Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Carl Emerson]

I'm not asking what holy books say.

Just maybe these quotes helped to fuel the attitudes that led to the massacre you deplore...

Sura 2:93 – “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”.

Sura 9:5 – “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush”.

Sura 3:56 – “As to those who disbelieve, I will chastise them with severe chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have no helpers”.

Sura 4:56 – (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so often as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement”.

Sura 9:29 – “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth”.

Sura 4:74 – “Whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward”.

Sura 5:33 – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger… should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides”.

 

[Robban]

What the 'Holy Books' say conditions culture.

Try reading the Bible - start with the book of John...

Christians had long believed that the Talmud was the main obstacle to Jews believing in Christianity.

The Oral Law includes all that Moses learned from G-d by heart which he did not write down, but transmitted orally to his successors, generation to generation.

Due to much persecution it was decided to be written down lest it be forgotten.

A Jewish apostate, Nicholas Donin, told the Pope that the Talmud contained insults to the Christian religion.


In France on the order of the Pope , many volumes of the Talmud were seized under King Louis 1X, and 24 wagonloads were burnt publicily in Paris.

So Holy books?

Yeah, delve into them, it is like trying to empty the ocean with a spoon.

 

[Bradskii]

I don't 'trust' any human organisation.

You said you needed to wait until you got more accurate information. You couldn't comment until you did. Where are you going to get that information?

 

[Bradskii]

What the 'Holy Books' say conditions culture.

Try reading the Bible - start with the book of John...

So you don't have anything. I could give you a half dozen links that specifically deal with that specific problem. If you can't then so be it. I'll ignore what you claimed.

 

[Bradskii]

Just maybe these quotes helped to fuel the attitudes that led to the massacre you deplore...

I haven't even read them, as they were irrelevant to the claim you made. You don't have anything to back that claim up so again I will ignore it.

 

[o_mlly]

And you have to explain how many you think is acceptable. 4,000 children dead so far. If you think that figure is not correct then propose another one that you do find acceptable.

As a moral category, innocence is binary. A 10-year-old person is no "more innocent" than a 40-year-old innocent person. The phrase "children dead" surely evokes in an emotional repugnance in moral people. Although the death count of innocents is an important consideration, of more importance as a moral question is how many innocents were not collateral but targeted for death.

 

[Bradskii]

As a moral category, innocence is binary. A 10-year-old person is no "more innocent" than a 40-year-old innocent person. The phrase "children dead" surely evokes in an emotional repugnance in moral people. Although the death count of innocents is an important consideration, of more importance as a moral question is how many innocents were not collateral but targeted for death.

One could always argue that an adult bore some responsibility for the position in which they found themself. They were fighting, they wanted to fight, they were supporting those that were fighting either physically or emotionally or politically or morally, they wanted to make a stand...lots of reasons why someone might argue that they brought their death upon themselves.

That's not the case with children. They cannot be blamed in any way whatsoever.

No sane person would suggest that children are being deliberately targeted. But the question being asked is how to justify actions that nevertheless result in so many deaths. At what point does someone say 'enough.'

 

[o_mlly]

One could always argue that an adult bore some responsibility for the position in which they found themself. They were fighting, they wanted to fight, they were supporting those that were fighting either physically or emotionally or politically or morally, they wanted to make a stand...lots of reasons why someone might argue that they brought their death upon themselves.

That's not the case with children. They cannot be blamed in any way whatsoever.

No sane person would suggest that children are being deliberately targeted. But the question being asked is how to justify actions that nevertheless result in so many deaths. At what point does someone say 'enough.'

The definition of innocent, as previously posted, in wartime are all those not engaged in creating harm. A 10-year-old Palestinian shooting an AK47 at an Israeli soldier is not innocent. Categorically, the child's innocence is the same as a 40-year-old Palestinian shooting an AK47 at an Israeli soldier.

Targeting innocent persons, children or adults, is always an evil act of either a sane person or otherwise. The state of one's mental health does not change the moral evil inherent in that act.

Did Hamas target innocent persons on October 7, 2023? Did the Israelis target innocent persons in prosecuting a just war? These are the morally relevant questions to be answered.

 

[wing2000]

The definition of innocent, as previously posted, in wartime are all those not engaged in creating harm. A 10-year-old Palestinian shooting an AK47 at an Israeli soldier is not innocent. Categorically, the child's innocence is the same as a 40-year-old Palestinian shooting an AK47 at an Israeli soldier.

Targeting innocent persons, children or adults, is always an evil act of either a sane person or otherwise. The state of one's mental health does not change the moral evil inherent in that act.

Did Hamas target innocent persons on October 7, 2023? Did the Israelis target innocent persons in prosecuting a just war? These are the morally relevant questions to be answered.

Hamas certainly did.

The Israelis chose to use ariel bombarment methods they knew would inflict mass casulaties on innocents. Is that just?

 

[JosephZ]

Given that Israel meets the ius ad bellum conditions, the issue reduces to Israel conducting the war according to the standards of ius in bellum.

As I'm sure you are aware, jus ad bellum requires a reasonable prospect of success; war can't be justified if the prospect of success is low. History has shown that the use of military force on terror groups is rarely successful—less than 10%. Do you consider a less than 10% chance of ending Hamas a reasonable prospect of success?

In addition, Israel's intelligence capabilities are among the best in the world; they also have some of the most elite special forces and possess some of the most sophisticated precision-guided missiles in the world. An all-out war in Gaza wasn't necessary to go after those responsible for the October 7th terrorist attack or to make an attempt to eliminate Hamas. Destroying an immense amount of infrastructure, which has resulted in the loss of thousands of innocent civilian lives, was not a last resort for Israel, which just ad bellum also requires.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Medical director of Indonesian Hospital in Gaza reports strike on facility​

“We are now besieged by Israeli tanks, around the hospital,” said Marwan Sultan, director of the hospital, who said that at 2:30 a.m. shells crashed into a surgery department filled with patients, killing at least 10. The second floor of the hospital and the postoperative care department were hit, he said.

The Washington Post could not independently verify the account, and the Israel Defense Forces did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

U.N. officials condemn attacks on schools and civilians in Gaza​

The U.N. refugee agency for Palestinians (UNRWA) said in a statement Sunday that its schools in Gaza where thousands are sheltering are “constantly hit.” The agency said at least 24 people were reported killed in a strike at al-Fakhoura school, which housed 7,000 people at the time, while a strike at al-Falah school, housing 4,000 people, killed and injured “scores.”

 

[essentialsaltes]

Six maps explain the boundaries of Israel and Palestinian territories​

Some good infographicky maps and commentary starting from the end of WWI.

 

[Vanellus]

Pitiful argument and does not change the facts. I question I asked still stands.

BTW, I don't believe God has anointed Netanyahu a prophet to Israel.....not yet at least.......

You did not answer my question which was:
Do you think then that, if Netanyahu said that God had commanded him to wipe out all Gazans, that you would believe him i.e. that God had actually spoken thus to Netanyahu.
A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[Vanellus]

It should never have come to this. However, Hamas is entirely responsible for every casualty on both sides.

The Bible teaches that each person is responsible for their own actions

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad
2 Cor 5:10

 

[Vanellus]

They had not rejected Him when he commanded them to do so. That's the reason they followed his command. So, once more since you didn't bother to answer the question the first time: Did God command the Hebrews to do evil by killing everyone and everything (men, women, children, animals)? Try addressing the question this time.

By pushing the question away from what is happening in Gaza into what happened in OT times this becomes a question about OT events and so is not relevant to this thread.

 

[Vanellus]

It started WWII for us......no one complained about the methods used to end it.......

It's very hard to prove a negative although easy to state it
Hiroshima: Military Voices of Dissent | Origins

 

[Vanellus]

Of course they all went there and counted the bodies, right? I mean, who would be stupid enough to trust HAMAS' health ministry's word for something?......you know, that terrorist group who lies, rapes, murders men, women, children and infants. I mean, what purpose could they possibly be lying for? So yeah, I guess their word is good enough for supporters, sympathizers and propagandists......but not for the rest of us.

Only Israeli lives matter then - do you agree?

 

[Vanellus]

OK so you don't think Hamas dictates to the Ministry of Health, even when you see camera footage showing Hamas escorting hostages through the corridors of the hospital ?

A huge non sequitur

 

[Vanellus]

You can see for yourself how accurate the Palestinians are and how much they propagandize. The jihadists think any amount of dead are worth the price of success. The jihadists are willing to pay the price. For Israel, the idea is to minimize innocent deaths. To do nothing will cost more innocent lives, and Israel is not willing to pay that price. From their perspective the choice is a no-brainer. You can see what appeasement did when Joe paid billions to get some American hostages returned--Iranian backed Hamas kidnapped more Americans, and Israelis.

100% assumption 0% evidence

 

[Vanellus]

There has been much (too much?) toing and froing about numbers of casualties in Gaza:

How the dead are counted in Gaza

Health ministry officials say the death figures are recorded by medical professionals before being passed on to them and the figures only include people recorded dead in hospital. The figures do not distinguish between military and civilian deaths. And, because they do not take into account those who died at the scene of blasts whose bodies have not been found, or buried immediately, they may be an undercount, Gazan officials say.
That point was amplified by the Biden administration last week, when a senior US official said the death toll was likely to be greater than the numbers being reported.
"We think they're very high, frankly," Barbara Leaf, assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs, told a House Foreign Affairs Committee, "and it could be that they're even higher than are being cited." ...
A day after Mr Biden's dismissal of the numbers, the health ministry in Gaza provided more information, publishing an extensive list of names of all those who had been killed between 7 and 26 October. The list included more than 6,000 full names with their ages, sex and ID numbers ...
Healthcare workers like Dr Ghassan Abu-Sittah, a Médecins Sans Frontières plastic surgeon based in London who has been treating people at hospitals in Gaza City, are key to recording those figures.
He says the hospital morgue records deaths after confirming the identity of the dead person with their relatives.
The number of deaths registered so far, he believes, is far fewer than those that have actually occurred. "Most of the deaths happen at home," he says. "The ones we could not identify, we did not record."
However, once a body is found, it "has to be taken to the hospital to be recorded", says a spokesperson for the Palestinian Red Crescent