Baptism is a work.

[Guojing]

Of course he wasn't joking; he just didn't encapsulate the whole Gospel in those 2 verses.

A person cannot be born again without the Holy Spirit.
Without being born again, a person cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
Elsewhere, Paul has written whole passages/chapters about the Holy Spirit and life in the Spirit. Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, Ephesians 1:3-14 etc. Yet here he doesn't even mention the Spirit here.
That's what I was saying.


If you say that you are born again, that was the work of the Holy Spirit.
If you believe that Jesus, who was both God and man, died for your sins and reconciled you to God, that was the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads people to Jesus.
If you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, that is the work of the Holy Spirit.
If you believe you are a child of God and will be with him one day, that is the work of the Spirit, who was given as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:13-14
The Holy Spirit even inspired God's word to be written; Paul had already told the Corinthians that the things he taught, and wrote, were revealed to him by the Spirit.

It's not possible to come to God, confess your sin, be born again, become a new creation and read God's word without the work, and involvement, of the Holy Spirt.
If you can say 'yes' to any of the above, the Spirit is in your life and is part of your faith whether you believe you are following John 3, or not.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does NOT say; "this is the entire Gospel, there is nothing else."
Like I say, Paul has already written loads about the Spirit, life in the Spirit, the role of the Spirit and so on. I don't know why he didn't mention the Spirit here, but that doesn't mean that he is not important or that Paul denied his role.
Paul doesn't mention Jesus' return in this passage, yet writes about it elsewhere. Was Paul forgetful, a hypocrite or did he contradict himself, maybe deliberately, to confuse everyone?

He did say, "by this gospel you are saved", and then explains what that gospel he preached to us is.

When he say saved, should I believe him?

 

[Strong in Him]

He did say, "by this gospel you are saved", and then explains what that gospel he preached to us is.

When he say saved, should I believe him?

We are saved if we believe that Christ died for our sins and that he was raised from the dead.
It is not possible to believe that without the Holy Spirit working in our lives.

Before a person comes to Christ and believes in him, they are spiritually dead. Even if they think of themselves as a good person, they are separated from God by sin.
A person cannot become spiritually alive, reborn, a new creation without the Spirit. Not possible. Even if they have never heard of the Spirit, received him and asked to be filled, the Spirit has been active in their lives, bringing them to Christ and to faith. Paul writes about this elsewhere. Romans 8:7-8 says that a person cannot come to God without the Spirit, - "the mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God." He says that a person cannot belong to God except through the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:9. This is true, even for people who think they are good people, but do not believe in Jesus; atheists, humanists, cult/occult members etc can certainly not have a change of heart, or mind, without the Holy Spirit. No one who is spiritually dead can make themselves spiritually alive - that is the work of the Spirit.

So again, I don't know why Paul doesn't mention him here, but if you read his letters, and the Gospels, there is plenty of teaching about the Spirit and his role.
I don't know why you would ignore the NT and insist that the Gospel is only found in those 2 verses.

 

[Oneofhope]

To those who were critical of my references to the Old Testament, here is an OT passage that points to Christ. What are the terms for receiving Eternal Life? Believe. Water baptism is not mentioned.

Isaiah 28:16 NLT - "Therefore, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "Look! I am placing a foundation stone in Jerusalem, a firm and tested stone. It is a precious cornerstone that is safe to build on. Whoever believes need never be shaken."

It is the Work of Christ to Redeem. We cannot Redeem ourselves through any thought or action.

Jesus:
1) Performs Spiritual Circumcision
2) Grants Repentance (the ability to Repent)
3) Sends the Indwelling and Effectually guiding Holy Spirit
4) Died on the cross to pay the full penalty for all sin.

What human "work" is necessary beyond the Work of Christ? What does water baptism provide that Christ does not?

 

[Guojing]

We are saved if we believe that Christ died for our sins and that he was raised from the dead.
It is not possible to believe that without the Holy Spirit working in our lives.

Alright, at least we came to an agreement in that. That was all I was trying to establish.

 

[Strong in Him]

Alright, at least we came to an agreement in that. That was all I was trying to establish.

I wasn't denying that. I was saying that those 2 verses are not the whole Gospel, because Paul doesn't mention the Holy Spirit, being born again, etc.

 

[Oneofhope]

I wasn't denying that. I was saying that those 2 verses are not the whole Gospel, because Paul doesn't mention the Holy Spirit, being born again, etc.

Do you include Colossians 2:9-15 as part of the Gospel?

 

[d taylor]

People are asking you for scripture that indicated that "water baptism is a public profession that they have believed in Jesus."

-
​

Go read about Philip and the Ethiopian or Cornelius

 

[d taylor]

When you say it's not correct, you think Paul was joking in that passage?

I cannot be saved if I hold on to that gospel he preached to me?

Instead I have to find out what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 and follow that?

Again, let me ask you to try to just read 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, what does the passage literally says? If you are unwilling to do that for Galatians 1:8-9, can you try to do that for once in that new passage?

1 Corinthians 15, why read only the first four verses. Is that because you only want to make 1 Corinthians 15 fit to your theology.

Because if you continue reading you will see what Paul is addressing in 1 Corinthians 15. Which is, there were believers who were sating there was no resurrection.
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Paul was not telling believers how to be saved, they had already believed in Jesus.

 

[Rose_bud]

The gospel is the good news of the unparalleled, comprehensive, all-inclusive reign of King Jesus, first to Jew, then to Gentile. The breaking in of a kingdom that includes everybody that would believe that He (Jesus) is God, that he died and rose again. He was the sacrifice provided not just for sins as we define it, but for everything that hinders shalom (He came to restore his creation) all that has been corrupted because of the rebellion against his rule.

The books of Acts is a continuation of Luke’s story… what starts in Jerusalem transcends the boundaries of Jerusalem as the Holy Spirit moves the news forward to all nations … everyone that was previously denied is allowed to enter…

The eunuch is just one example.

“No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord. (Deut 23:1) ESV

Thus says the Lord: “Keep justice, and do righteousness, for soon my salvation will come, and my righteousness be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil.” Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say, “The Lord will surely separate me from his people”; and let not the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.” For thus says the Lord: “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant, I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off. (Isaiah 56 1-12) ESV

He is baptized because he believes… some manuscripts say verse 37 And Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may. (this is after the request for water baptism). And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

[Strong in Him]

Do you include Colossians 2:9-15 as part of the Gospel?

Verses 9+10 certainly. The eternal Word, who is God, became flesh and lived among us.
Being buried with Christ and raised again in taught in Romans 6.
As a result of being born again, a person becomes a new creation and spiritually alive, so I would include that in the Gospel. Personally I would not refer to it as spiritual circumcision unless I was talking to a Jew. The word, and teaching of, circumcision means nothing to most people - and never was for women.

 

[Oneofhope]

Verses 9+10 certainly. The eternal Word, who is God, became flesh and lived among us.
Being buried with Christ and raised again in taught in Romans 6.
As a result of being born again, a person becomes a new creation and spiritually alive, so I would include that in the Gospel. Personally I would not refer to it as spiritual circumcision unless I was talking to a Jew. The word, and teaching of, circumcision means nothing to most people - and never was for women.

I sat "here" for a long time just shaking my head, followed by writing this.

 

[Strong in Him]

I sat "here" for a long time just shaking my head, followed by writing this.

Oh, ok.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I sat "here" for a long time just shaking my head, followed by writing this.

Based on previous conversations, you seem particularly hung up on your private experience, which you call "spiritual circumcision"; without engaging in a meaningful exegesis of the passage in Colossians.

Contextually, Paul is talking about baptism,

"In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross." - Colossians 2:11-14

In Baptism we died with Christ, were buried with Christ, and rose to new life with Christ.

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus." - Romans 6:3-11

By the grace of God we receive from God, as a pure gift, the benefit of Christ's work. We, by grace, have partaken of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection; united to Him, having the righteousness of Christ as a gift, the forgiveness of our sins, reconciled to God, adopted as children of God.

God does this by His grace. This is the meaning and significance of baptism: We died with Christ, we rose with Christ; and so the curse of the Law--the condemnation of the Law because of our sin--no longer stands against us; rather we stand blameless and holy and righteous before God--in Christ. It is not we who are holy and righteous, but Christ. The righteousness we receive is Christ's righteousness, the holiness we receive is Christ's holiness; therefore "because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption," (1 Corinthians 1:30).

We have received a spiritual circumcision because we have been born anew to new life with God in Christ, by the Spirit; which is ours by God's grace alone, through faith. As pure gift.

We have, therefore, been washed clean by Christ "with the washing of water with the word" (Ephesians 5:26), having "saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)

Scripture tells us how God does this for us, and it can be summed up as Word and Sacrament.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rturner76]

Lol.

If you wish to follow your church, by all means have at it buddy. I like having an answer from heaven on things, not living in my mind. Good day.

It's funny you would say that because the Church I follow is the Church that decided what writings would be included in the New Testament so whether you know it or not, you are actually a disciple of the one true and apostolic Church's teachings if you can correctly interpret scripture as it was approved by the Catholic (universal) Church.

Interpreting our New Testament with no guidance from the Church is why over 100,000 different denominations exist, each with a different interpretation of scripture. So you are free to go solo but I prefer to follow the teachings of the Church that Christ himself founded

 

[rturner76]

I think for his case, when Paul says things that he agrees with, he will follow Paul, and not what Jesus said in his first coming.

But when Paul says things that he disagrees with, he will follow what Jesus said in his first coming, and not Paul.

That makes sense because many people (and I'm not accusing him of this) who believe in Sola Scriptura believe that through prayer, they can interpret the New Testament perfectly. That's why I always point out that by going it alone, we have developed 100,000 different denominations, all having their own interpretation of scripture. It's one of the reasons I joined the first Church established by Christ.

For example, during the Reformation there were distinct differences between Calvin's interpretation of scripture and Arminius' interpretation. Both church leaders (or really founders) read the same scripture coming to completely different conclusions (that being predestination vs. free will). I do respect many Berians' interpretations because from my understanding they study the writings of the early Church Fathers.

 

[Rose_bud]

The various interpretations of Scripture is not only limited to the Reformation... the Pharisees and Saducees were also divided in there understanding.

All the more reason we need to approach our reading and interpretations of Scripture with humility... we see in part until love is perfected.

 

[Dan Perez]

How is this relevant to what I said in the thread with baptism being a work?
You have to connect the dots with Scripture so as to defend your position that baptism is a work or not a work.

#1 I just wrote , why BAPTISM is so mis-understood , from Israel too now .

#2 Many say BAPTISM save , as in Mark 16:16 , but when you see the Greek word BAPTISM // BAPTIZO does it always mean WATER .

#3 A good example is in Acts 1:5 , For John indeed BAPTIZED // BAPTIZO with WATER .

#4 But you will be BAPTIZED with HOLY SPIRIT not many of THESE days after .

#5 Is number 3 , a WORK ?

#6 Or is number 4 a WORK ?

#7 The Greek word WORK // ERGON has many meanings ,

#8 Then their are NOUNS and VERBS to consider of what WORK means ?

#9 In 2 Thess 1:11 you have the Greek words , WORK // ERGON is a NOUN in the ACCUSATIVE CASE , is in the NEUTER , meaning MALE OR FEMALE . '

#10 The Greek WORD // ERGON can mean , an Act , Deed , or Enterprise , is just the beginning .

#11 And here the Greek word WORK // ERGON is connected to FAITH .

#12 FAITH // PISTIS a NOUN , is in the GENTIVE CASE in the SINGULAR .

#13 So is FAITH a WORK ?


dan p

 

[ARBITER01]

It's funny you would say that because the Church I follow is the Church that decided what writings would be included in the New Testament so whether you know it or not, you are actually a disciple of the one true and apostolic Church's teachings if you can correctly interpret scripture as it was approved by the Catholic (universal) Church.

Interpreting our New Testament with no guidance from the Church is why over 100,000 different denominations exist, each with a different interpretation of scripture. So you are free to go solo but I prefer to follow the teachings of the Church that Christ himself founded

Ohhhh,...... aren't we the proud one?!

Just to correct a bit of the misinformation, we have those small churches that Paul wrote to to thank for the majority of the letters of Paul as well as the Gospels in some respects. If they were not holding onto them and copying them for the other churches, we would not have anything. All your church did was collect them and arrange them, that's it.

And as proud of your "church building" that you might be, it has quite the murderous past that all the rest of the denominations don't.

 

[Strong in Him]

That's why I always point out that by going it alone, we have developed 100,000 different denominations, all having their own interpretation of scripture. It's one of the reasons I joined the first Church established by Christ.

It's completely o.t. so I won't be expanding on this, But Jesus said "I will build my church" not "I have established the Catholic church."
THE Church is indeed universal, it is all believers. I am a member of THE Church, though the local congregation that I attend for fellowship, teaching and to worship, happens to be Methodist.

I am very happy to explain further in a different thread, if anyone wants me to.

 

[Guojing]

-
​

Go read about Philip and the Ethiopian or Cornelius

Still waiting for your scripture passage.