Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Vanellus]

What the 'Holy Books' say conditions culture.

Try reading the Bible - start with the book of John...

The Bible states that all have sinned: Jews, Christians and Muslims.

 

[Desk trauma]

They rejected all gods since most claim no belief. But God is not finished with them. He has a whole seven years set aside to deal with them good and proper and bring them to a place of repentance

I can almost hear the giddiness.

 

[Desk trauma]

No, children are not fruit. Nor should they be targeted by bombs indiscriminately.

Per your posts so long as they are quit young I don't see why not, after all free ticket to heaven rather then growing up to be Muslim and be damned for it.

 

[o_mlly]

The Israelis chose to use ariel bombarment methods they knew would inflict mass casulaties on innocents. Is that just?

If one judges that the evil effect is not proportional to the good effect then the act is immoral and not permitted. Prudential judgments regarding future effects are always imperfect and, of course, arguable.

 

[o_mlly]

As I'm sure you are aware, jus ad bellum requires a reasonable prospect of success; war can't be justified if the prospect of success is low. History has shown that the use of military force on terror groups is rarely successful—less than 10%. Do you consider a less than 10% chance of ending Hamas a reasonable prospect of success?

In addition, Israel's intelligence capabilities are among the best in the world; they also have some of the most elite special forces and possess some of the most sophisticated precision-guided missiles in the world. An all-out war in Gaza wasn't necessary to go after those responsible for the October 7th terrorist attack or to make an attempt to eliminate Hamas. Destroying an immense amount of infrastructure, which has resulted in the loss of thousands of innocent civilian lives, was not a last resort for Israel, which just ad bellum also requires.

A probability of less than 50% of successfully prosecuting a just war would render that war unjust. However, the calculation is a prudential judgement. As posted above, prudential judgements about future events are always subject to error and arguable.

Was not the war against ISIS successfully prosecuted?

If less harmful methods can be employed to successfully prosecute a just war then those means should be employed. The soldiers prosecuting a just war are also innocent persons. The calculation on all innocent lives lost in the methods employed to prosecute a just war must also include those numbers as well.

 

[JosephZ]

Was not the war against ISIS successfully prosecuted?

No. ISIS has remained the deadliest terror group globally each year for the past eight years.

 

[truthpls]

I can almost hear the giddiness.

I am happy God is giving Israel another chance and that some of them will be wonderfully saved and restored in the end.

 

[truthpls]

Per your posts so long as they are quit young I don't see why not, after all free ticket to heaven rather then growing up to be Muslim and be damned for it.

You seem pretty cynical

 

[essentialsaltes]

IDF commanders ignored lookouts' warnings over Hamas massacre - report​

The lookouts warned that they had seen unusual actions taking place next to the border in the months leading up to October 7.​

The lookouts felt that they weren't being heard; one of them decided to go directly to a senior commander in the area and was told "I don't want to hear again about this nonsense. If you all bother us again with these things, you'll be court-martialed."

 

[wing2000]

You seem pretty cynical

....move on please. The thread isn't about theology. Or other member's beliefs.

 

[Desk trauma]

You seem pretty cynical

I’m working from the content of your posts.

 

[Valletta]

100% assumption 0% evidence

You've got that reversed.

 

[Valletta]

IDF commanders ignored lookouts' warnings over Hamas massacre - report​

The lookouts warned that they had seen unusual actions taking place next to the border in the months leading up to October 7.​

The lookouts felt that they weren't being heard; one of them decided to go directly to a senior commander in the area and was told "I don't want to hear again about this nonsense. If you all bother us again with these things, you'll be court-martialed."

Reminds me of Pearl Harbor. And also the pleas from Minnesota FBI agents to Washington that a Muslim was learning to fly a jumbo jet but refused all efforts to teach him how to land. And the pleas from conservatives that the Biden border policies have and will increase sex trafficking and criminals and the number of terrorists entering our country,

 

[Carl Emerson]

A huge non sequitur

Well, that is one way you avoid the evidence I guess...

 

[Carl Emerson]

The Bible states that all have sinned: Jews, Christians and Muslims.

So... what is your point ?

 

[Chesterton]

Hamas certainly did.

The Israelis chose to use ariel bombarment methods they knew would inflict mass casulaties on innocents. Is that just?

Yes, it's just, even though the result is unjust. You have to separate the micro and the macro. Let me explain...

Take a typical American Joe in 1942. He's a shoe salesman, or a car mechanic or whatever. A civilian. He gets drafted into a war that he had nothing to do with starting. He's sent to some foreign place and dies a painful, violent death fighting for a piece of real estate he has no interest in. Is that just? Of course not. He's not blameworthy in any way. But is the fighting that he's engaged in to defeat the Axis Powers just? Yes. Just one of the many reasons why war sucks, and no one should start one, as Hamas did.

 

[o_mlly]

No. ISIS has remained the deadliest terror group globally each year for the past eight years.

February 2023 Month in Review: The Defeat ISIS Mission in Iraq and Syria

TAMPA, Fla. – During the month of February 2023, U.S. Central Command, along with coalition and other partners, conducted a total of 48 D-ISIS operations, resulting in 22 ISIS operatives killed and 25

www.centcom.mil

"These operations showcase our enduring commitment to the lasting defeat of ISIS and the continued need for targeted military efforts to prevent ISIS members from conducting attacks and regaining a foothold."

 

[Bradskii]

Did Hamas target innocent persons on October 7, 2023? Did the Israelis target innocent persons in prosecuting a just war? These are the morally relevant questions to be answered.

And easy questions to be answered. Yes and no. But all completely irrelevant to my question which still hasn't changed. How many innocent deaths will there be before reasonable people say 'enough'.

 

[essentialsaltes]

February 2023 Month in Review: The Defeat ISIS Mission in Iraq and Syria

TAMPA, Fla. – During the month of February 2023, U.S. Central Command, along with coalition and other partners, conducted a total of 48 D-ISIS operations, resulting in 22 ISIS operatives killed and 25

www.centcom.mil

"These operations showcase our enduring commitment to the lasting defeat of ISIS and the continued need for targeted military efforts to prevent ISIS members from conducting attacks and regaining a foothold."

How did you manage to skip over the first sentence? How did we kill 22 ISIS members if there is no ISIS?

Central Command is committed to defeating ISIS, not putting its feet up cracking open a cold one after having defeated them.

 

[Bradskii]

And also the pleas from Minnesota FBI agents to Washington that a Muslim was learning to fly a jumbo jet but refused all efforts to teach him how to land.

Abject nonsense. You need a bucketful of flying hours on smaller commercial jets before you're even allowed to touch the controls of large 4 engined jets. Nobody starts learning to fly a 747 except commercial pilots.