Without mentioning Trump or Democracy, why do you support Joe Biden for President.

[Truth7t7]

The point is, he's in much better physical shape than Donald Trump.

Joe Biden does all he can do to barely walk across the grass after getting off the chopper, doesn't know where he's at, shaking hands with ghosts on stage before the world, Biden blunders toooo many to mention

A recent NBC poll had 68% of voting Americans worried that Biden isn't mentally or physically capable of doing four more years as president

NBCNews​

Poll: 68% of voters have worries about Biden’s mental and physical health​

June 27, 2023

 

[iluvatar5150]

Unfortunately, this forum is not generally conducive to deeper more nuanced conversations.

IMO, this is more a people problem than a platform problem - at least for here. IME, forums like this tend to be more conducive to nuanced conversations than most other online platforms - they're not perfect, but they're better than Facebook and waaay beyond something like Twitter or Instagram (where I would argue that the platform is a part of the problem). But you need a population of people who are interested in having those discussions, and who, along with the mods, police themselves. Reddit, for example, is a wildly mixed bag, with some subreddits being very engaging and thoughtful and others being cesspools. The platform is constant; the difference is the people. My main beef with reddit is how the ranking system screws up the chronology of posts. It does bring the better posts to the top (which is good), but makes it hard to have or follow an extended conversation. A board like this has something of the opposite problem - following the chronology is easy, but the good stuff gets lost on longer threads.

 

[The Barbarian]

eh... I think the dynamics are more complicated than that. Sure, it's a fine rebuttal to the equally-simplistic argument of "dem mayors bad", but idk... I'd rather understand things a little more deeply.

It's not the mayors. It's the laws and culture in each state. Mayors really have little control over many things that affect crime rates. As mentioned earlier 8 of the 10 states with highest crime rates are red, and two of the 10 states with lowest crime rates are red (Utah and Wyoming).

List of U.S. states and territories by violent crime rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Actually, it's not even a good rebuttal, because it just isn't true. California, Illinois, and Maryland are blue states. Michigan and Ohio are purple.

California, which has a rather high crime rate, is #17 for crime. Highest blue state. Illinois is #19. Maryland is #24. Michigan is #11. Ohio is #33.

There is a pretty good correlation between the crime rate in a city and the color of the state in which it's located.

As someone mentioned, there is the fact that the southeastern US is mostly red. And correlation doesn't prove causation. But the same laws and culture that keep a large portion of the population poor and uneducated would seem to also account for higher crime rates in those states.

Why do inequality and deprivation produce high crime and low trust? - Scientific Reports

Humans sometimes cooperate to mutual advantage, and sometimes exploit one another. In industrialised societies, the prevalence of exploitation, in the form of crime, is related to the distribution of economic resources: more unequal societies tend to have higher crime, as well as lower social...

www.nature.com

 

[The Barbarian]

There are some people who are incapable of having any argument deeper than "RED STATE BAD! BLUE STATE GOOD!" They'll provide "data" to prove that.

I'd be open to your argument that something besides laws and political culture are behind the fact that red states tend to have higher crime rates than blue states. What do you have?

But as you've astutely pointed out, that data is quite easy to game to make it say whatever you want it to say.

I'd be open to your demonstration that the higher crime rates in red states have nothing to do with them being red states. As I said, it's possible that being red and being more violent and criminal are not causual, with both being caused by some other factor. Show us what you have

Unfortunately, this forum is not generally conducive to deeper more nuanced conversations.

If you see facts as misleading, I think we have our answer as to that. See my post just above for a more nuanced link about the causes of violence and crime.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

You've fallen prey to Barbarian's diversion that this is somehow supposed to be a comparison to Trump. It's not. In fact, you'll note that the first three words of this thread title are Without mentioning Trump... something some people seem wholly incapable of doing when discussing Biden.

Ok, but since I’m a grown adult who’s able to talk about whatever I want whenever I want, I decided to compare the physical health of the two presumptive front runners to the election, which would be Biden and Trump. I guess I could have compared him to Barry Manilow, but since Manilow isn’t running for president, it would have been something of a non sequitur.

He didn't just fall. He fell three times. In a row. It was pretty painful to watch.

I get that people stumble and it's not necessarily indicative of any physical problem, but when one says, "Trump can't even walk down a ramp" but then completely ignores that Biden can't even walk up the stairs, that's remarkably hypocritical.

To say one is unfit because he fell means that you have to examine if that makes the similarly aged person who also fell unfit, which was the over-arching point.

Notice I didn’t mention Trump on a ramp, so I don’t know why you’re mentioning to me it’s hypocritical to ignore Biden and focus on Trump.

You sound like my accident-prone sister. She finds new and creative ways to fall and hurt herself nearly every day.

It’s a gift I have cultivated over years.

 

[probinson]

Ok, but since I’m a grown adult who’s able to talk about whatever I want whenever I want, I decided to compare the physical health of the two presumptive front runners to the election, which would be Biden and Trump.

Which I suppose is your prerogative, but the fact remains that the purpose of this thread was to talk about why you support Biden without mentioning Trump.

To say one is unfit because he fell means that you have to examine if that makes the similarly aged person who also fell unfit, which was the over-arching point.

FTR, I think both Trump and Biden are awful, horrible candidates. I find it appalling that these are currently the two front-runners.

Notice I didn’t mention Trump on a ramp, so I don’t know why you’re mentioning to me it’s hypocritical to ignore Biden and focus on Trump.

You didn't, but others in this thread did. I apologize if you thought I was speaking directly about you. I was simply saying that those in this thread that mock Trump's inability to successfully traverse a ramp while simultaneously ignoring the fact that Biden can't even walk up the stairs are being hypocritical.

Here's Biden falling for no apparent reason. The guy is just not steady on his feet.

 

[probinson]

IMO, this is more a people problem than a platform problem - at least for here.

Agreed. There are people here that I can have a lively, nuanced conversation with (even if I disagree) and there are those who never discuss anything in earnest. I absolutely agree that is a people problem and not a problem with the platform.

IME, forums like this tend to be more conducive to nuanced conversations than most other online platforms - they're not perfect, but they're better than Facebook and waaay beyond something like Twitter or Instagram (where I would argue that the platform is a part of the problem).

True. I've had some very engaging conversations on here with various people.

But you need a population of people who are interested in having those discussions, and who, along with the mods, police themselves.

Agreed.

 

[probinson]

If you see facts as misleading,

Of course I don't see facts as misleading. But just as the old saying goes, numbers don't lie, liars use numbers. Surely you know that.

You're trying to show causality where there is simply apparent correlation. Of course, anyone discussing this topic in earnest understands that there are countless confounders that may account for differences, but that would run counter to your simplistic narrative that BLUE GOOD! RED BAD!

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Which I suppose is your prerogative, but the fact remains that the purpose of this thread was to talk about why you support Biden without mentioning Trump.

Which I did, two times. And in that comment, I wasn’t saying I support him, I was talking about comparative physical health among the two front runners and how falling down going up carpeted stairs on a windy day when others fell too doesn’t mean unfitness, then I illustrated that I fall down too. That’s it.

FTR, I think both Trump and Biden are awful, horrible candidates. I find it appalling that these are currently the two front-runners.

I would rather different candidates too, but this is what we have to work with so here we are.

You didn't, but others in this thread did. I apologize if you thought I was speaking directly about you. I was simply saying that those in this thread that mock Trump's inability to successfully traverse a ramp while simultaneously ignoring the fact that Biden can't even walk up the stairs are being hypocritical.

I’m not responsible for what others say. I’m only responsible for what I say. If I’m going to mock Trump, it’s going to be for something other than not being able to navigate a ramp. If we are talking the West Point ramp thing, it was a steep ramp with no handrail and I suspect his dress shoes had no tread. I don’t think it’s deeper than that. I absolutely would have eaten dirt on that ramp.

Here's Biden falling for no apparent reason. The guy is just not steady on his feet.

Then I’m in good company.

 

[probinson]

Which I did, two times. And in that comment, I wasn’t saying I support him, I was talking about comparative physical health among the two front runners and how falling down going up carpeted stairs on a windy day when others fell too doesn’t mean unfitness, then I illustrated that I fall down too. That’s it.

Yes, if that were the only example. But it's not. Biden can't dismount a bike. Biden can't walk up stairs. Biden falls for no apparent reason. Biden wanders aimlessly around the stage looking completely lost. Biden awkwardly wanders off in the midst of the presentation of a medal. Falling up the stairs was not an isolated incident.

I would rather different candidates too, but this is what we have to work with so here we are.

Maybe. I am holding out hope that these won't be the candidates. What an indictment of the US population that we believe these are the best candidates.

I’m not responsible for what others say. I’m only responsible for what I say.

Agreed, and that's why I apologized for making it seem like I was talking about you in the last post. I was saying that those who mock Trump's instability while excusing Biden's are hypocritical. I can see from your posts that's not you.

 

[The Barbarian]

Of course I don't see facts as misleading. But just as the old saying goes, numbers don't lie, liars use numbers. Surely you know that.

If you think any of the data in violent crime in the states is faked, I'm sure we'd be happy to see your evidence. What do you have?

Meantime, have you thought of an adequate excuse for the fact that violent crime tends to be higher in red states than in blue states? Let us know when you think of one.

You're trying to show causality where there is simply apparent correlation.

I just pointed out to you that correlation isn't necessarily causation. It's possible that violent crime is more common in red states for reasons unrelated to the state being red. But so far, we haven't seen any reason to believe that. One important fact. When Hillary Clinton lost to Trump, she conceded, and told her followers to accept it. And they made no attempt to overthrow the government. When Trump lost to Biden, he refused to concede, and told his followers to go to the Capitol and "fight like hell" to stop the election certification. And many of his followers obeyed him. Many of those criminals admitted in court that they did it, because Trump told them to. It's not limited to red states; it's just that people like that are more common in red states.

Of course, anyone discussing this topic in earnest understands that there are countless confounders that may account for differences,

I already pointed this out to you. Several times. Part of your difficulties here, is you don't pay much attention to what others say. If you were paying attention, you would have noticed that Ioffered a scientific paper that suggested poverty and low educational levels as causes of violent crime. Which would fit nicely with the violent crime rate in most states. I would bet that red states that have levels of education and affluence close to that of most blue states, likely have lower violent crime rates than other red states. Want me to check?

 

[FenderTL5]

..the fact remains that the purpose of this thread was to talk about why you support Biden without mentioning Trump.

Interesting that you point that out of others. I don't see that you've adhered to the thread topic either. The purpose is support of Biden. Have you posted anything supportive of Biden? I'm only aware of opposition, which is off topic just as the point underlined in your post quoted above.

 

[probinson]

If you think any of the data in violent crime in the states is faked,

That's not what I said.

I'm sure we'd be happy to see your evidence.

Who is "we"? Do you seek solace in consensus? Do your arguments not stand on their own merits? Why do you need to pretend you speak for the collective whole?

Meantime, have you thought of an adequate excuse for the fact that violent crime tends to be higher in red states than in blue states?

According to your source, Washington DC leads the nation in violent crime with a 2020 rate of 999.8 per 100,000. No one would argue that Washington DC is "red". The fact that the worst violent crime rate in the nation (by far) is in a decidedly blue area calls into question your hypothesis that violent crime rates are higher because they are "red".

Let us know when you think of one.

"Us."

I just pointed out to you that correlation isn't necessarily causation.

You say that. You don't actually mean it. To wit:

It's possible that violent crime is more common in red states for reasons unrelated to the state being red. But so far, we haven't seen any reason to believe that.

Sure we have. Washington DC is very blue and yet has the highest crime rate in the nation. Clearly there are other factors at work. The only reason you say there is no reason to believe otherwise is because you really, really want to believe it. Confirmation bias is a heckuva thing. Unfortunately for you, Washington DC is very blue and very violent.

One important fact. When Hillary Clinton lost to Trump, she conceded, and told her followers to accept it.

Is gaslighting the only thing you know how to do? Here's a compilation of Hillary and the Democrats talking incessantly about the "stolen" election when Hillary lost, and the violent riots that resulted.

 

[probinson]

Interesting that you point that out of others. I don't see that you've adhered to the thread topic either. The purpose is support of Biden. Have you posted anything supportive of Biden? I'm only aware of opposition, which is off topic just as the point underlined in your post quoted above.

I don't support Biden. Or Trump. I think they are both horrible candidates. I started posting in this thread by simply pointing out some apparent double standards being applied to Biden and Trump, and then as is often the case, the thread went off the rails whining about how bad Trump and Republicans are.

You were the exception. You managed to actually say why you support Biden. I disagreed with nearly everything you said, but at least you were able to articulate why you support him. As this thread handily illustrates, most people support Biden simply because he's not Trump.

 

[The Barbarian]

I took the top 5 most violent red states and the 5 least violent red states and compared crime rate to mean household income calculate how well they are correlated. There is a weak positive correlation of a little more than 0.080. I guess I'll have to do all of them to get a better number. But this suggests that the marked difference in violent crime between red states and blue states is not due primarily to poverty.

I'm guessing that median income would be a better measure than mean income. I'll see if I can get that for all the states.

 

[FenderTL5]

I don't support Biden. Or Trump. I think they are both horrible candidates. I started posting in this thread by simply pointing out some apparent double standards being applied to Biden and Trump, and then as is often the case, the thread went off the rails whining about how bad Trump and Republicans are.

which makes your posts off topic. You broke the protocol in the first sentence, not supportive of Biden and by mentioning the unmentionable.

You were the exception. You managed to actually say why you support Biden.

At least you noticed.

I disagreed with nearly everything you said, but at least you were able to articulate why you support him. As this thread handily illustrates, most people support Biden simply because he's not Trump.

If were to go off-topic as you have (again), I could enumerate many more reasons.. but again, I digress...

 

[FenderTL5]

According to your source, Washington DC leads the nation in violent crime with a 2020 rate of 999.8 per 100,000. No one would argue that Washington DC is "red"..

..Washington DC is very blue

There are only a few that would argue that DC is a state.

 

[probinson]

which makes your posts off topic. You broke the protocol in the first sentence, not supportive of Biden and by mentioning the unmentionable.

I was responding to people who had already mentioned Trump.

And now you're posting off topic as well. Which is probably acceptable, since you're just trying to put me in my place.

My point wasn't to call people out for going off-topic. My point was that most people seem wholly incapable of stating why they support Biden without mentioning Trump. Feeble Biden being in subjectively "better shape" than feeble Donald Trump is hardly a compelling argument.

If were to go off-topic...

You just did.

 

[probinson]

There are only a few that would argue that DC is a state.

Washington DC is not a state, but it has a very blue government and leads the nation in violent crime per capita. The stated hypothesis is that blue government equals less violent crime. DC illustrates that hypothesis is demonstrably false.

 

[probinson]

If were to go off-topic as you have (again), I could enumerate many more reasons.. but again, I digress...

Despite the fact that I can almost guarantee I will disagree with many of your reasons, I still like to hear them. Obviously we have different perspectives, so hearing why you support Biden (beyond "at least he's not Trump!") is very intriguing for me.