Why is earth's AGE important to you?

[oikonomia]

If we are bodily resurrected and no sin exists, why then is there a Tree of Life and its leaves are for the healing of the nations yet only Christians that love and do his commandments may have right to the Tree of Life and may enter the city? But the sinners are without (outside)? Revelation 22:14-15 is only speaking about the living why would dead need to eat?

I believe the eating of the tree of life means the taking in of the life of God by the sons of God.
I believe the healing of the leaves of the tree of life is the healing, shepherding, and guiding of the surrounding
innocent nations who are not sons of God.

I do not know as much about this as I would like. But I believe there in the millennium (to come) and seemingly afterwards
spared nations are brought back to the state Adam was before he sinned.

Adam was neutral and innocent. He was created "very good" but had yet brought into his being the divine life of God.
Innocence and being good do not need redemption from sin or deliverance from its power.
But tiredness may require a "healing". And apparently regenerated and innocent nations will walk in the light
of the central New Jerusalem of the sons of God.

This is not to me a major tenet of the Gospel. And I believe that I see something "in part" and prophesy "in part."

These passages, I have learned to take as nations in the new heaven and new earth having in their midst the benefit
of a city of sons of God. But the surrounding nations enjoying the healing of thier guidance of Christ and God's sons (the healing of the leaves of the tree of life) benefit.

And I heard a loud voice out of the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they will be His peoples, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. (Rev. 21:3)

Revelation 22:2 - And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

At this present moment and for some time, there are things which I do not know about this situation.
But believe there are the sons of God who compose the New Jerusalem and of the fruit of God's life.
And there will be surroundng nations who are as Adam and Eve were before they sinned - innocent, very good, yet not regenerated.

 

[oikonomia]

Well it was only recently that I heard of this view espoused by Doug Wilson that the new heavens and earth is now, when the church age was inaugurated.

I think these kinds of artitudes may develop with people who get bored with degraded condition of Christianity.
Some throw their interest then into Israel.
Others see everyting of prophecy as anti-climax.

Extremes exist with mythicists like Richard Carrier. The entire New Testament is an unimpressive "ho-hum" matter to him because
he has deliberately innundated his mind with all manner of religious literature to fortify his belief in the un-uniqueness of Jesus Christ.
I call him "Dr. Anybody BUT Jesus."

His reasoning was that 2 Peter 3:10-13 uses the language in Isaiah 65:17; 66:22 and he compared it to the book of Jude. But he goes on to say there's a progression in the culmination of glory. What happens in the resurrection is the culmination of the process of the new heavens and earth, not the inauguration of it. In the resurrection the created order as we know it will be transformed.

The latter part of this explanation I have respect for. I tried above to explain something of God's sons take the lead to usher in
a new environment. It is not the other way around.

That Peter would use the only sriptural language they had to accompany what he knew from Jesus' teaching is not suprising.
Why some want to relagate all prophesy for the church to have already been done, I think is symptomatic with boredom with the
church - weariness of her degradation with no hope.

By God's mercy some of us have escaped this kind of depression. We see the matter of overcomers, remnant, and something akin
to Gideon's small army of 300 winning the battle on behalf of the entire substandard nation.

I wish more Christians would consider more carefully the testimony of Judges chapter 7.

 

[didactics]

So you are Reformed and an Amillenialist?

Remember the inauguration of the New Heaven and New Earth which marks "last days" (A.D. 30 to A.D. 70, past tense), "end of the age" (A.D. 30 to A.D.70, past tense) and is "the age to come" (A.D. 70 to A.D. 2023+) occurs at the destruction of Jerusalem and the Old Heaven and Old Earth which is "this age" (A.D. 30 to A.D. 70, past tense) when all things shall be finished/fulfilled before "this generation" (A.D. 30 to A.D. 70, past tense) passes away.

Remember the judgment of Israel and Jerusalem can not be divorced from the Resurrection. And Resurrection can not be divorced from the judgment of Israel and Jerusalem. Because the judgment of Israel and Jerusalem marks the time when all things shall be finished including the Resurrection. Daniel 12:2,6-7

Recently, I have been persuaded by the postmill view but I haven't read books on this subject (would like to consider it, not just postmill but an overview of each position in more detail). The most I've done is read articles, some commentary, and listen to documentaries. I grew up in a Christian home but it was more cultural than anything. Only when I was an adult I started to look more into the teaching about reformed theology. It was interesting because one day I decided to ask my parents what they thought about eschatology, although my stepdad is senile now so I don't think he could tell me. But my mom was confused because she would only tell me she believed in a secret rapture. But I asked her, don't you know that view presupposes a millennium a thousand years of Christ literally on the earth ruling before the time of the end. And she was puzzled and I was puzzled. At that point I realized she bought into the belief of premill eschatology without really knowing fully what they teach. Many people in the west it seems accepts a view of the end times about a secret rapture (pre-trib) like it's a basic tenet of the faith.

 

[Ephesians321]

Recently, I have been persuaded by the postmill view but I haven't read books on this subject (would like to consider it, not just postmill but an overview of each position in more detail). The most I've done is read articles, some commentary, and listen to documentaries. I grew up in a Christian home but it was more cultural than anything. Only when I was an adult I started to look more into the teaching about reformed theology. It was interesting because one day I decided to ask my parents what they thought about eschatology, although my stepdad is senile now so I don't think he could tell me. But my mom was confused because she would only tell me she believed in a secret rapture. But I asked her, don't you know that view presupposes a millennium a thousand years of Christ literally on the earth ruling before the time of the end. And she was puzzled and I was puzzled. At that point I realized she bought into the belief of premill eschatology without really knowing fully what they teach. Many people in the west it seems accepts a view of the end times about a secret rapture (pre-trib) like it's a basic tenet of the faith.

I went from pre-trib pre-mill in my greenest first conversion years who really didn't know heads from tails about Biblical eschatology before converting to partial preterism before taking the full plunge into full preterism and never looked back. A liberating experience that dispelled the darkness of confusion found in futurism. Whereby the Kingdom of Heaven is two fold both here on earth in the church and in heaven with Christ providentially reigning gloriously on the Throne of David possessing the Glory he shared with the Father before this earth was even formed. That Christ is never coming as a tiny 5 foot something Jewish figure to appear in the skies above Jerusalem whom the whole earth is miraculously going to see even though all of the State of Israel would not be able to see him visibly. And he is never going to establish a kingdom here on earth because his kingdom is right here, right now in the hearts of believers within the living Temple called the Church.

 

[oikonomia]

I went from pre-trib pre-mill in my greenest first conversion years who really didn't know heads from tails about Biblical eschatology before converting to partial preterism before taking the full plunge into full preterism and never looked back. A liberating experience that dispelled the darkness of confusion found in futurism. Whereby the Kingdom of Heaven is two fold both here on earth in the church and in heaven with Christ providentially reigning gloriously on the Throne of David possessing the Glory he shared with the Father before this earth was even formed. That Christ is never coming as a tiny 5 foot something Jewish figure to appear in the skies above Jerusalem whom the whole earth is miraculously going to see even though all of the State of Israel would not be able to see him visibly. And he is never going to establish a kingdom here on earth because his kingdom is right here, right now in the hearts of believers within the living Temple called the Church.

Praise the Lord ! I can't believe it. A precious brother who is a full Preterist.
This is probably first for me to meet someone like you giving a little personal testimony.

Thanks for that little testimony.
Do you really think the kingdom today in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit HAS to be verses Christ kingdom to come
on the earth?

Why is it a necessarily opposing to each other matter ?

 

[didactics]

In listening to a sermon on Matt. 24 a preacher clarifies one thing I find helpful: The New Testament is the whole of the history of this overlap of new covenant and old covenant existing simultaneously and not getting along at all.

I find this helpful because I’ve assumed that new and old covenant couldn’t exist at the same time for a time but no that was the case. Some say the new covenant was made at the Last Supper or at his crucifixion when he declared it is finished and the veil of the temple was torn at that moment.

The work of Christ on the cross initiated a number of events that had to take place for the Old Covenant to be completed. The entire law needed to be fulfilled to be fully replaced by the New Covenant. Mt. 5:18. Otherwise, the Law of Moses is still in effect!

Now just to clarify, you mean the entire law needed to be fulfilled in Christ in order for the [what?] to be fully replaced by the new covenant. The way I see it is the new covenant was in full effect in the early 1st century. But it didn't mean the old covenant would go down easy, hence the conflict that ensued. And a formal and material end of the old covenant is a big deal that happened in 70 AD. But just to be clear you're not saying the entire law that was fulfilled in Christ needed to be replaced by the new covenant are you? Because the entire law is God's word. The old covenant is done, but God's word is completed in the whole of the Old and New Testament. The entire revelation of God is his word and we are given the final words from the apostle John which just so happened to be written shortly before the fall of Jerusalem or so I believe.

 

[Ephesians321]

Praise the Lord ! I can't believe it. A precious brother who is a full Preterist.
This is probably first for me to meet someone like you giving a little personal testimony.

Thanks for that little testimony.
Do you really think the kingdom today in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit HAS to be verses Christ kingdom to come
on the earth?

Why is it a necessarily opposing to each other matter ?

Doctrinely it has quite a significance impact that radically changes world views and the understanding of the "end times". Look at what futurism is doing to Christianity in regards to the State of Israel, a people without a single covenant, a Messiah, and following a dead religion that places the authority of man's traditions (Talmud aka Oral Torah) above the singular Word of God (Bible) and all of the Christian date-setter madness centered around it. Agnostics, atheists, and secular Jews make-up the predominate demograph in the State of Israel today it is obviously not God's Biblical Israel. The State of Israel is their last remaining hope of a physical, bodily return of Christ. Or what about futurist contention with science because they absolutely must have a young earth and most certainly physical death after the fall of man otherwise it completely falsifies their bodily Resurrection and Rapture doctrines.

But yes, I wish the church wasn't so divided by doctrines. Church creeds and traditions are as much to blame too.

 

[Ephesians321]

In listening to a sermon on Matt. 24 a preacher clarifies one thing I find helpful: The New Testament is the whole of the history of this overlap of new covenant and old covenant existing simultaneously and not getting along at all.

I find this helpful because I’ve assumed that new and old covenant couldn’t exist at the same time for a time but no that was the case. Some say the new covenant was made at the Last Supper or at his crucifixion when he declared it is finished and the veil of the temple was torn at that moment.



Now just to clarify, you mean the entire law needed to be fulfilled in Christ in order for the [what?] to be fully replaced by the new covenant. The way I see it is the new covenant was in full effect in the early 1st century. But it didn't mean the old covenant would go down easy, hence the conflict that ensued. And a formal and material end of the old covenant is a big deal that happened in 70 AD. But just to be clear you're not saying the entire law that was fulfilled in Christ needed to be replaced by the new covenant are you? Because the entire law is God's word. The old covenant is done, but God's word is completed in the whole of the Old and New Testament. The entire revelation of God is his word and we are given the final words from the apostle John which just so happened to be written shortly before the fall of Jerusalem or so I believe.

Because the whole Old Testament is the Law in its entirety, there still remained many unfulfilled prophecies regarding physical Israel after the flesh. The cross and death of Christ is just one of many. I repeat one of many. If the Law passed away at the cross than so did all those yet unfulfilled prophecies to physical Israel too. The Law is the whole Tanakh not restricted to just the Torah.

 

[Ephesians321]

Let me present it another way.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets (the Tanakh). I did not come to destroy but to fulfill (the Tanakh). For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth (Old Covenant Israel and Temple cultus) pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law (the Tanakh) till all is fulfilled (the Tanakh).
Matthew 5:17-18

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt (Resurrection). One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?” The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people (Old Covenant Israel and Temple cultus) has been finally broken, all these things (the Tanakh) will be completed.”
Daniel12:2,6-7

Hebrews 9:8; Revelation 15:8; Hebrews 9:11-25, 11:10,16,35,12:28, 1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:50; Philippians 3:20

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written (the Tanakh) may be fulfilled. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled (the Tanakh). Heaven and earth (Old Covenant Israel and Temple cultus) shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luke 21:22,32-33

 

[didactics]

Because the whole Old Testament is the Law in its entirety, there still remained many unfulfilled prophecies regarding physical Israel after the flesh. The cross and death of Christ is just one of many. I repeat one of many. If the Law passed away at the cross than so did all those yet unfulfilled prophecies to physical Israel too. The Law is the whole Tanakh not restricted to just the Torah.

But I don't think that's right. It's not that the heart of the law was passing away, but it was the old covenant way of worship, or the limits of the place of worship. We find greater fulfillment in Christ in preserving the heart of the law. The word of the Lord is both law and gospel. I don't think it means that the Tanakh words will pass away, for the writings themselves is God's word. No, I think it's saying heaven and earth may be thrown into a state of chaos than any of his word be in vain. Because if the Law refers to the old testament, that's part of his word; it doesn't mean that will pass away. It might sound like that's what it's saying when it says "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." but I think it's showing the impossibility of its passing. But granted, it sounds like it's speaking of the system of the law, the old covenant or it does sound like it's speaking of the Tanakh doesn't it? Maybe it means the spirit of the law is preserved through his people. But added to that I would say the resurrection of the body as a future event doesn't somehow negate that all has been fulfilled. It only needed to take the resurrection of the one to guarantee the rest. But the New testament does speak about the old covenant becoming obsolete and passing away, meaning it already was undergoing the process beginning with the cross and we find fulfillment of that in the destruction of the temple. Also in Matthew Henry's commentary it reads, When God works deliverance for his people from persecution it is a kind of resurrection (end quote). But notice, this kind of resurrection which speaks of outward prosperity and deliverance for his people is not about going to heaven when you die. For the resurrection in part has been fulfilled by the preservation of the church the climax being the resurrection.

 

[Ephesians321]

But I don't think that's right. It's not that the heart of the law was passing away, but it was the old covenant way of worship, or the limits of the place of worship. We find greater fulfillment in Christ in preserving the heart of the law. The word of the Lord is both law and gospel. I don't think it means that the Tanakh words will pass away, for the writings themselves is God's word. No, I think it's saying heaven and earth may be thrown into a state of chaos than any of his word be in vain. Because if the Law refers to the old testament, that's part of his word; it doesn't mean that will pass away. It might sound like that's what it's saying when it says "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." but I think it's showing the impossibility of its passing. But granted, it sounds like it's speaking of the system of the law, the old covenant or it does sound like it's speaking of the Tanakh doesn't it? Maybe it means the spirit of the law is preserved through his people. But added to that I would say the resurrection of the body as a future event doesn't somehow negate that all has been fulfilled. It only needed to take the resurrection of the one to guarantee the rest. But the New testament does speak about the old covenant becoming obsolete and passing away, meaning it already was undergoing the process beginning with the cross and we find fulfillment of that in the destruction of the temple. Also in Matthew Henry's commentary it reads, When God works deliverance for his people from persecution it is a kind of resurrection (end quote). But notice, this kind of resurrection which speaks of outward prosperity and deliverance for his people is not about going to heaven when you die. For the resurrection in part has been fulfilled by the preservation of the church the climax being the resurrection.

That is not what I said but every promise, hope, and prophecy made to physical Israel after the flesh found in the Tanakh will be fulfilled once the Old Covenant Israel and Temple Cultus passes away. God's covenant is with the Church now and forevermore. But all promises and prophecies to Old Covenant Israel have been fulfilled.

 

[Ephesians321]

All the requirements of the Tanakh were fulfilled in Christ by A.D. 30-33 and all promises and prophecies in the Tanakh were fulfilled in Christ by A.D. 70.

 

[oikonomia]

Doctrinely it has quite a significance impact that radically changes world views and the understanding of the "end times".

For me, Second Thessalonians is a model of how Paul adjusted some Christians who needed it. Their excitement about
end times caused some to become loose and irresponsible. In his second letter I see Paul shepherding these ones back into
a healthier attitude.

An early experience I had as a very young zealous gospel preacher was that I was not a good emplyee. The Holy Spirit convicted me when I heard a message on effective gospel preaching. The speaker had a number of points I don't remember except his first point. That was if
a person would be a good gospel spreader he/she must be a hard worker - a reliable employee. I felt that word was tailor made from the Holy Spirit for me.

Look at what futurism is doing to Christianity in regards to the State of Israel, a people without a single covenant, a Messiah, and following a dead religion that places the authority of man's traditions (Talmud aka Oral Torah) above the singular Word of God (Bible) and all of the Christian date-setter madness centered around it.

I never got into "date setting". Once a Christian told me, "You want to know the date of the second coming of Jesus? Get your pencil and paper out now and I'll tell you. Are you ready? In an hour you think not the Son of Man comes." Of course he was referring to -
For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming. (Matt. 24:44)

For me just getting into the pure word of the New Testament shepherds my soul from the error of date setting.

Agnostics, atheists, and secular Jews make-up the predominate demograph in the State of Israel today it is obviously not God's Biblical Israel. The State of Israel is their last remaining hope of a physical, bodily return of Christ.

I am always touched by the Gospel of Luke showing a few older Jews were praying for the Messiah to come.
Luke shows us a couple of sage Jews who earnestly were petitioning God. And the very birth of Jesus seems to have been
God responding to these faithful ones patient life-long intercession.

I asked a post, but do not remember getting an answer. I asked "The return of the captive Israelites from Babylon to the good land, was it
due to Jeremiah's prophecy or to Daniel's prayers?" The answer I believe is mysteriously BOTH.

It is the same, I believe, with the Lord's second coming. There is prophecy and there is cooperation of the petitioning believers.
To think it is entirely due to prophesy is what I might call your "futurism" or prognostication. Accompanying God's prophetic promises there also must be those on earth living unto God and holding Him to His word - Daniels with his companions.

Daniel prayed after he studied the prophecy of Jeremiah about a seventy year capitivity. He prayed even at the risk of being thrown
to the lions. He prayed for God to DO what Jeremiah had predicted by the Spirit of God. Daniel didn't just check the calender.
Nor did he excuse himself from petitioning God for the legitimate threat of dying.

Most Sunday school kids hear about Daniel in the lion's den. Not many are taught IMO the lesson there. He did not JUST believe
the prophecies of God. He lived unto God, had ground with Him, and petitioned God to fulfill His word. He did this at the cost of his life.

I also noticed that Daniel was in a position to have all the wise men of Babylon killed if he wanted to. He was not this kind of
activist THOUGH he had the position to eliminate these "rivals." He professionally administered for the government. But he didn't attempt to wipe out the magicians, soothsayers, astrologers and Chaldean wise men. Many a Christians awaiting prophetic fulfillment could
learn from Daniel.

The prophetic return to Jerusalem and the Good Land happened because of both Jeremiah's prophecy AND Daniel's faithful prayers for it
and godly testifying living.

Or what about futurist contention with science because they absolutely must have a young earth and most certainly physical death after the fall of man otherwise it completely falsifies their bodily Resurrection and Rapture doctrines.
But yes, I wish the church wasn't so divided by doctrines. Church creeds and traditions are as much to blame too.

The greatest of all prophecies is "I will build My church."

And for this there has to be a remnant on earth Christ can point to in the face of the accuser and say "You see Satan? It is possible
for my people to overcome division and be builded up in oneness as My Body the church."

I do not expect a world-wide revival. Nor do I expect CNN or PBS or news journalists to inform us when this oneness of
Christians is a reality. I know that like a Gideon's little army of 300 God will have a testimony of His builded church.
For "I will build My church" is the most important prophesy and promise of the Son of God. There will be a break through even if
a minority for the sake of the majority.

It will require some of us die to self with His cross and become the Philadelphia of brotherly love. Maybe we will not have
much power. Maybe such ones will have in the world's eyes "a little power." But we will have faithfulness.

Consider: And to the messenger of the church in Philadelphia write: These things says the Holy One, the true One, the One who has the key of David, the One who opens and no one will shut, and shuts and no one opens:

I know your works; behold, I have put before you an opened door which no one can shut, because you have a little power and have kept My word and have not denied My name. (Rev. 3:7,8)

Anyway a Christian once said wisely imo that when the Lord Jesus returns physically, most people on earth will think it is too soon rather than too late.

 

[didactics]

That is not what I said but every promise, hope, and prophecy made to physical Israel after the flesh found in the Tanakh will be fulfilled once the Old Covenant Israel and Temple Cultus passes away. God's covenant is with the Church now and forevermore. But all promises and prophecies to Old Covenant Israel have been fulfilled.

Sure I would agree mostly or almost all anyway that the promises have been fulfilled. All of the bulk of prophecy has been fulfilled in order for the church to completely replace Israel (or what many dispensationalists call replacement theology). In thinking about Matthew 5:18, maybe I don't understand the passage as well as I thought. I mean is it literally saying that one jot or one tittle will pass from the law once all is fulfilled? I don't so. In the gospel of mark it drops the phrase "till all be fulfilled."

Mark 13:30-31
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Notice the difference in the wording. It's made more clear in how it's worded that he simply refers to his word as inerrant.

Matt. 24:34-35
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Matt. 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I think it's simply saying that the purpose of scripture is to be fulfilled and it is more reliable than the earth or the heavens. The "law and the prophets" is another way of referring to all the Old Testament and the Old Testament is not the same thing as the old covenant.

Lastly, is he really saying every last prophecy needs to be fulfilled in 70 AD in order for the old world to pass away? Or is it that every relevant prophecy which is the bulk of prophecy needs to be fulfilled? The Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the body yet Jesus or the apostles never bothered to correct them on it.

 

[Ephesians321]

Sure I would agree mostly or almost all anyway that the promises have been fulfilled. All of the bulk of prophecy has been fulfilled in order for the church to completely replace Israel (or what many dispensationalists call replacement theology). In thinking about Matthew 5:18, maybe I don't understand the passage as well as I thought. I mean is it literally saying that one jot or one tittle will pass from the law once all is fulfilled? I don't so. In the gospel of mark it drops the phrase "till all be fulfilled."

Mark 13:30-31
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Notice the difference in the wording. It's made more clear in how it's worded that he simply refers to his word as inerrant.

Matt. 24:34-35
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Matt. 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I think it's simply saying that the purpose of scripture is to be fulfilled and it is more reliable than the earth or the heavens. The "law and the prophets" is another way of referring to all the Old Testament and the Old Testament is not the same thing as the old covenant.

Lastly, is he really saying every last prophecy needs to be fulfilled in 70 AD in order for the old world to pass away? Or is it that every relevant prophecy which is the bulk of prophecy needs to be fulfilled? The Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the body yet Jesus or the apostles never bothered to correct them on it.

Jesus is not speaking of the literal cosmos he is speaking of the Mosaic age and its Temple. Temples often contained images and symbols representing both the heaven and the earth including the Tabernacle, Solomon's Temple, and Herod's Temple. Temples were a microcosm of creation itself and in fact the Holiest of Holies was a typology / shadow of Kingdom of Heaven itself.

HEAVEN AND EARTH HAVE ALREADY PASSED AWAY

The Bible often speaks of the heavens and earth in its literal sense as in Genesis 1:1, but it also uses these terms metaphorically, figuratively. It is this second use that we will examine in this paper.

1. Two main ages Generally speaking, first century Jews had the conception of two ages—the Mosaic Age and the Messianic Age— also called the Old Covenant and New Covenant. (Jer. 31:31f). Because the New Testament writers lived before the definitive end of the Mosaic Covenant in AD 70, they describe the two ages as “this age” (Mosaic) and “the age to come” (Messianic, Christian, Kingdom of God). The latter is the New Heaven and New Earth.

2. In Hebrew thought, “Heavens and Earth” were figurative for the political/social/religious order of a people.
A. This prophecy concerning the coming destruction of Babylon by the Medes, was stated in terms of destroying their heaven and earth. “Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place in the wrath of Yahweh of Armies, and in the day of his fierce anger.”Is. 13:13
B. In this scripture, God is outraged with Israel’s rebellion and waywardness. “Hear, heavens, and listen, earth; for Yahweh has spoken: ‘I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.’” Is. 1:2
C. Prophecy: Yahweh’s special “heavens and earth” will rejoice at the destruction of Babylon. “Then the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, shall sing for joy over Babylon; for the destroyers shall come to her from the north, says Yahweh.” Jer. 51:48

3. God created a covenantal “heavens and earth” when he chose Israel to be His people. Here Isaiah reminds the Jews of the special protective relationship they enjoy with Yahweh. “I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, 'You are my people.'" Is 51:16

4. Jesus prophesied that the old “heaven and earth” would pass when every bit of the law and prophets was accomplished. This was the passing of the Old Covenant which signaled the beginning of the New. "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.” Mt. 5: 17.

5. Jesus prophesied that His generation would see the end of the old "heaven and earth”. “Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away, until all these things are accomplished. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” Mt. 24:34-35.

6. Yahweh promised a “new heavens and earth” after the Mosaic “heavens and earth" passed. "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.” Is 65: 17

7. In his vision, John saw the new “heaven and earth” replace the old Mosaic “heaven and earth”. “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away…” Rev. 21:1

8. Peter welcomed the destruction of the Old Covenant and installation of the New Covenant. “But the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men…But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.” 2 Peter 3:7, 13

9. What does history report regarding the old “heavens and earth”? The temple was destroyed by fire in 70 AD. The records of priestly succession were also destroyed annulling any reconstitution of the Aaronic Priesthood. Without a temple, priesthood, altar, records, etc. there were no traces of the first Mosaic heaven and earth left by the winter of AD 70.

 

[Ephesians321]

Here is the Mosaic Heaven and Earth that burned up and melted with a fervent heat in A.D. 70.

For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Hebrews 8:4-6

Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Hebrews 9:23-24

Here is heathen example of "Heaven and Earth". Egyptian in fact.

 

[Ephesians321]

2 Peter 3:5-12

“For they willfully forget that there were heavens from of old, and an earth formed out of water and amid water by the word of God, by which means the world [social order] that existed then, being overflowed with water, perished.” Vv. 5-6
The mockers willfully forgot their history regarding Noah’s day when the unrighteous were swept from the land. It is important to note the physical earth was not destroyed with the flood, but rather, the world of ungodly men. The same would be true of the coming national judgment of Israel and the destruction of the Old Covenant in AD 70.

But the heavens that exist now and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” V. 7
“Heaven and earth” was a figure of speech used for the Mosaic Covenant (“I…have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, ‘You are my people.’” Is 51:16) But Jesus taught the covenant relationship was broken and would be abolished with the destruction of Jerusalem. (The King “sent his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.” Mt. 22:7) “Fire” denotes God’s wrath, is purifying, and was the chief weapon of war in ancient times. Jesus said he came to throw fire on earth in reference to the coming national judgment.

“But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but he is patient with us, not wishing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Vv. 8-9
A 40 year period (a generation) was given for Israel to repent and come to faith in their Messiah. At Peter’s writing, approximately 35 years had passed and detractors were ridiculing the veracity of the prophecy.

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat; and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” V. 10
Here we have typical Hebraic eschatological pictorial language in reference to the uprooting of the Old Covenant social order. The “world” of covenant Israel would be destroyed. The Greek word “elements” [#4747 stoixeíon] referred to the elements of religious training or ceremonial precepts. (See: He 5:12, Gal 4:3, 4:9, Col 2:8, 2:20) With the temple’s destruction, any semblance of Old Covenant worship rites was made impossible. The temple was literally taken apart as Roman soldiers salvaged the melted gold from its stones.

“Looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements [temple practice] will melt with fervent heat.” V. 12
The day of the Lord was imminent. Peter’s audience would witness the demolition of the Old Covenant (their heaven and earth) with the burning of Jerusalem and the temple. Just as in Noah’s day, it would be the society of ungodly men who would be destroyed, not the entire creation.

 

[didactics]

2 Peter 3:5-12

“For they willfully forget that there were heavens from of old, and an earth formed out of water and amid water by the word of God, by which means the world [social order] that existed then, being overflowed with water, perished.” Vv. 5-6
The mockers willfully forgot their history regarding Noah’s day when the unrighteous were swept from the land. It is important to note the physical earth was not destroyed with the flood, but rather, the world of ungodly men. The same would be true of the coming national judgment of Israel and the destruction of the Old Covenant in AD 70.

But the heavens that exist now and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” V. 7
“Heaven and earth” was a figure of speech used for the Mosaic Covenant (“I…have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, ‘You are my people.’” Is 51:16) But Jesus taught the covenant relationship was broken and would be abolished with the destruction of Jerusalem. (The King “sent his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.” Mt. 22:7) “Fire” denotes God’s wrath, is purifying, and was the chief weapon of war in ancient times. Jesus said he came to throw fire on earth in reference to the coming national judgment.

“But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but he is patient with us, not wishing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Vv. 8-9
A 40 year period (a generation) was given for Israel to repent and come to faith in their Messiah. At Peter’s writing, approximately 35 years had passed and detractors were ridiculing the veracity of the prophecy.

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat; and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” V. 10
Here we have typical Hebraic eschatological pictorial language in reference to the uprooting of the Old Covenant social order. The “world” of covenant Israel would be destroyed. The Greek word “elements” [#4747 stoixeíon] referred to the elements of religious training or ceremonial precepts. (See: He 5:12, Gal 4:3, 4:9, Col 2:8, 2:20) With the temple’s destruction, any semblance of Old Covenant worship rites was made impossible. The temple was literally taken apart as Roman soldiers salvaged the melted gold from its stones.

“Looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements [temple practice] will melt with fervent heat.” V. 12
The day of the Lord was imminent. Peter’s audience would witness the demolition of the Old Covenant (their heaven and earth) with the burning of Jerusalem and the temple. Just as in Noah’s day, it would be the society of ungodly men who would be destroyed, not the entire creation.

Now I agree with most of what you're saying here, but I wonder if the two worlds existed simultaneously during the time the New Testament was written. I wonder if the new heavens and earth was inaugurated in the church age even while the temple stood.

The mockers willfully forgot their history regarding Noah’s day when the unrighteous were swept from the land. It is important to note the physical earth was not destroyed with the flood, but rather, the world of ungodly men. The same would be true of the coming national judgment of Israel and the destruction of the Old Covenant in AD 70.

Am I misunderstanding you here or are you saying you don't believe the flood was global?

 

[Ephesians321]

Now I agree with most of what you're saying here, but I wonder if the two worlds existed simultaneously during the time the New Testament was written. I wonder if the new heavens and earth was inaugurated in the church age even while the temple stood.

Am I misunderstanding you here or are you saying you don't believe the flood was global.

I believe the flood was massive regional flood.

The Nephilim were on the earth before and after the flood demonstrating they were not wiped out by the waters.
Before the flood: “The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.” Ge 6:4
After the flood: “There we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who come of the Nephilim…”. Num. 13:33

Noah’s great grandson, Nimrod, ruled four cities and built/rebuilt four other cities. This, as well as the building of the tower of Babel, implies huge numbers of workers and large populations far greater than Noah’s descendants. “The beginning of his [Nimrod’s] kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. Out of that land he went forth into Assyria, and built Nineveh, Rehoboth-Ir, Calah, and Resen…”. Ge 10:10-12

Ark: practical considerations Noah is commonly thought to have been in the ark for over a year—see Genesis 7:4 to 8:14. A cow eats 8,000 pounds of food and drinks 8,000 pounds of water a year. A person eats 1,500 pounds of food and 1,500 pounds of water a year. One begins to see problems with the need for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pounds of food and water for the year and ways to store and avoid spoilage. What about fecal matter, predators, mating and off-spring? These are just a few of many considerations.

 

[didactics]

I believe the flood was massive regional flood.

The Nephilim were on the earth before and after the flood demonstrating they were not wiped out by the waters.
Before the flood: “The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.” Ge 6:4
After the flood: “There we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who come of the Nephilim…”. Num. 13:33

Noah’s great grandson, Nimrod, ruled four cities and built/rebuilt four other cities. This, as well as the building of the tower of Babel, implies huge numbers of workers and large populations far greater than Noah’s descendants. “The beginning of his [Nimrod’s] kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. Out of that land he went forth into Assyria, and built Nineveh, Rehoboth-Ir, Calah, and Resen…”. Ge 10:10-12

Ark: practical considerations Noah is commonly thought to have been in the ark for over a year—see Genesis 7:4 to 8:14. A cow eats 8,000 pounds of food and drinks 8,000 pounds of water a year. A person eats 1,500 pounds of food and 1,500 pounds of water a year. One begins to see problems with the need for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pounds of food and water for the year and ways to store and avoid spoilage. What about fecal matter, predators, mating and off-spring? These are just a few of many considerations.

That's interesting, as it's only recently that I've considered the Nephilim to be a giant (hybrid) offspring of the fallen angels, if that's what you're saying. I think they were all wiped out from the flood, but they reappeared afterward as a result of more fallen angels doing the same thing. Tim Chaffey wrote a book on it called, "Fallen: The Sons of God and the Nephilim."

As far as the animals on the ark, Answers in Genesis have great articles to explain this stuff. One thing they reason is that the animals must have been at a junior age.