesus; it's not a matter of "well you rejected Jesus/didn't want to believe in him, so your deeds will decide whether or not you are saved".

I believe that the nation of Isreal may be rewarded because they are the chosen people who brought us the Christ who came to save the whole world.

The message of the OT is that being God's chosen doesn't give you a licence to live/do as you please. Jews still need to hear that Jesus is their Messiah. The NT does not say "the wages of sin is death .................. except for the Jews, who will get let off because Jesus was Jewish."

He DID preach Torah from my understanding when he went missing and was found at the temple preaching to the Jews there and teaching.

He wasn't preaching to them, he was listening and asking questions, Luke 2:46.

Jesus made God available to both Jews and Gentiles. He had to simplify the Law in order to convert the world into monotheism. He preached the spirit of the Law in the New Testament but I believe that when he preached to the Jewish community he may have preached the Law of Moses to them.

Jesus lived in Israel - he preached, and taught, almost exclusively the Jewish community.
But he didn't preach circumcision, keeping the hygiene laws etc.

Growing up a Jew, I believe he was subject to Mosaic Law

Yes, he was. But he didn't preach it.
If he had, the Pharisees would not have been so against him or tried to find fault with him. Jesus did not say that the law was done with - he said that he had come to fulfil it. But he didn't preach circumcision or say "come to me, keep all the Jewish laws and you will have eternal life."

I believe that is also why he consulted with Moses on the night before his passion.

He didn't consult with Moses; Moses and Elijah were talking with him about his death, Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4, Luke 9:30-31.
Moses and Elijah represented the law and the prophets, which Jesus fulfilled, Luke 24:27.

 

[Oneofhope]

Even though St Peter wasn't a perfect man, like you said, he had a role to play in God's plan. Even if that is to illustrate how one can be mistaken in their interpretation of God's plan and come back to be a great church builder. I see Peter as being the founder of the Church of Rome which ended up converting most of the Western World. So he made his mistakes, messed up, sinned, and preached hypocrisy, but he turned it around to be a great influence on the Christian world. I believe many of us have a similar journey being led astray, making assumptions, and even misinterpreting scripture. However, if we stick with it, learn from many teachers and study scripture for ourselves, we are able to obtain a measure of success as the followers of Christ. I surely have taken a lesson from you that was based on scripture. I had Peter up on a pedestal above all other Apostles but even he had some things yet to learn and apply to his life and his ministry after Christ ascended and before he was martyred.

Great post. And yes, I highly recommend that you lean upon God as you interpret Scripture. I wouldn't turn to commentary unless there is a passage that you simply cannot grasp. I am very hesitant to depend upon humans for understanding Scripture, but lean more upon God and His Spirit to teach, lead, and guide. Trusting in humans is generally not a good idea.

I definitely do not place Peter on a high pedestal. He really struggled and it seems that he didn't write much, either. From Scripture alone, I don't see how anyone could place Peter on a pedestal . . . he seemed more like a pain in the neck than anything else. Leading people astray from the Lord is an extremely serious thing to do.

Mark 9:42 NKJV - "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea."

 

[rturner76]

If a person has genuinely had no opportunity to hear, or respond to, the Gospel; then, yes.
But good deeds are not an alternative to Jesus; it's not a matter of "well you rejected Jesus/didn't want to believe in him, so your deeds will decide whether or not you are saved"

I see it like we are going to a court with a judge because we WILL be judges. If you are with Jesus, you have the ultimate lawyer who will always convince the judge (God) to find to not guilty. No one advises that someone go to court and represent themselves, however of the people that do, some are found not guilty. Most aren't

The message of the OT is that being God's chosen doesn't give you a licence to live/do as you please

Exactly, that is why they follow the law "faith alone" would seem to imply that you DO have license to do as you please and still be found "not guilty."

He wasn't preaching to them, he was listening and asking questions, Luke 2:46.

So then he wanted to learn more about Levitical law and how it's implied? All they had was Torah at that point so what did he want to be taught at Temple? Was it the free gift of salvation? Still there are also prophesies about his coming so maybe he was listening and asking questions about that. Does it say in the text?

Jesus lived in Israel - he preached, and taught, almost exclusively the Jewish community.
But he didn't preach circumcision, keeping the hygiene laws etc.

I was under the impression that Jesus said in Matthew 5: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

If he had, the Pharisees would not have been so against him or tried to find fault with him.

I thought that he was executed for claiming to be the Messiah which the Pharisees told the Roman authorities that Jesus was claiming to be king of the Jews.

He didn't consult with Moses; Moses and Elijah were talking with him about his death,

Usually when I talk about what my future looks like with someone I consider it a consultation. Maybe I have misinterpreted what a consultation is.

 

[Strong in Him]

I see it like we are going to a court with a judge because we WILL be judges. If you are with Jesus, you have the ultimate lawyer who will always convince the judge (God) to find to not guilty.

But Jesus doesn't "convince God to find us not guilty."
We ARE guilty - but if we have received Jesus, believed that he died for us and that through him we are reconciled to God, Romans 5:11 and confessed our sins, we are forgiven, 1 John 1:9.

If the devil tries to accuse us, God declares us to be not guilty, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:31.

So then he wanted to learn more about Levitical law and how it's implied?

We don't know what he was asking questions about.

I was under the impression that Jesus said in Matthew 5: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

He did.
He said that to the Pharisees - those who were under, and obeyed, the law. He was reassuring them that he would not do away with the law, but would fulfil it.
But he did not teach Gentiles "you must obey, and be under, the law; believe in me, but also be circumcised." That's the false teaching that was being taught after the resurrection and the Apostles had to counter, Acts 15:1-2.See also Galatians 5:1-12.

I thought that he was executed for claiming to be the Messiah which the Pharisees told the Roman authorities that Jesus was claiming to be king of the Jews.

He was arrested for claiming to be God.
The Jewish punishment for blasphemy, according to their law, was stoning, Leviticus 24:14, John 8:58-59, John 10:30-31. But because they were occupied by the Romans, they were not allowed to put people to death, John 18:31. They needed Rome to do it, so they claimed that Jesus was guilty of treason, John 19:12. They also declared loyalty to Caesar, John 19:15. This was hypocritical because Caesar was regarded as a god and the Jews would not even take coins bearing his image into the temple. (Hence the money lenders who stood outside, changing the coins.)

Usually when I talk about what my future looks like with someone I consider it a consultation. Maybe I have misinterpreted what a consultation is.

Jesus, Moses and Elijah were speaking about Jesus' death, or "departure", Luke 9:31.
It doesn't say that Jesus was speaking to them about his future. He had already spoken about his resurrection, Mark 8:31 - he knew what was going to happen.

 

[rturner76]

We don't know what he was asking questions about.

Exactly, so why would you claim to know?

He said that to the Pharisees - those who were under, and obeyed, the law. He was reassuring them that he would not do away with the law, but would fulfil it.
But he did not teach Gentiles "you must obey, and be under, the law; believe in me, but also be circumcised." That's the false teaching that was being taught after the resurrection and the Apostles had to counter, Acts 15:1-2.See also Galatians 5:1-12.

Exactly, Jesus never went to the Gentiles, Paul did.

They needed Rome to do it, so they claimed that Jesus was guilty of treason,

Exactly, they falsely claimed that Jesus said he was the King

Jesus, Moses and Elijah were speaking about Jesus' death, or "departure", Luke 9:31.
It doesn't say that Jesus was speaking to them about his future. He had already spoken about his resurrection, Mark 8:31 - he knew what was going to happen.

Exactly, had it happened or was it going to happen in the near future? Discussing one's futer with another is a consultation.

Consultation:
a meeting with an expert or professional, such as a medical doctor, in order to seek advice.

If the devil tries to accuse us, God declares us to be not guilty,

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” Jesus also being part of the trinity declares us not guilty to his Father, therefore we are not guilty. However, Jesus is our advocate which is the same thing that a lawyer is in court.

 

[Strong in Him]

Exactly, so why would you claim to know?

I don't claim to know.
You said that when Jesus went missing, he was found in the temple preaching to the Jews and teaching. (Post #431)
I said that he wasn't teaching the Torah he was asking questions, and you said "so he wanted to know more about the Levitical law ...?" (Post #434).
Where, in any of that, did I say "I know what questions Jesus was asking the teachers when he was in the Temple at the age of 12."?

Exactly, they falsely claimed that Jesus said he was the King

It would have been treason to claim he was a king - he claimed to be God.

Exactly, had it happened or was it going to happen in the near future? Discussing one's futer with another is a consultation.

Consultation:
a meeting with an expert or professional, such as a medical doctor, in order to seek advice.

You think the Son of God had to ask Moses and Elijah for advice?

 

[Fervent]

Refusing baptism is a work. Prayer is work. Baptism is a work. Giving to charity is a work. Eating is a work. Drinking is a work. Getting dressed is a work. Because we are saved by faith, does that mean we shouldn't perform works? Or that our works will not confess our salvation? Should we refuse to follow Christ's instructions, out of fear of performing a work? Or should we follow Christ's instruction, because we have faith that He has the words of life?

When Peter says "baptism now saves you," he's not being hyperbolic. Baptism saves the faithful, not by some magic of the water or through the ritual of being spoken over and dunked or sprinkled but because baptism takes faith. For the one who doesn't have faith, baptism just gets them wet. But to the one who has faith in what baptism symbolizes, they are united with Christ in baptism and so it saves them. So the fact that it is a work is of no consequence, because works that are done in faith justify us and thus save us.

 

[rturner76]

Where, in any of that, did I say "I know what questions Jesus was asking the teachers when he was in the Temple at the age of 12."?

If I misunderstood, I apologize. I thought you were claiming to know what happened there.

It would have been treason to claim he was a king - he claimed to be God.

He didn't claim to be king to the Romans from my understanding of Luke 22:70 and John 18:37.

You think the Son of God had to ask Moses and Elijah for advice?

Why would he summon Moses and Elijah? To preach to them? Perhaps he wanted to consult them (as previously defined). He is God but he was also human.

 

[Fervent]

Why would he summon Moses and Elijah? To preach to them? Perhaps he wanted to consult them (as previously defined). He is God but he was also human.

Consult seems like an inappropriate term, since it implies they were planning how Jesus should act. What I imagine is that Jesus summoned Moses and Elijah so that they could rejoice together over what was to come, to celebrate the nearness of His victory and share in the excitement to prepare Him for the trials He would endure. At least, something along those lines rather than Jesus consulting them to figure out how to proceed.