Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Vanellus]

There have been many statements here that the missile attack on the Baptist Hospital in Gaza was not as first stated an Israeli rocket but a misfired Hamas rocket as stated by the IDF. The BBC and others have been attacked for agreeing initially with the original view (though this was also stated in a now deleted tweet by an Israeli official).

I'm trying all the different versions in the hope that one or more is available to forum members.

This UK channel 4 item casts doubt on the Hamas misfired rocket theory:
Human rights investigators raise new questions on Gaza hospital explosion

Human rights investigators raise new questions on Gaza hospital explosion - The Global Herald

Along with the very real and violent war on the ground – there is also a fierce information war. Like Tuesday’s explosion at the Gaza hospital which Hamas says killed hundreds of people.

Israel says it was a misfired Islamic Jihad rocket, which they deny. Hamas says it was an Israeli airstrike, which they deny.

But tonight Forensic Architecture, Earshot and the Ramallah based NGO Al Haq have shared new information with Channel 4 News they say casts doubt on some aspects of Israel’s account.

 

[wing2000]

It's reported this morning that Israeli troops are inside the Al Shifa hospital complex and were searching buildings, interrogating staff, etc. There were also reports of Israeli tanks breaching the hospital perimeter overnight and soldiers engaging with gunman at the building entrance (but not inside the buidling).

If Hamas is not using the hospital for military purposes, why would Hamas fighters attempt to defend it

Israeli troops enter Gaza's Al Shifa hospital in culmination of siege

Israeli troops entered Gaza's biggest hospital on Wednesday and were searching its rooms and basement, witnesses said, culminating a days-long siege that caused global alarm over the fate of thousands of civilians trapped inside.

www.reuters.com

 

[essentialsaltes]

This UK channel 4 item casts doubt on the Hamas misfired rocket theory:

Well, channel 4 quotes human rights organizations of casting doubt on the Hamas misfired theory. Those articles are also shortly after the event. Any news since then after a fuller analysis by them?

As I said in the previous thread: It will be interesting to see whether any fragments like those in your picture [i.e. from an Israeli bomb] are recovered, and whether they are attributed to one type of munition or another.

Per Wikipedia: [Experts] also said that a conclusive determination was not possible without further evidence, including the remnants of the munition, which Hamas said did not exist. ... N.R. Jenzen-Jones, director of the Australia-based Armament Research Services, said that "[o]ne would expect remnants to be recoverable in all but the most extreme circumstances, and the available imagery of the hospital site suggests something ought to be identifiable on the ground[.]

While this and the statements of US and other intelligence agencies are not absolutely conclusive, I think it's justified to conclude it was a Hamas rocket. I realize Magic Missile is only a 1st level spell, but this absence of evidence when we expect there to be evidence looks suspicious.

 

[Vanellus]

Well, channel 4 quotes human rights organizations of casting doubt on the Hamas misfired theory. Those articles are also shortly after the event. Any news since then after a fuller analysis by them?

As I said in the previous thread: It will be interesting to see whether any fragments like those in your picture [i.e. from an Israeli bomb] are recovered, and whether they are attributed to one type of munition or another.

Per Wikipedia: [Experts] also said that a conclusive determination was not possible without further evidence, including the remnants of the munition, which Hamas said did not exist. ... N.R. Jenzen-Jones, director of the Australia-based Armament Research Services, said that "[o]ne would expect remnants to be recoverable in all but the most extreme circumstances, and the available imagery of the hospital site suggests something ought to be identifiable on the ground[.]

While this and the statements of US and other intelligence agencies are not absolutely conclusive, I think it's justified to conclude it was a Hamas rocket. I realize Magic Missile is only a 1st level spell, but this absence of evidence when we expect there to be evidence looks suspicious.

I believe foreign journalists etc are not allowed into Gaza unless embedded with the IDF where any footage or information they collect has to be approved by the IDF. Hence the analysis is confined to footage taken at the time - they don't have access to physical evidence. Even so, the sound made by the rocket that struck the hospital is very similar to the sound made by JTAM missiles - Hamas do not have JTAM missiles but the IDF do.

 

[Vanellus]

There has been a report that 179 people, including babies, have been buried in a mass grave at or close to the al Shifa hospital

al Shifa mass grave

 

[Abraxos]

Two Hamas people were overheard confessing that it was one of their own rockets. I guess you missed that one.

Yeah, I heard it. That convinced you huh?

Let's tally up some of the lies and deceptions Israel has made since October 7:

1,400 death toll lowered to 1,200
AT LEAST a third killed were Israeli military personnel, but the number may be much higher
MANY of the civilians were killed by the IOF firing on their own people
Apache helicopters gunned down Israelis fleeing the music festival
Apache helicopters rained hellfire missiles on Israeli cars causing mass fires and death and reloaded and did it again
NO beheaded babies
NO babies baked in ovens
NO 40 dead babies - 1 baby in the total number of dead, killed by IOF tank
NO children in cages
No tortured captives
No mutilating dead bodies
No pregnant women cut open
No Biden did not see pictures of dead babies
No October 7 was not “unprovoked”
No Pro-Palestine are not “pro-Hamas” rallies
No 8 yr old Emily Hand was not found dead
No “Global Day of Jihad”
No planned cyanide attacks
No all-female Israeli unit killing 100 Hamas
No Hamas coming through the US border
NO mass rape with broken pelvises - Israel could not produce any forensic proof of claims of sexual assault
No Israel did not found Shifa hospital
No Pro-Palestine are not “pro-Hamas” rallies
No 8 yr old Emily Hand was not found dead
No “Global Day of Jihad”
No planned cyanide attacks
No all-female Israeli unit killing 100 Hamas
No small blasts do not prove Israel did not bomb Baptist hospital
Exposed crisis actor Eli Beer
Fake baby crib photo
Fake blood splatter photo
Fake booby-trapped school bags
Fake chemical weapons on Hamas fighters
Fake Al Jazeera journalist Twitter account
Fake audio tapes released by IOF
Fake AI-generated images of Hamas leaders
Fake AI-generated image of burned baby
Fake photos of rape victims were actually female Kurdish fighters killed in action
Fake “official Al Qaeda material” on dead Hamas fighters
Fake antisemitism controversy over Greta’s toy octopus
Fake antisemitism allegations on Palestine campus activists
False grandstanding evacuation orders
False subtitles for Palestine protest chants
False subtitles of Palestinian woman preferring Jews over Palestinians
Fake Mein Kempf book in Gaza Children's living rooms
Falsely labelled a Gaza 4-year-old toddler martyred in an airstrike as a doll
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of West Bank raid survivor
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of Thai children in ghost costumes
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of Al-Azhar University students protesting
Yes, Israeli civilians said Hamas was kind to them during attacks and as captives

BUT OH - Israel would never lie about not bombing an Arab hospital!

Remember, those lies have fuelled a genocide.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yeah, I heard it. That convinced you huh?

Let's tally up some of the lies and deceptions Israel has made since October 7:

1,400 death toll lowered to 1,200
AT LEAST a third killed were Israeli military personnel, but the number may be much higher
MANY of the civilians were killed by the IOF firing on their own people
Apache helicopters gunned down Israelis fleeing the music festival
Apache helicopters rained hellfire missiles on Israeli cars causing mass fires and death and reloaded and did it again
NO beheaded babies
NO babies baked in ovens
NO 40 dead babies - 1 baby in the total number of dead, killed by IOF tank
NO children in cages
No tortured captives
No mutilating dead bodies
No pregnant women cut open
No Biden did not see pictures of dead babies
No October 7 was not “unprovoked”
No Pro-Palestine are not “pro-Hamas” rallies
No 8 yr old Emily Hand was not found dead
No “Global Day of Jihad”
No planned cyanide attacks
No all-female Israeli unit killing 100 Hamas
No Hamas coming through the US border
NO mass rape with broken pelvises - Israel could not produce any forensic proof of claims of sexual assault
No Israel did not found Shifa hospital
No Pro-Palestine are not “pro-Hamas” rallies
No 8 yr old Emily Hand was not found dead
No “Global Day of Jihad”
No planned cyanide attacks
No all-female Israeli unit killing 100 Hamas
No small blasts do not prove Israel did not bomb Baptist hospital
Exposed crisis actor Eli Beer
Fake baby crib photo
Fake blood splatter photo
Fake booby-trapped school bags
Fake chemical weapons on Hamas fighters
Fake Al Jazeera journalist Twitter account
Fake audio tapes released by IOF
Fake AI-generated images of Hamas leaders
Fake AI-generated image of burned baby
Fake photos of rape victims were actually female Kurdish fighters killed in action
Fake “official Al Qaeda material” on dead Hamas fighters
Fake antisemitism controversy over Greta’s toy octopus
Fake antisemitism allegations on Palestine campus activists
False grandstanding evacuation orders
False subtitles for Palestine protest chants
False subtitles of Palestinian woman preferring Jews over Palestinians
Fake Mein Kempf book in Gaza Children's living rooms
Falsely labelled a Gaza 4-year-old toddler martyred in an airstrike as a doll
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of West Bank raid survivor
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of Thai children in ghost costumes
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of Al-Azhar University students protesting
Yes, Israeli civilians said Hamas was kind to them during attacks and as captives

BUT OH - Israel would never lie about not bombing an Arab hospital!

Remember, those lies have fuelled a genocide.

Sounds like a lot of anti-Israeli propaganda to me. However if that's what you believe, good for you! I can't be bothered answering.

 

[Vambram]

foxnews.com"><script type="text/javascript" src="https://video.foxnews.com/v/embed.js?id=6341193615112&w=466&h=263"></script><noscript>Watch the latest video at <a href="Fox News - Breaking News Updates | Latest News Headlines | Photos & News Video">foxnews.com</a></noscript>

[[ I have not been able to properly share, or embed, the video footage from foxnews.com I do apologize.]]
The following is quoted from a FoxNews article released about an hour ago::

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) released video early Wednesday showing weapons found inside the al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza.
"IDF troops are continuing the precise and targeted operation against Hamas in the Shifa Hospital complex, in which the troops are conducting searches for Hamas terrorist infrastructure and assets," the IDF said in a statement.
"As the soldiers entered the hospital complex, they engaged with a number of terrorists and killed them," the statement added. "Following this, during searches in one of the departments of the hospital, the troops located a room with technological assets, along with military and combat equipment used by the Hamas terrorist organization."
The footage shows Israeli officers sorting through the firearms, ammunition and weapons reportedly left by Hamas fighters.
The IDF says that "technological assets and extensive intelligence information" found in the hospital are being reviewed by authorities.

 

[rjs330]

foxnews.com"><script type="text/javascript" src="https://video.foxnews.com/v/embed.js?id=6341193615112&w=466&h=263"></script><noscript>Watch the latest video at <a href="Fox News - Breaking News Updates | Latest News Headlines | Photos & News Video">foxnews.com</a></noscript>

[[ I have not been able to properly share, or embed, the video footage from foxnews.com I do apologize.]]
The following is quoted from a FoxNews article released about an hour ago::

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) released video early Wednesday showing weapons found inside the al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza.
"IDF troops are continuing the precise and targeted operation against Hamas in the Shifa Hospital complex, in which the troops are conducting searches for Hamas terrorist infrastructure and assets," the IDF said in a statement.
"As the soldiers entered the hospital complex, they engaged with a number of terrorists and killed them," the statement added. "Following this, during searches in one of the departments of the hospital, the troops located a room with technological assets, along with military and combat equipment used by the Hamas terrorist organization."
The footage shows Israeli officers sorting through the firearms, ammunition and weapons reportedly left by Hamas fighters.
The IDF says that "technological assets and extensive intelligence information" found in the hospital are being reviewed by authorities.

Just more lies by Israel. They probably painted the stuff or the video is fake.

 

[rjs330]

Yeah, I heard it. That convinced you huh?

Let's tally up some of the lies and deceptions Israel has made since October 7:

1,400 death toll lowered to 1,200
AT LEAST a third killed were Israeli military personnel, but the number may be much higher
MANY of the civilians were killed by the IOF firing on their own people
Apache helicopters gunned down Israelis fleeing the music festival
Apache helicopters rained hellfire missiles on Israeli cars causing mass fires and death and reloaded and did it again
NO beheaded babies
NO babies baked in ovens
NO 40 dead babies - 1 baby in the total number of dead, killed by IOF tank
NO children in cages
No tortured captives
No mutilating dead bodies
No pregnant women cut open
No Biden did not see pictures of dead babies
No October 7 was not “unprovoked”
No Pro-Palestine are not “pro-Hamas” rallies
No 8 yr old Emily Hand was not found dead
No “Global Day of Jihad”
No planned cyanide attacks
No all-female Israeli unit killing 100 Hamas
No Hamas coming through the US border
NO mass rape with broken pelvises - Israel could not produce any forensic proof of claims of sexual assault
No Israel did not found Shifa hospital
No Pro-Palestine are not “pro-Hamas” rallies
No 8 yr old Emily Hand was not found dead
No “Global Day of Jihad”
No planned cyanide attacks
No all-female Israeli unit killing 100 Hamas
No small blasts do not prove Israel did not bomb Baptist hospital
Exposed crisis actor Eli Beer
Fake baby crib photo
Fake blood splatter photo
Fake booby-trapped school bags
Fake chemical weapons on Hamas fighters
Fake Al Jazeera journalist Twitter account
Fake audio tapes released by IOF
Fake AI-generated images of Hamas leaders
Fake AI-generated image of burned baby
Fake photos of rape victims were actually female Kurdish fighters killed in action
Fake “official Al Qaeda material” on dead Hamas fighters
Fake antisemitism controversy over Greta’s toy octopus
Fake antisemitism allegations on Palestine campus activists
False grandstanding evacuation orders
False subtitles for Palestine protest chants
False subtitles of Palestinian woman preferring Jews over Palestinians
Fake Mein Kempf book in Gaza Children's living rooms
Falsely labelled a Gaza 4-year-old toddler martyred in an airstrike as a doll
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of West Bank raid survivor
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of Thai children in ghost costumes
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of Al-Azhar University students protesting
Yes, Israeli civilians said Hamas was kind to them during attacks and as captives

BUT OH - Israel would never lie about not bombing an Arab hospital!

Remember, those lies have fuelled a genocide.

Sounds a lot like terrorist propaganda.

Here's something for you. And since this debunks one of your assertions as being nothing more than terrorist propaganda we can dismiss everything else. It sounds like you are believing the real liars. Terrorists.

MSN

 

[Abraxos]

There have been many statements here that the missile attack on the Baptist Hospital in Gaza was not as first stated an Israeli rocket but a misfired Hamas rocket as stated by the IDF. The BBC and others have been attacked for agreeing initially with the original view (though this was also stated in a now deleted tweet by an Israeli official).

Huh. Israel has been bombing everything since October 7, but when the al-Ahli Baptist Hospital was bombed, oh, all of a sudden people assumed it was a misfire Hamas rocket? Colour me surprised!

A good example of Israel's denial is the NYT reporting that Israeli troops shelled the Al-Shifa Hospital a few days ago, which Israel had denied.
“Hours after the final blast, the Israeli military blamed unspecified Palestinian militants, saying a “misfired projectile” aimed at Israel Defense Forces troops deployed nearby had instead hit the hospital. But at least three of the projectiles that struck it appear to have been Israeli munitions, according to pictures of weapons fragments collected and verified by The New York Times and analyzed by experts.
In addition to the weapons remnants, an analysis of video footage shows that three of the projectiles were fired into the hospital from the north and south, contrary to the western trajectory indicated on a map released by the I.D.F., which it said was based on radar detections. A review of satellite images showed there were I.D.F. positions north and south of the hospital early Friday.”

Source: Link through paywall

A hospital is the bedrock and ultimate symbol of Humanity, and when they realised the global condemnation that came after it, they denied everything. New information is emerging all the time, so eventually, the truth comes out exposing Israel for crimes against humanity.
And don't believe me, just look at Palestine in the last 100 years.

 

[Vanellus]

A Kalashnikov, a laptop and a uniform hidden "secretly" behind an MRI machine does not add up to a huge Hamas central complex.

You do realise without independent witnesses this military kit could easily have been planted by the IDF. I don't know whether or not they did plant this stuff but it is perfectly possible. Ask yourself why there were no independent witnesses to confirm their claims.

 

[Vanellus]

A Maltese resolution for extended humanitarian pauses and safe corridors has been passed by the UN Security Council 29 days after a similar resolution was vetoed by the US (only). About 8000 Palestinians have died since then. Well done the US!

 

[Abraxos]

A Kalashnikov, a laptop and a uniform hidden "secretly" behind an MRI machine does not add up to a huge Hamas central complex.

You do realise without independent witnesses this military kit could easily have been planted by the IDF. I don't know whether or not they did plant this stuff but it is perfectly possible. Ask yourself why there were no independent witnesses to confirm their claims.

Oh, they did plant it. Those comical boxes with large English words on them were also used as props as "irrefutable proof" Hamas were conducting military operations.

Edit:

 

[civilwarbuff]

This is your post #389:

************************************************************************************************************************************************************

NM, the video explains it. The big unanswered question is "Who were these guards guarding?" We can make some good (probably very accurate) assumptions especially since the calendar starts out on 10/7.
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************

You have replied to your own post #388 - that is like talking to yourself Why didn't you add to your post #388 as that was your reply to Abraxos?

Uhhhhh, because I re-watched the vid and caught what the soldier was saying and didn't need Abraxos to reply?.......which he hasn't. Maybe he caught on to what I was saying......sorry you didn't......

 

[civilwarbuff]

Remember the last one you brought up:
Oh look there's a hole in the ground just outside the entrance to the Qatari hospital so it must be an entrance to a Hamas tunnel mustn't it. It couldn't possibly be a hatch to an underground water cistern could it!

I don't remember making a comment like that so pls reference it for me.
But with average annual rainfall of 7.29"/yr a cistern would be pretty useless there since it depends on the collection of rainwater to sustain it.

Climate & Weather Averages in Gaza, Gaza Strip, Palestine

Climate data and weather averages in Gaza

www.timeanddate.com

My understanding is that wells around there tend to be very brackish.
"Water from wells is being accessed to try to ease some of the burden, but it has a relatively high salt content."

Lack of clean drinking water for 95% of people in Gaza threatens health crisis

Polluted water supplies and salty groundwater are making people ill, with UN warning of threat of child deaths from dehydration

www.theguardian.com

 

[wing2000]

All - I think everyone needs to take a breath and lower the temperature in this thread. There's a lot of information flying around claiming x information based on x youtube video or this or that source. The fact is, almost none of this information can be verified by a 3rd party in a war zone.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Yeah, I heard it. That convinced you huh?

Let's tally up some of the lies and deceptions Israel has made since October 7:

1,400 death toll lowered to 1,200
AT LEAST a third killed were Israeli military personnel, but the number may be much higher
MANY of the civilians were killed by the IOF firing on their own people
Apache helicopters gunned down Israelis fleeing the music festival
Apache helicopters rained hellfire missiles on Israeli cars causing mass fires and death and reloaded and did it again
NO beheaded babies
NO babies baked in ovens
NO 40 dead babies - 1 baby in the total number of dead, killed by IOF tank
NO children in cages
No tortured captives
No mutilating dead bodies
No pregnant women cut open
No Biden did not see pictures of dead babies
No October 7 was not “unprovoked”
No Pro-Palestine are not “pro-Hamas” rallies
No 8 yr old Emily Hand was not found dead
No “Global Day of Jihad”
No planned cyanide attacks
No all-female Israeli unit killing 100 Hamas
No Hamas coming through the US border
NO mass rape with broken pelvises - Israel could not produce any forensic proof of claims of sexual assault
No Israel did not found Shifa hospital
No Pro-Palestine are not “pro-Hamas” rallies
No 8 yr old Emily Hand was not found dead
No “Global Day of Jihad”
No planned cyanide attacks
No all-female Israeli unit killing 100 Hamas
No small blasts do not prove Israel did not bomb Baptist hospital
Exposed crisis actor Eli Beer
Fake baby crib photo
Fake blood splatter photo
Fake booby-trapped school bags
Fake chemical weapons on Hamas fighters
Fake Al Jazeera journalist Twitter account
Fake audio tapes released by IOF
Fake AI-generated images of Hamas leaders
Fake AI-generated image of burned baby
Fake photos of rape victims were actually female Kurdish fighters killed in action
Fake “official Al Qaeda material” on dead Hamas fighters
Fake antisemitism controversy over Greta’s toy octopus
Fake antisemitism allegations on Palestine campus activists
False grandstanding evacuation orders
False subtitles for Palestine protest chants
False subtitles of Palestinian woman preferring Jews over Palestinians
Fake Mein Kempf book in Gaza Children's living rooms
Falsely labelled a Gaza 4-year-old toddler martyred in an airstrike as a doll
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of West Bank raid survivor
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of Thai children in ghost costumes
False crisis actor accusation by using old pictures of Al-Azhar University students protesting
Yes, Israeli civilians said Hamas was kind to them during attacks and as captives

BUT OH - Israel would never lie about not bombing an Arab hospital!

Remember, those lies have fuelled a genocide.

I am sure you have sources for all these claims, right?........I think many here would love to see them.......linked, of course, to your listed claims.....not that I don't......ehhhh......believe your claims or anything......

 

[civilwarbuff]

Sounds a lot like terrorist propaganda.

Does sound like it came off a propaganda sheet.

 

[Vanellus]

I don't remember making a comment like that so pls reference it for me.
But with average annual rainfall of 7.29"/yr a cistern would be pretty useless there since it depends on the collection of rainwater to sustain it.

Climate & Weather Averages in Gaza, Gaza Strip, Palestine

Climate data and weather averages in Gaza

www.timeanddate.com

My understanding is that wells around there tend to be very brackish.
"Water from wells is being accessed to try to ease some of the burden, but it has a relatively high salt content."

Lack of clean drinking water for 95% of people in Gaza threatens health crisis

Polluted water supplies and salty groundwater are making people ill, with UN warning of threat of child deaths from dehydration

www.theguardian.com

Well when they have power they have desalination plants and water tankers I would think.

The hole in the ground was in an IDF video which was the top item on their Youtube page and I linked a video in post #333 that debunked it.