Why is earth's AGE important to you?

[Ephesians321]

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away = Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left = for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:

1. One left dead in the field. One taken alive captive in the field, distributed, and sold throughout the Roman Empire as slaves.

until the day that Noe entered into the ark = Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: = Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled

2. Noah fled to the ark to escape the flood. Jewish-Christians fled to the mountains to escape the Roman siege of Jerusalem.

 

[didactics]

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away = Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left = for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:

1. One left dead in the field. One taken alive captive in the field, distributed, and sold throughout the Roman Empire as slaves.

until the day that Noe entered into the ark = Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: = Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled

2. Noah entered to the ark to escape the flood. Jewish-Christians fled to the mountains to escape the Roman siege of Jerusalem.

Now, I can't argue with this. That sounds like a reasonable way this may be applied. However, it is my understanding that "these things" in Mt 24:34 only applies to their generation in the 1st century whereas "that day and hour" in verse 36 may have two ways of being applied. In Matt. 24:37-41 we are given an idea of the judgment day. Granted, I need to study more on this chapter and listen to what other commentators have said about it, but I am convinced of one thing. I think there are ways to apply it to the destruction of Jerusalem but the word is also given to us that we may know how to apply its meaning today. But if somehow this does not seem clear it is most certainly in the next chapter. There is no doubt in my mind that a final judgment is spoken of and it involves the whole world.

 

[Ephesians321]

Now, I can't argue with this. That sounds like a reasonable way this may be applied. However, it is my understanding that "these things" in Mt 24:34 only applies to their generation in the 1st century whereas "that day and hour" in verse 36 may have two ways of being applied. In Matt. 24:37-41 we are given an idea of the judgment day. Granted, I need to study more on this chapter and listen to what other commentators have said about it, but I am convinced of one thing. I think there are ways to apply it to the destruction of Jerusalem but the word is also given to us that we may know how to apply its meaning today. But if somehow this does not seem clear it is most certainly in the next chapter. There is no doubt in my mind that a final judgment is spoken of and it involves the whole world.

The Great White Throne does not occur on any earthly stage, it is Christ seated on the Throne of David in Heaven while Hades surrenders all of her dead for judgment (the Resurrection). Once all prophecies and promises are fulfilled and the Temple is destroyed and the Mosaic Age officially passes away with absolute finality is approximate to when Heaven also opens to receive the Resurrection from out of Hadean Paradise, 1 Thessalonians 4:16. And the dead in Christ rise first (because they are already in Hadean Paradise awaiting their Resurrection into Heaven) but every Christian whom was alive during the 70 A.D. Parousia and well beyond it will too eventually pass on by an individual basis will continually and immediately be Resurrected and received into Heaven forever thereafter, 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The Kingdom is now. Our eternal inheritance is in Heaven but never here on earth.

 

[oikonomia]

Our eternal inheritance is in Heaven but never here on earth.

Then why does John see a new heaven AND . . . a new earth ?

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.(Rev. 21:1,2)

Among the final signs shown us is the Bride and Wife of Christ coming down out of heaven.
If God wanted to communicate that His Son's matching counterpart remained in Heaven forever
He would not have shown her "coming down." Am I right?

Here's a song to accompany this great sign from Revelation.

 

[didactics]

The Great White Throne does not occur on any earthly stage, it is Christ seated on the Throne of David in Heaven while Hades surrenders all of her dead for judgment (the Resurrection). Once all prophecies and promises are fulfilled and the Temple is destroyed and the Mosaic Age officially passes away with absolute finality is approximate to when Heaven also opens to receive the Resurrection from out of Hadean Paradise, 1 Thessalonians 4:16. And the dead in Christ rise first (because they are already in Hadean Paradise awaiting their Resurrection into Heaven) but every Christian whom was alive during the 70 A.D. Parousia and well beyond it will too eventually pass on by an individual basis will continually and immediately be Resurrected and received into Heaven forever thereafter, 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The Kingdom is now. Our eternal inheritance is in Heaven but never here on earth.

but every Christian whom was alive during the 70 A.D. Parousia and well beyond it will too eventually pass on by an individual basis will continually and immediately be Resurrected and received into Heaven forever thereafter, 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

This has not been the position of the church as I'm sure you're aware of the Apotles' Creed. If there is but one thing still future it would be a general judgment followed by the resurrection of the body. It cannot refer to something that is happenstance but will involve all people at one time. And in case you didn't notice, the gospel is a message of victory; Christ will have complete rule in heaven and on earth.

But I will leave it at that. I made all the arguments I can think of.

 

[oikonomia]

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away = Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left = for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:

1. One left dead in the field. One taken alive captive in the field, distributed, and sold throughout the Roman Empire as slaves.

until the day that Noe entered into the ark = Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: = Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled

2. Noah fled to the ark to escape the flood. Jewish-Christians fled to the mountains to escape the Roman siege of Jerusalem.

The secretive rapture unannounced, sudden, unexpected of Matthew 24:32-44 is one future event.
The public, announced, open and spectacular rapture of First Thessalonians 4:15-18 is another future event soon after the first.
And the trumpet blasting gathering of Israel in Matt. 24:31 is not the same event the secretive, unexpected rapture of the two Christians
going about thier typical daily duties or sleeping in Matt. 24:40-41; Luke 17:34-35. (I should say "one is taken and one is left")

The disciples that Jesus is teaching in Matthew 24 have two statuses (for lack of a better word).
They are national constituents of the nation of Israel - another status. (vs. 1-31)
They are members of the church - one status. (vs. 32-25:30)

In Matthew 24 the Lord's prophecies to them have in mind these TWO "positions".
We should read Matt. 24:1-31 more through the lense of them being Israelites.
We should read Matt. 24:32-25:30 more through the lense of them being members of the church.

Of course it is important to remember that they are members of BOTH groups simultaneously.
So the exhortations are not verses one another really but from two angles - Israelites and the church.

cont. below

 

[oikonomia]

And of course there have been events in the past which thankfully remind us of these prophetic predictions.
Eschatology is fun to speak for me only as it exalts Christ and warms up our hearts today towards Him to live Him now.
Otherwise knowing how this or that will happen will really do one no good. Mere knowledge of how things unfold will not
really equip one with the grace needed for its unfolding.

 

[Ephesians321]

This has has not been the position of the church as I'm sure you're aware of the Apotles' Creed. If there is but one thing still future it would be a general judgment followed by the resurrection of the body. It cannot refer to something that is happenstance but will involve all people at one time. And in case you didn't notice, the gospel is a message of victory; Christ will have complete rule in heaven and on earth.

But I will leave it at that. I made all the arguments I can think of.

Unfortunately, church creeds are just that - man's traditions. I am convinced throughout church history the church has basically raised and indoctrinated generations upon generations of eschatological doubting Thomases. Christ reigns, rules, and judges from Heaven providentially now and forevermore. The church has made the same mistake the Jews did during his earthly ministry that caused them to reject and plot to kill Christ, and that is they believed their Messiah is going to establish a kingdom here on earth. They forced carnal interpretations upon the Spiritual revelation of the Kingdom of Heaven. But Christ is not going to ever end history here on earth. He was already coronated as King upon his ascension into Heaven. The Church is probably still going to be preaching the Second Coming of Christ and the Rapture in 3023.

 

[Ephesians321]

Then why does John see a new heaven AND . . . a new earth ?

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.(Rev. 21:1,2)

Among the final signs shown us is the Bride and Wife of Christ coming down out of heaven.
If God wanted to communicate that His Son's matching counterpart remained in Heaven forever
He would not have shown her "coming down." Am I right?

Here's a song to accompany this great sign from Revelation.

HEAVEN AND EARTH HAVE ALREADY PASSED AWAY

IThe Bible often speaks of the heavens and earth in its literal sense as in Genesis 1:1, but it also uses these terms metaphorically, figuratively. It is this second use that we will examineinherent.

1. Two main ages Generally speaking, first century Jews had the conception of two ages—the Mosaic Age and the Messianic Age— also called the Old Covenant and New Covenant. (Jer. 31:31f). Because the New Testament writers lived before the definitive end of the Mosaic Covenant in AD 70, they describe the two ages as “this age” (Mosaic) and “the age to come” (Messianic, Christian, Kingdom of God). The latter is the New Heaven and New Earth.

2. In Hebrew thought, “Heavens and Earth” were figurative for the political/social/religious order of a people.
A. This prophecy concerning the coming destruction of Babylon by the Medes, was stated in terms of destroying their heaven and earth. “Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place in the wrath of Yahweh of Armies, and in the day of his fierce anger.” Is. 13:13
B. In this scripture, God is outraged with Israel’s rebellion and waywardness. “Hear, heavens, and listen, earth; for Yahweh has spoken: ‘I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.’” Is. 1:2 C. Prophecy: Yahweh’s special “heavens and earth” will rejoice at the destruction of Babylon. “Then the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, shall sing for joy over Babylon; for the destroyers shall come to her from the north, says Yahweh.” Jer. 51:48

3. God created a covenantal “heavens and earth” when he chose Israel to be His people. Here Isaiah reminds the Jews of the special protective relationship they enjoy with Yahweh. “I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, 'You are my people.'" Is 51:16

4. Jesus prophesied that the old “heaven and earth” would pass when every bit of the law and prophets was accomplished. This was the passing of the Old Covenant which signaled the beginning of the New. "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.” Mt. 5: 17.

5. Jesus prophesied that His generation would see the end of the old "heaven and earth”. “Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away, until all these things are accomplished. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” Mt. 24:34-35.

6. Yahweh promised a “new heavens and earth” after the Mosaic “heavens and earth" passed. "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.” Is 65: 17

7. In his vision, John saw the new “heaven and earth” replace the old Mosaic “heaven and earth”. “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away…” Rev. 21:1

8. Peter welcomed the destruction of the Old Covenant and installation of the New Covenant. “But the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men…But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.” 2 Peter 3:7, 13

9. What does history report regarding the old “heavens and earth”?
The temple was destroyed by fire in 70 AD. The records of priestly succession were also destroyed annulling any reconstitution of the Aaronic Priesthood. Without a temple, priesthood, altar, records, etc. there were no traces of the first Mosaic heaven and earth left by the winter of AD 70.

Heaven and Earth is an ancient Middle Eastern cultural idea featuring hyperbolic, figurative language with metaphoric symbols that is misunderstood by Western readers who interprete it incorrectly with rigid hyperliteralism that they miss the core message. Here is an proper ancient Egyptian example of their "Heaven and Earth". Old Covenant & Temple cultus is Heaven and Earth, the New Covenant & Church is the New Heaven and New Earth. What heaven and earth is passing away? The Mosaic Age and its Temple cultus.

 

[Ephesians321]

ELEMENTS WILL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT (2 Peter 3)

2 Peter 3 is often cited as proof positive the coming of the Lord is future because they believe it teaches all the physical elements of earth and heaven are going to burn in a world-ending conflagration, which, obviously, has not happened. We will take a look at this passage in the context of the first century readers to whom it was written.

1. “In the last days mockers will come, walking after their own lusts and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” Vv. 3-4
“The last days” was a reference to the last days of the Old Covenant.*
Jesus prophesied the “coming of the Son of Man” and the destruction of the temple would occur in the disciple’s generation. Now, approximately 34 years later, around late AD 64, the temple was still standing and temple worship continued just as it had for so many years.

2. “For they willfully forget that there were heavens from of old, and an earth formed out of water and amid water by the word of God, by which means the world [social order] that existed then, being overflowed with water, perished.” Vv. 5-6
The mockers willfully forgot their history regarding Noah’s day when the unrighteous were swept from the land. It is important to note the physical earth was not destroyed with the flood, but rather, the world of ungodly men. The same would be true of the coming national judgment of Israel and the destruction of the Old Covenant in AD 70.

3. “But the heavens that exist now and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” V. 7
“Heaven and earth” was a figure of speech used for the Mosaic Covenant (“I…have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, ‘You are my people.’” Is 51:16) But Jesus taught the covenant relationship was broken and would be abolished with the destruction of Jerusalem. (The King “sent his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.” Mt. 22:7) “Fire” denotes God’s wrath, is purifying, and was the chief weapon of war in ancient times. Jesus said he came to throw fire on earth in reference to the coming national judgment.

4. “But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but he is patient with us, not wishing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Vv. 8-9
A 40 year period (a generation) was given for Israel to repent and come to faith in their Messiah. At Peter’s writing, approximately 35 years had passed and detractors were ridiculing the veracity of the prophecy.

5. “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat; and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” V. 10
Here we have typical Hebraic eschatological pictorial language in reference to the uprooting of the Old Covenant social order.** The “world” of covenant Israel would be destroyed. The Greek word “elements” [#4747 stoixeíon] referred to the elements of religious training or ceremonial precepts. (See: He 5:12, Gal 4:3, 4:9, Col 2:8, 2:20) With the temple’s destruction, any semblance of Old Covenant worship rites was made impossible. The temple was literally taken apart as Roman soldiers salvaged the melted gold from its stones.

6. “Looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements [temple practice] will melt with fervent heat.” V. 12
The day of the Lord was imminent. Peter’s audience would witness the demolition of the Old Covenant (their heaven and earth) with the burning of Jerusalem and the temple. Just as in Noah’s day, it would be the society of ungodly men who would be destroyed, not the entire creation.

7. “We look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.” V. 13
The destruction of the Old Covenant ushered in the New more perfect Covenant. The essence of the new heaven and new earth is reconciliation with God. “God with us” is our present reality.

WERE THERE ZEALOTS IN THE JERUSALEM CHURCH?

Peter was writing in response to false teachers in the church, and, from our recent studies, their description in 2 Peter 2 is familiar to us. Their boorish, uncouth demeanor reminds us of the zealots we encounter in Josephus’ “Wars of the Jews”. Peter identified his ministry as taking place in “Babylon” (I Peter 5:13), which we have determined to be Jerusalem, where the zealot movement was gaining strength. The following is a brief comparison of Peter’s description and zealot behavior during the war.

1. “…those who walk after the flesh in the lust of defilement [degradation] and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries…” V. 10
Jesus, the high priest reported: “They [zealots] are robbers, who by their prodigious wickedness have profaned this most sacred floor [temple], and who are to be now seen drinking themselves drunk in the sanctuary, and expending the spoils of those whom they have slaughtered upon their insatiable bellies.” Wars 4.4.3

2. “But these, as unreasoning beasts, creatures of instinct to be taken and destroyed, speaking evil in matters about which they are ignorant, will in their destroying surely be destroyed.” V. 12
High priest Jesus, son of Gamaliel, referred to the zealots as wild beasts: “And this place [Jerusalem], which is adored by the habitable world… is trampled upon by these wild beasts born among ourselves.” Wars 4.4.3

3. “Receiving the wages of unrighteousness; people who count it pleasure to revel [carouse] in the daytime, spots and defects, reveling in their deceit while they feast with you;” V. 13
The zealots dressed up like prostitutes: “while their faces looked like the faces of women, they killed with their right hands; and when their gait was effeminate, they presently attacked men, and became warriors, and drew their swords from under their finely dyed cloaks, and ran every body through whom they alighted upon.” Wars 4.9.10

4. “…having eyes full of adultery, and who can’t cease from sin, enticing unsettled souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children!” V. 14
“Their [zealots] inclination to plunder was insatiable, as was their zeal in searching the houses of the rich; and for the murdering of the men, and abusing of the women, it was sport to them.” Wars 4.9.10

5. Uttering great swelling words of emptiness, they entice in the lusts of the flesh, by licentiousness [lacking moral restraint], those who are indeed escaping from those who live in error. V.18
“But for John [zealot leader]… went about among all the people, and persuaded them to go to war, by the hopes he gave them. He affirmed that the affairs of the Romans were in a weak condition, and extolled his own power.” Wars 4.3.1

6. “Promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption.” V. 19
The slogan of zealotry was to have only God as their ruler, however, they worshipped the gods of power and wealth.

Notes: For more illustrations of the nature of the zealots, see Josephus, “The Wars of the Jews”, books 4 to 6

 

[oikonomia]

HEAVEN AND EARTH HAVE ALREADY PASSED AWAY

IThe Bible often speaks of the heavens and earth in its literal sense as in Genesis 1:1, but it also uses these terms metaphorically, figuratively. It is this second use that we will examineinherent.

1. Two main ages Generally speaking, first century Jews had the conception of two ages—the Mosaic Age and the Messianic Age— also called the Old Covenant and New Covenant. (Jer. 31:31f). Because the New Testament writers lived before the definitive end of the Mosaic Covenant in AD 70, they describe the two ages as “this age” (Mosaic) and “the age to come” (Messianic, Christian, Kingdom of God). The latter is the New Heaven and New Earth.

Whew! One intellectual power house are you.
Well, I will give a reason for the hope that is within me.
I don't know if I can respond to every bullet item.

First I believe when the Apostle Paul speaks of "this age but also in that which is to come" he was thinking mainly
as an apostle with revelation from God not as a cultural Jew.

Which He [God] caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies,
Far above all rule and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named not only in this age but also in that which is to come;
(Eph. 1:20,21)

"[T]his age" surely commences or at least includes the resurrection and ascension of Christ.
That is the new covenant church age which Christians are in now.
"[T]hat which is to come" is the age immediately following the second coming of Christ which concludes this age.

It may be interesting how the Jews thought of these things. But this is what God revealed to Paul.
And I think he is echoing what Jesus taught.

Hebrews 9:28 nicely reveals His coming and His second coming embracing one age.
So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time to those who eagerly await Him, apart from sin, unto salvation. (Heb. 9:28)

This age, the church age, is in between these two comings of Christ.

2. In Hebrew thought, “Heavens and Earth” were figurative for the political/social/religious order of a people.

I believe the age of a new heaven and a new earth is not immediately following Christ appearing on earth "a second time."
It is at least 1,000 years after this second coming. The norms and customs of Jewish thought notwithstanding the revelation
of God's oracles mention about six times a thousand years before the final destruction of Satan, death, all God's enemies.
I refer to Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7.

When it says Satan must be loosed for a little while after being bound for a thousand years, I don't know how long that is.
And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while. (Rev. 20:3)

There is a partial "restoration" of nature during these thousand years.
My belief is that it is partial because only a portion of the total sons of God have been matured and perfected.
When the total number of sons of God are perfected then the total old creation will be renewed radically for the
completely "new heaven and new earth in which righteousness dwells."

I mean the church age followed by the restoration [or regeneration] (Matt. 19:28) (partial) followed by some unknown "little while" followed by the full renovation of the old universe.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more. (Rev. 21:1)
But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.(2 Pet. 3:13)

What the Christians often overlook is that the drive shaft to the renovation / renewal / total overhauling of the creation is the
maturity of the sons of God. We take the lead the universe follows. So while not all the sons are manifested not all of creation is
made new. While partial number of sons have overcome to be manifested a partial part of creation follows in renewal.

For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.
For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,

In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.

And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:19-23)

After this present church age is the millennial kingdom age. It is a time of REWARD and DISCIPLINE.
Reward to those who Christ deemed as overcomers and a discipline to those He judges as defeated.

Since it is a remnant and minority who will likely be rewarded the rest need time to be disciplined in a remedial manner
and perfected to become overcomers. After the thousand years (and some) ALL His sons are perfected.
It is then time for the entire old creation to be rolled up, burned away, melted, dissolved and replaced.

In that creation all the opposition party to God is gone and ONLY righteousness dwells in maturity. (2 Pet. 3:13)
This doesn't answer all questions. I think it answers the major ones we need to know as the church.

Part of the being of the regenerated believers is already in that new universe - our reborn human spirit.
Man takes the lead to enter into new creation. The environment follows man not procedes.

Pushback usually comes from Christian brothers in that they do not believe after the second coming of Christ
there could be punishment / disipline to those for whom eternal redemption is secured.

Many have a idea that God's hands are somehow tied so that He can no longer perfect some
of His eternally redeemed saints who still need this by the time of His coming a second time.

But the apostolic teaching is crystal clear. For example: Some saved forever are rewarded and some saved forever suffer loss.

For another foundation no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

But if anyone builds upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble,
The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.

If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

Did we miss something? Some are SAVED and rewarded. Some are SAVED and suffer loss (not rewarded but disciplined).
This should be in the following age of the millennial kingdom.
The judgment seat of Christ before "we all" [saved Chriastians] must appear is at His second coming at the end of the church age.
See Romans 14:10 and 2 Cor . 5:10.

A. This prophecy concerning the coming destruction of Babylon by the Medes, was stated in terms of destroying their heaven and earth. “Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place in the wrath of Yahweh of Armies, and in the day of his fierce anger.” Is. 13:13
B. In this scripture, God is outraged with Israel’s rebellion and waywardness. “Hear, heavens, and listen, earth; for Yahweh has spoken: ‘I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.’” Is. 1:2 C. Prophecy: Yahweh’s special “heavens and earth” will rejoice at the destruction of Babylon. “Then the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, shall sing for joy over Babylon; for the destroyers shall come to her from the north, says Yahweh.” Jer. 51:48

It is good to see parallel examples in history to prophecy. But we should not to the point of obscuring or obliterating what
is clearly prophecy for the Christian church.

For example all His warnings in Matthew 24 to watch and be ready are concerning His coming "a second time."
They are not merely warnings to watch for the destruction of Jerusalem's temple or its devastation.

For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming. (Matt. 24:44)
It is not mainly warning to watch for some Roman general but for the second coming of Himself - Christ.

Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
Truly I say to you that he will set him over all his possessions. (v.46,47)

This a promise of reward. It is not automatic. It is pending on readiness and cooperation.
It is not a matter of seeing the destruction of His possessions but being set over them.

For length's sake I stop here. I did read the rest of your points.
I end this post here and may continue to explain reasons for the hope that is within me.

 

[oikonomia]

3. God created a covenantal “heavens and earth” when he chose Israel to be His people. Here Isaiah reminds the Jews of the special protective relationship they enjoy with Yahweh. “I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, 'You are my people.'" Is 51:16

Well, I understand God still has Messianic promises to fulfill with national Israel.

You know when Peter speaks of new heaven and new earth he is talking "elements" - physical things.
He speaks of dissolving, melting away, a roaring, intense heat burning up the physical world.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements, burning with intense heat, will be dissolved, and the earth and the works in it will be burned up.

Since all these things are to be thus dissolved, what kind of persons ought you to be in holy manner of life and godliness,

Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away?

But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. (2 Pet. 10-13)

Something just as significant though is here. Peter says God wants His saints to arrive at the state by which he
described the Savior. That is the Son of God came without blemish and without spot. And Peter exhorts the Chistians
to allow God to bring them into essentially the same state.

Christ - you were redeemed . . . with precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ; (1 Pet. 1:18,19)

The saints of Christ - Therefore, beloved, since you expect these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace without spot and without blemish; (2 Pet. 3:14)

This of course matches Paul's revelation of the transformed saints completely prepared as a spotless wife to our Redeemer Christ.
It matches John's vision of the New Jerusalem prepared as a bride adorned for her husband at history's end.

And Peter exhorts that God has made full provision (all things which relate to life and godliness) for this salvation giving us precious and exceedingly great promises
by which we may become partakers of the divine nature.

Seeing that His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the full knowledge of Him who has called us by His own glory and virtue,
Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust. (2 Pet. 1:3,4)

Some, throughout the church age take advantage of this provision. All will eventually take this provision.
Those who take it is a timely manner are called "more than conquerors" or we can say "overcomers."

By the time of the new heaven and new earth in totality the early and the overcomers all partake of the GIFT of that eternal blessing.

He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me. (Rev. 21:7)

We can postpone His salvation. We can procrastinate. We cannot hault it completely.
He has time to give us all the incentive to cooperate.

 

[didactics]

Unfortunately, church creeds are just that - man's traditions.

Church creeds are only man's traditions if they do not accurately summarize the teaching of Scripture. Reformed churches consider the Apostles' Creed to be the best summary of the basic doctrines of the Christian faith.

Christ reigns, rules, and judges from Heaven providentially now and forevermore. The church has made the same mistake the Jews did during his earthly ministry that caused them to reject and plot to kill Christ, and that is they believed their Messiah is going to establish a kingdom here on earth.

Christ did set up his kingdom here on earth. The difference is that it didn't happen in the way the Jewish leaders had hoped. How do I know the kingdom has been established? because it was inaugurated in the church age and as you say, we are living in the new heavens and earth.

Because the New Testament writers lived before the definitive end of the Mosaic Covenant in AD 70, they describe the two ages as “this age” (Mosaic) and “the age to come” (Messianic, Christian, Kingdom of God). The latter is the New Heaven and New Earth.

We are living in the new earth; Messiah has established his kingdom on earth. For the Jewish leaders had hoped he would set up his kingdom by force, but in dying and raising again he set it up through his church that the gospel kingdom win hearts and souls.

They forced carnal interpretations upon the Spiritual revelation of the Kingdom of Heaven. But Christ is not going to ever end history here on earth. He was already coronated as King upon his ascension into Heaven.

In the hope that more and more willfully bow the knee to Christ and cause reform, it has a real impact in the world. There is tangible evidence when God's people reform their lives and it has an influence beyond the family and the sphere of the church. Imagine if more of our leaders were faithful men? Do I want forced conversion? of course not. That you might call carnal but not genuine reformation. Let's face it, you can't stand that many faithful Christians throughout church history have believed in the resurrection of the quick and the dead (in the natural sense).

 

[Ephesians321]

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there THE TREE OF LIFE, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and THE LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS.

BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES OF THE CITY.

FOR WITHOUT are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.*
Revelation 22:2,14-15

*(Who? Aren't they supposed be completely gone after the bodily Resurrection? See Isaiah 65:20 and Isaiah 66:24)

 

[didactics]

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there THE TREE OF LIFE, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and THE LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS.

BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES OF THE CITY.

FOR WITHOUT are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.*
Revelation 22:2,14-15

*(Who? Aren't they supposed be completely gone after the bodily Resurrection? See Isaiah 65:20 and Isaiah 66:24)

No, the wicked will be resurrected too. They will go to the lake of fire. Where exactly that is does anyone know? Do we know where heaven and hell is now? Where is the spiritual realm? How are we given vision of it when we are disembodied spirits? Is Hades in the heart of the earth? These are all mind-boggling questions. Who the hell knows.

 

[Ephesians321]

If we are bodily resurrected and no sin exists, why then is there a Tree of Life and its leaves are for the healing of the nations yet only Christians that love and do his commandments may have right to the Tree of Life and may enter the city? But the sinners are without (outside)? Revelation 22:14-15 is only speaking about the living why would dead need to eat?

 

[didactics]

If we are bodily resurrected and no sin exists, why then is there a Tree of Life and its leaves are for the healing of the nations yet only Christians that love and do his commandments are allowed to eat of that Tree of Life and also allowed to enter the city? But the unsaved do not enter the city nor eat of the Tree of Life? Revelation 22:14-15 is only speaking about the living why would dead need to eat?

This speaks of quality of life. Since it is the ECT view that unbelievers will be given a body too, they won't be in a healthful and vigorous state as believers.

 

[Ephesians321]

This speaks of quality of life. Since it is the ECT view that unbelievers will be given a body too, they won't be in a healthful and vigorous state as believers.

Wait let's clear the air, does your Bodily Resurrection occur before or after the New Heavens and New Earth? And where exactly are the Resurrected believers and Resurrected unbelievers?

Because according to my spiritual Resurrection belief, believers may have right to eat of the Tree of Life in the city of New Jerusalem? But simultaneously sinners and disbelievers though still remain outside of New Jerusalem with its Tree of Life they still have a opportunity enter in through Christ and be healed.

 

[didactics]

Wait let's clear the air, does your Bodily Resurrection occur before or after the New Heavens and New Earth? And where exactly are the Resurrected believers and Resurrected unbelievers?

Because according to my spiritual Resurrection belief, believers may have right to eat of the Tree of Life in the city of New Jerusalem? But simultaneously sinners and disbelievers though still remain outside of New Jerusalem with its Tree of Life they still have a opportunity enter in through Christ and be healed.

Well it was only recently that I heard of this view espoused by Doug Wilson that the new heavens and earth is now, when the church age was inaugurated. His reasoning was that 2 Peter 3:10-13 uses the language in Isaiah 65:17; 66:22 and he compared it to the book of Jude. But he goes on to say there's a progression in the culmination of glory. What happens in the resurrection is the culmination of the process of the new heavens and earth, not the inauguration of it. In the resurrection the created order as we know it will be transformed.

 

[Ephesians321]

Well it was only recently that I heard of this view espoused by Doug Wilson that the new heavens and earth is now, when the church age was inaugurated. His reasoning was that 2 Peter 3:10-13 uses the language in Isaiah 65:17; 66:22 and he compared it to the book of Jude. But he goes on to say there's a progression in the culmination of glory. What happens in the resurrection is the culmination of the process of the new heavens and earth, not the inauguration of it. In the resurrection the created order as we know it will be transformed.

So you are Reformed and an Amillenialist?

Remember the inauguration of the New Heaven and New Earth which marks "last days" (A.D. 30 to A.D. 70, past tense), "end of the age" (A.D. 30 to A.D.70, past tense) and is "the age to come" (A.D. 70 to A.D. 2023+) occurs at the destruction of Jerusalem and the Old Heaven and Old Earth which is "this age" (A.D. 30 to A.D. 70, past tense) when all things shall be finished/fulfilled before "this generation" (A.D. 30 to A.D. 70, past tense) passes away.

Remember the judgment of Israel and Jerusalem can not be divorced from the Resurrection. And Resurrection can not be divorced from the judgment of Israel and Jerusalem. Because the judgment of Israel and Jerusalem marks the time when all things shall be finished including the Resurrection. Daniel 12:2,6-7