Why is earth's AGE important to you?

[Derf]

The second death. The first death is the death of the body. The second death is the death of the person who occupied it.

Perhaps. But the death of the body seemed to be the death of the person in Genesis 3.
Genesis 3:19 KJV — In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art (the person is defined as the body, or ar least as the body with something added), and unto dust shalt thou return (the person goes back to the substance when the something-added is removed).

If the returning to dust is the whole of God's punishment for Adam's sin, then the hope of resurrection would restore the person to life, that is, the body would once again have that something-added.

That something-added is described in Gen 2
Genesis 2:7 KJV — And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The soul is the person (I think you would agree). But the soul is here defined as made up of 2 parts...the body and the breath of life. Or at least both of those are necessary for a living soul. When the breath of life is removed, the person is no longer living (death), and the body is what it was before it became a living soul: dust.

An analogy. A human body is like a drive by wire car. The car is the body, and the built in computer is the brain. But a thing separate from the car, the driver/person, is the brain. When a car wears out and is sent to the junk yard, the driver continues on, usually buying another car. But beyond the analogy, the person returns to the "unseen realm", where they await either the white throne or Bema seat judgement, depending on their status. Those at the white throne are thrown into the fire where they are burned up like so many weeds (Mat 13:40).

Except that doesn't account for the make-up of the person as described above.

This is all just my opinion, of course.

Yeah, I get that. Mine too.

 

[Ephesians321]

Your article quotes Newton of all people. How is that to be taken seriously on a Christian forum?

He is only cited because he genuinely, wisely, and correctly interpreted both the OT and NT Day of the Lord passages that none of them were describing the end of history and the end of the cosmos itself but were hyperbolic and metamorphic descriptions of the national judgment upon earthly kingdoms and nations. That sun, moon, stars and earth were never meant to be read literally but only figuratively. Because if these passages were meant to read literally then God has destroyed the whole Earth many times over yet we are still here. Christ comes with the Glory of the Father (in the same manner) in judgment and how did the Father in his Glory come in judgment over Israel and her enemies in the Old Testament?

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Perhaps. But the death of the body seemed to be the death of the person in Genesis 3.
Genesis 3:19 KJV — In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art (the person is defined as the body, or ar least as the body with something added), and unto dust shalt thou return (the person goes back to the substance when the something-added is removed).

If the returning to dust is the whole of God's punishment for Adam's sin, then the hope of resurrection would restore the person to life, that is, the body would once again have that something-added.

That something-added is described in Gen 2
Genesis 2:7 KJV — And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The soul is the person (I think you would agree). But the soul is here defined as made up of 2 parts...the body and the breath of life. Or at least both of those are necessary for a living soul. When the breath of life is removed, the person is no longer living (death), and the body is what it was before it became a living soul: dust.


Except that doesn't account for the make-up of the person as described above.

Yeah, I get that. Mine too.

Just a clarification: I modified this after you copied the text to what I actually meant to post: "...the driver/person, is the brain..." should have said, "...the driver/person, is the brain...". The whole point of that sentence was to call out, in my analogy, the difference between the brain and the mind.

Regarding Genesis, I see it as poetry based on the amount of knowledge God was willing to dole out to those he inspired to write. And I see the returning to dust to be the type of punishment that we more accurately describe as a "consequence". i.e. "You had eternal life. You violated his one rule. You no longer have eternal life. You will die."

I'm just musing here, but what if Adam and Eve's bodies were destined to "die" anyway, but their spirit was destined to live on in some other form, even possibly reincarnation*, but eating of the tree of life kept that body alive indefinitely, barring tragic accident like falling off a cliff or something? I'll have to see if there is scripture that precludes that possibility.

*I'm not making a case for Reincarnation. I'm just wondering if there may have been several ways they could have been eternal (barring eating the forbidden fruit) that made room for their bodies dying.

 

[Ephesians321]

He is only cited because he genuinely, wisely, and correctly interpreted both the OT and NT Day of the Lord passages that none of them were describing the end of history and the end of the cosmos itself but were hyperbolic and metamorphic descriptions of the national judgment upon earthly kingdoms and nations. That sun, moon, stars and earth were never meant to be read literally but only figuratively. Because if these passages were meant to read literally then God has destroyed the whole Earth many times over yet we are still here. Christ comes with the Glory of the Father (in the same manner) in judgment and how did the Father in his Glory come in judgment over Israel and her enemies in the Old Testament?

I feel compelled to repost this below with scripture.

For the Son of Man will come IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”​

Matthew 16:27-28

But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter YOU will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Matthew 26:63-64

And now, O Father, glorify me together with Yourself, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
John 17:5

...the Son can do nothing of himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, THE SON ALSO DOES IN LIKE MANNER. For the Father judges no one, but has COMMITTED ALL JUDGMENT TO THE SON.
John 5:19,22

...the Kingdom of God does not come with observation.
Luke 17:20

...my Kingdom is not of this world.
John 18:36

...flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 15:50


THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS HAPPENED MANY TIMES

The “day of the Lord” was an oft repeated occurrence in the Old Testament and never involved a physical appearance of Yahweh. However, what was visible was the utter devastation left by His judgment. With the New Testament anticipation of Jesus’ “Day of the Lord” we are told he would come in the “glory of the Father” (Lk. 9:26). Jesus came invisibly in judgment just as his Father had, but that which was visible was the utter ruin of Israel, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the heart of the Jewish State. These events sealed the fulfillment of all prophecy and ushered in the fullness of the spiritual Kingdom of God. Please note the use of Hebraic apocalyptic hyperbolic language through-out and cloud reference in #2.

1. Yahweh used the Assyrians to Defeat Israel, 721 BC.

Day of the LORD: “Woe to you that desire the day of the LORD!..[It] is darkness and not light…” Amos 5:18f

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “For behold the LORD is coming forth out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains will be molten under him and the valleys will be cleft like wax before the fire …” Micah 1:3-4

2. Yahweh used Sargon of Assyria to Defeat Egypt, circa 712 BC.

Day of the LORD: “Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and shall come to Egypt…” Isaiah 19:1

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “…the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt in its midst.” Is. 19:1 (see ch. 19-20)

3. Yahweh used Nebuchadnezzar to Defeat Pharaoh at Carchemish, 605 BC.

Day of the LORD: “…Day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…” Jer. 46:10

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “For they shall march with an army, and come against her with axes, as wood cutters. They shall cut down her forest, says Yahweh, though it can't be searched; because they are more than the locusts, and are innumerable.” Jer. 46:22-23

4. Yahweh used the Babylonians to Defeat Jerusalem, 586 BC.

Day of the LORD: “For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation.” Jer. 4:27

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “…the heavens had no light, the mountains were quaking and all the hills moved back and forth…there was no man, and all the birds of the sky had fled…the earth shall mourn and the heavens above be black…" Jer. 4:23-29

5. Yahweh used the Babylonians to Defeat Edom, 583 BC.

Day of the LORD: “For the LORD has a day of vengeance…” Is. 34:8

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “All the host of sky shall be dissolved, and the sky shall roll up like a scroll. All their hosts shall fall…the Lord has a sword. It is sated with blood, it is gorged with fat….Its streams will be turned into pitch, its dust into sulfur, and its land will become burning pitch.” Isaiah 34:4,5,9

6. Yahweh used the Medes to Defeat Babylon, 539 BC.

Day of the LORD: “Behold the day the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger to make the earth a desolation." Isaiah 13:9

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “…The stars of the sky and its constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine. I will make people more rare than fine gold… Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place in the wrath of Yahweh of Armies, and in the day of his fierce anger…” Isaiah 13:10-13

7. The Son of Man used the Romans to Defeat Israel AD 67-70.

Day of the LORD: “The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night…you* are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief.” I These. 5:2-4. (see also I Cor. 1:8)

Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, … they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory….” Matt. 24:29f

* Paul was writing to first century believers (circa AD 52) some of whom would witness this event.

Note: Day of the Lord=Coming of the Lord=Coming of the Son of Man= coming in clouds=the day of Christ=the second coming=that day

 

[Derf]

Just a clarification: I modified this after you copied the text to what I actually meant to post: "...the driver/person, is the brain..." should have said, "...the driver/person, is the brain...". The whole point of that sentence was to call out, in my analogy, the difference between the brain and the mind.

Regarding Genesis, I see it as poetry based on the amount of knowledge God was willing to dole out to those he inspired to write.

Have you seen any of those attempts to determine whether the Genesis account of creation was intended as poetry or narrative? ICR did one some years ago. The Biblical Hebrew Creation Account: New Numbers Tell the Story

And I see the returning to dust to be the type of punishment that we more accurately describe as a "consequence". i.e. "You had eternal life. You violated his one rule. You no longer have eternal life. You will die."

I would agree. But it is given as a consequence of something that wouldn't normally be considered to have that kind of consequence, i.e., eating of a tree whose fruit was [Gen 3:6 KJV]... good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise,
All of which are good consequences. So it doesn't seem like a "natural" consequence in a garden full of things that were "good for food and pleasant to the eyes".

I'm just musing here, but what if Adam and Eve's bodies were destined to "die" anyway, but their spirit was destined to live on in some other form, even possibly reincarnation*, but eating of the tree of life kept that body alive indefinitely, barring tragic accident like falling off a cliff or something?

I'm not sure why the tree might not also heal such tragic accidents, since in Revelation it is associated with healing (not the fruit, but the leaves).
[Rev 22:2 KJV] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
Certainly the Revelation passage is more poetic in nature.

But going to another poetic section, the tragic part might have been avoided another way:
[Psa 91:10 KJV] There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
[Psa 91:11 KJV] For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
[Psa 91:12 KJV] They shall bear thee up in [their] hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

I'll have to see if there is scripture that precludes that possibility.

*I'm not making a case for Reincarnation. I'm just wondering if there may have been several ways they could have been eternal (barring eating the forbidden fruit) that made room for their bodies dying.

I think this comes from an idea that the physical creation is less desirable than the spiritual. I'm thinking such is a false dichotomy, or at least a distinction that isn't available to us, if man is really dust with breath of life added.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Have you seen any of those attempts to determine whether the Genesis account of creation was intended as poetry or narrative? ICR did one some years ago. The Biblical Hebrew Creation Account: New Numbers Tell the Story

Just dang! I still got it wrong. Just a clarification: I modified this after you copied the text to what I actually meant to post: "...the driver/person, is the brain..." should have said, "...the driver/person, is the mind...".

I'm sure you already figured it out, but just wanted to be sure...

Regarding your comment, No, I had not read that but I just did. At the end I really just saw a lot of obfuscation. But that's just me. I don't see it as "either,or". I see it as old writings written in old styles. And I do believe God talked to man way before the Pentateuch was ever penned. Even if one sees it as six days, the question remains, was their no planet before the six days began, or was the modern age fashioned in the six days on the surface of an existing earth?

I think the age of man is probably six thousand years old, but I suspect there were many ages before. And these ages included dinosaurs, Neanderthals, etc. But the age of man is about 6,000 years.

This "rabbit hole" really gets into it: Is this translation of Genesis 1:1 accurate?

Heiser does a good job here too:

 

[Reasonably Sane]

But going to another poetic section, the tragic part might have been avoided another way:
[Psa 91:10 KJV] There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
[Psa 91:11 KJV] For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
[Psa 91:12 KJV] They shall bear thee up in [their] hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

I think this comes from an idea that the physical creation is less desirable than the spiritual. I'm thinking such is a false dichotomy, or at least a distinction that isn't available to us, if man is really dust with breath of life added.

Psalm 91 caused a crisis in faith for a friend of mine just a couple of weeks ago. The reason: He said that literally thinking, it is a big lie. Regarding physical vs spiritual, I don't make that particular distinction, though others might. We were created to be spiritual beings in physical bodies to be caretakers of this particular planet within His creation. At least that is how I see it. It's not that it's less desirable. Rather, it's that it is more fragile.

 

[Derf]

Just dang! I still got it wrong. Just a clarification: I modified this after you copied the text to what I actually meant to post: "...the driver/person, is the brain..." should have said, "...the driver/person, is the mind...".

I'm sure you already figured it out, but just wanted to be sure...

I think so, but maybe just in my brain. Not sure in my mind.

Regarding your comment, No, I had not read that but I just did. At the end I really just saw a lot of obfuscation. But that's just me. I don't see it as "either,or". I see it as old writings written in old styles. And I do believe God talked to man way before the Pentateuch was ever penned. Even if one sees it as six days, the question remains, was their no planet before the six days began, or was the modern age fashioned in the six days on the surface of an existing earth?

I tend to fall back to Exodus 20:11 [Exo 20:11 KJV] For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The heaven ("heavens" plural in the Hebrew) seems to include all of the stars, too, since it referred back to the Genesis account that was also attributed to Moses.

As far as I know, the only reasons to appeal to other ages is the disconnect with the long-extinct animals (dinosaurs being the most prominent example), starlight travel time, and the radiometric dating, with the last two possibly related, and the first being slowly eroded (with lazarus-species and soft-tissue discoveries in the fossils of those extinct animals)

I think the age of man is probably six thousand years old, but I suspect there were many ages before. And these ages included dinosaurs, Neanderthals, etc. But the age of man is about 6,000 years.

I'm not sure Neanderthals can be counted as something unique from "man".

 

[Derf]

Psalm 91 caused a crisis in faith for a friend of mine just a couple of weeks ago. The reason: He said that literally thinking, it is a big lie.

Interesting. Sometimes crises in faith cause us to question where our faith really lies. Pray for him.

I'm just suggesting that the spirit of Ps 91 might have been active in full force before the fall, whereas now we have these aging and dying bodies that cause us to fret and worry about losing our life. At some point, our bodies will be restored to what it was like in the Garden, or maybe better, and the angels might again be able to keep us from falling to our hurt or death.

Regarding physical vs spiritual, I don't make that particular distinction, though others might. We were created to be spiritual beings in physical bodies to be caretakers of this particular planet within His creation. At least that is how I see it. It's not that it's less desirable. Rather, it's that it is more fragile.

I'm not sure what "it" is that is more or less fragile/desirable in your post. But it seems that death is less desirable than life, whatever we might make death out to be. And if death is really a spiritual existence, and it is less desirable than our physical existence (which we know because of the resurrection of our bodies, like that of Jesus Christ's), then we shouldn't be hoping for the disembodied spirit phase of our existence, if that is what it is. Paul seemed to put much emphasis on the hope of our resurrection, and told us that we should not be desiring to be absent from the body.
[2Co 5:1 KJV] For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[2Co 5:2 KJV] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
[2Co 5:3 KJV] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
[2Co 5:4 KJV] For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The unclothed state is not to be desired. I think that's death (physical, where there's nothing really going on with you when you're in that state), but if I'm wrong, then it would equally apply to the bodiless existence prior to resurrection, according to that passage.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Interesting. Sometimes crises in faith cause us to question where our faith really lies. Pray for him.

I'm just suggesting that the spirit of Ps 91 might have been active in full force before the fall, whereas now we have these aging and dying bodies that cause us to fret and worry about losing our life. At some point, our bodies will be restored to what it was like in the Garden, or maybe better, and the angels might again be able to keep us from falling to our hurt or death.

I'm not sure what "it" is that is more or less fragile/desirable in your post. But it seems that death is less desirable than life, whatever we might make death out to be. And if death is really a spiritual existence, and it is less desirable than our physical existence (which we know because of the resurrection of our bodies, like that of Jesus Christ's), then we shouldn't be hoping for the disembodied spirit phase of our existence, if that is what it is. Paul seemed to put much emphasis on the hope of our resurrection, and told us that we should not be desiring to be absent from the body.
[2Co 5:1 KJV] For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[2Co 5:2 KJV] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
[2Co 5:3 KJV] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
[2Co 5:4 KJV] For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The unclothed state is not to be desired. I think that's death (physical, where there's nothing really going on with you when you're in that state), but if I'm wrong, then it would equally apply to the bodiless existence prior to resurrection, according to that passage.

Actually, we talked it through. It's along the lines of being careful to not take the bible too literally. He's actually been a Christian a lot longer than me. I'm about 70 and he's 74. It's just that when you see all the problems Christians face in their lifetime and then read Psalm 91, you have to ask yourself, "what's going on here?" And the answer itself can be, at first, troubling, and then healing.

I'm not talking about death being less desirable than life. In a way, you could think of that very old Star Trek episode where these virtually divine beings without any real form wanted to have bodies so they could feel, see, taste, hear, etc. That can be a very desirable state, IMO. Especially in the presence of your creator.

It's like the day I was bicycle commuting about 20 years ago up my nemesis hill on the route. It was about 3/4 of a mile, perfectly straight, and fairly steep. I hated that hill. One day, as I approached it I said, Wait! I'm in this body to feel the things that made its creation "good". I proceded to stand up in the saddle and power my way up. The whole time, as my muscles burned, YELLING, "I'm alive! I feel my muscles burning and it is GOOD!" When I got to the top I was doing almost 30 mph!

It was actually a life changing event for me.

BTW, I compare the death of the body as we experience it to be similar to what happened to me when I was knocked out during surgery. It was not a sleep state. Rather, I was completely unaware of the passage of time. I was out for 12 hours while they froze my heart to get it to stop and put in a new aortic valve and part of the artery and sewed me back up. Yet as far as I was concerned, the anesthetist told me to take a deep breath before surgery, then another, and halfway through the second breath I was waking up in the recovery room. i.e. the passage from the death of the body and the awakening at the white throne or Bema seat or whatever will be an instantaneous event as far as we're concerned. Even if one died thousands of years ago.

 

[Ephesians321]

Interesting. Sometimes crises in faith cause us to question where our faith really lies. Pray for him.

I'm just suggesting that the spirit of Ps 91 might have been active in full force before the fall, whereas now we have these aging and dying bodies that cause us to fret and worry about losing our life. At some point, our bodies will be restored to what it was like in the Garden, or maybe better, and the angels might again be able to keep us from falling to our hurt or death.

I'm not sure what "it" is that is more or less fragile/desirable in your post. But it seems that death is less desirable than life, whatever we might make death out to be. And if death is really a spiritual existence, and it is less desirable than our physical existence (which we know because of the resurrection of our bodies, like that of Jesus Christ's), then we shouldn't be hoping for the disembodied spirit phase of our existence, if that is what it is. Paul seemed to put much emphasis on the hope of our resurrection, and told us that we should not be desiring to be absent from the body.
[2Co 5:1 KJV] For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[2Co 5:2 KJV] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
[2Co 5:3 KJV] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
[2Co 5:4 KJV] For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The unclothed state is not to be desired. I think that's death (physical, where there's nothing really going on with you when you're in that state), but if I'm wrong, then it would equally apply to the bodiless existence prior to resurrection, according to that passage.

You totally distorted Paul's message.

[2Co 5:1 KJV] For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, WE HAVE A BUILDING OF GOD, AN HOUSE NOT MADE WITH HANDS, ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS.
[2Co 5:2 KJV] For in this we groan, EARNESTLY DESIRING TO BE CLOTHED UPON WITH OUR HOUSE WHICH IS IN HEAVEN:
[2Co 5:3 KJV] IF SO BE THAT BEING CLOTHED WE SHALL NOT BE FOUND NAKED.
[2Co 5:4 KJV] For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, BUT CLOTHED UPON, THAT MORTALITY MIGHT BE SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE.

He said we are clothed upon in Heaven in our spiritual bodies but naked here on earth while in our in mortal bodies.

 

[Derf]

You totally distorted Paul's message.

[2Co 5:1 KJV] For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, WE HAVE A BUILDING OF GOD, AN HOUSE NOT MADE WITH HANDS, ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS.
[2Co 5:2 KJV] For in this we groan, EARNESTLY DESIRING TO BE CLOTHED UPON WITH OUR HOUSE WHICH IS IN HEAVEN:
[2Co 5:3 KJV] IF SO BE THAT BEING CLOTHED WE SHALL NOT BE FOUND NAKED.
[2Co 5:4 KJV] For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, BUT CLOTHED UPON, THAT MORTALITY MIGHT BE SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE.

He said we are clothed upon in Heaven in our spiritual bodies but naked here on earth while in our in mortal bodies.

I think you'll find that Paul refers to 3 distinct states.
1. Clothed with a mortal body
2. Naked
3. Clothed with an immortal body.

 

[didactics]

You totally distorted Paul's message.

[2Co 5:1 KJV] For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, WE HAVE A BUILDING OF GOD, AN HOUSE NOT MADE WITH HANDS, ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS.
[2Co 5:2 KJV] For in this we groan, EARNESTLY DESIRING TO BE CLOTHED UPON WITH OUR HOUSE WHICH IS IN HEAVEN:
[2Co 5:3 KJV] IF SO BE THAT BEING CLOTHED WE SHALL NOT BE FOUND NAKED.
[2Co 5:4 KJV] For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, BUT CLOTHED UPON, THAT MORTALITY MIGHT BE SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE.

He said we are clothed upon in Heaven in our spiritual bodies but naked here on earth while in our in mortal bodies.

My understanding is that "naked" means without a body. What "we groan" is the (quote)frustration at the limitations of this present life, with its sin, weakness, and corruption(end quote)
Reformation Study Bible

This is not an easy passage to understand and I'll be the first to admit that. But what does it mean that being in heaven we will not be unclothed as opposed to going to hell? When I think "clothed" I think comforted. It is a distressing thought to be absent from the body. What makes the experience of being absent from the body a little more bearable is knowing that our sins are taken care of. But what is the "mortality...swallowed up of life"? Now if I were to guess your answer (knowing that you think the resurrection is only spiritual) you would say heaven-- heaven is swallowing up mortality. You could also look at that passage in verse 4 and see it that what's really being desired in this life is not to die and go to heaven, but that we would be "clothed upon". More likely, we desire that we don't have to go through death at all. And if that is what's in view, then I think it goes as follows-- that we have our sin problem taken care of transactionally. Heaven swallows up mortality of life, not by death. As heaven is a place of no sin, the spiritual bodies will be physical with no sin.

 

[Ephesians321]

My understanding is that "naked" means without a body. What "we groan" is the (quote)frustration at the limitations of this present life, with its sin, weakness, and corruption(end quote)
Reformation Study Bible

This is not an easy passage to understand and I'll be the first to admit that. But what does it mean that being in heaven we will not be unclothed as opposed to going to hell? When I think "clothed" I think comforted. It is a distressing thought to be absent from the body. What makes the experience of being absent from the body a little more bearable is knowing that our sins are taken care of. But what is the "mortality...swallowed up of life"? Now if I were to guess your answer (knowing that you think the resurrection is only spiritual) you would say heaven-- heaven is swallowing up mortality. You could also look at that passage in verse 4 and see it that what's really being desired in this life is not to die and go to heaven, but that we would be "clothed upon". More likely, we desire that we don't have to go through death at all. And if that is what's in view, then I think it goes as follows-- that we have our sin problem taken care of transactionally. Heaven swallows up mortality of life, not by death. As heaven is a place of no sin, the spiritual bodies will be physical with no sin.

No, this is how I believe it should be interpreted, because the spirit can not be destroyed, flesh and blood can not inherit heaven!!! Why would we groan, earnestly desiring, found naked, be burdened and unclothed in our spiritual bodies???

For we know that if our earthly house [flesh & blood], this tent [flesh & blood], is destroyed [flesh & blood], we have a building from God [spiritual], a house not made with hands [spiritual], eternal in the heavens[spiritual]. 2 For in this we groan [flesh & blood], earnestly desiring to be clothed [spiritual] with our habitation [spiritual] which is from heaven [spiritual], 3 if indeed, having been clothed [spiritual], we shall not be found naked [flesh & blood]. 4 For we who are in this tent [flesh & blood] groan, being burdened [flesh & blood], not because we want to be unclothed [flesh & blood], but further clothed [spiritual], that mortality [flesh & blood] may be swallowed up by life [spiritual].

2 Corinthians 5:1-5 (NKJV)

 

[didactics]

No, this is how I believe it should be interpreted, because the spirit can not be destroyed, flesh and blood can not inherit heaven!!! Why would we groan, earnestly desiring, found naked, be burdened and unclothed in our spiritual bodies???

For we know that if our earthly house [flesh & blood], this tent [flesh & blood], is destroyed [flesh & blood], we have a building from God [spiritual], a house not made with hands [spiritual], eternal in the heavens[spiritual]. 2 For in this we groan [flesh & blood], earnestly desiring to be clothed [spiritual] with our habitation [spiritual] which is from heaven [spiritual], 3 if indeed, having been clothed [spiritual], we shall not be found naked [flesh & blood]. 4 For we who are in this tent [flesh & blood] groan, being burdened [flesh & blood], not because we want to be unclothed [flesh & blood], but further clothed [spiritual], that mortality [flesh & blood] may be swallowed up by life [spiritual].

2 Corinthians 5:1-5 (NKJV)

You're not thinking big enough. When Christ was raised from the dead [flesh & blood] was he not also proved to be the man without sin [spiritual]? Now was he always without sin? of course. Was he always divine even when he was in the body? yes.

Now bear with now. Because you say that the first fruits of the resurrection of Christ is when he ascended to heaven. But what makes Jesus' resurrection unique compared to others in Bible history who were raised from the dead? It was at Christ's death on the cross that saints were raised from the dead (Mt 27:53). Some have suggested that these saints in particular were recently deceased and they ascended with Christ into heaven. If as you say what Adam and Eve lost in the garden is the opportunity to be assumed into heaven and skip death (just as Enoch and Elijah skipped death) and that's all the resurrection means, why aren't saints today skipping death and ascending to heaven?

Well never mind, your answer will probably be that it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment (Heb 9:27)

Let me put it this way. There must be a general judgment at the end of the world. It can't simply be that people live and die, live and die, and so on, and it happens that way forever and judgment only refers to be people being judged one at a time, each one after another when it's time to die. It must be that there will be a final judgment with the damned all sentenced at once and the saints together judged according to their works. Just as the kingdom of God is not just something that resides in our little hearts but is corporal- the bride, the church, the...dare I say the body (Eph 1:23).

Jesus was the most human there ever was for he was without sin. What he modeled for us is what it looks like to be human in the truest sense. His rising from the dead and being sinless, the head of the church, and taking responsibility for the sins he did not commit- so he maintains, not guilty. And so will his saints at the end of the world be raised a new body, without sin [flesh & blood], because the sentence has been taken off them they will be flesh & blood and spiritual, free from the restraints of such a pointless dichotomy (flesh & blood or spiritual?)!

 

[Derf]

Actually, we talked it through. It's along the lines of being careful to not take the bible too literally. He's actually been a Christian a lot longer than me. I'm about 70 and he's 74. It's just that when you see all the problems Christians face in their lifetime and then read Psalm 91, you have to ask yourself, "what's going on here?" And the answer itself can be, at first, troubling, and then healing.

I'm not talking about death being less desirable than life. In a way, you could think of that very old Star Trek episode where these virtually divine beings without any real form wanted to have bodies so they could feel, see, taste, hear, etc. That can be a very desirable state, IMO. Especially in the presence of your creator.

Meaning, I think, that being a disembodied spirit is the undesirable state, right? If so, then yes. I started down this road of thinking through biblical passages dealing with death a few years ago. Ive noticed since then how often at funerals people talk about how great it is for the deceased. But I'm wondering if it's more like what you describe below--that they are in a non-conscious state, and the next thing they will experience is the resurrection, followed by judgment.

It's like the day I was bicycle commuting about 20 years ago up my nemesis hill on the route. It was about 3/4 of a mile, perfectly straight, and fairly steep. I hated that hill. One day, as I approached it I said, Wait! I'm in this body to feel the things that made its creation "good". I proceded to stand up in the saddle and power my way up. The whole time, as my muscles burned, YELLING, "I'm alive! I feel my muscles burning and it is GOOD!" When I got to the top I was doing almost 30 mph!

It was actually a life changing event for me.

BTW, I compare the death of the body as we experience it to be similar to what happened to me when I was knocked out during surgery. It was not a sleep state. Rather, I was completely unaware of the passage of time. I was out for 12 hours while they froze my heart to get it to stop and put in a new aortic valve and part of the artery and sewed me back up. Yet as far as I was concerned, the anesthetist told me to take a deep breath before surgery, then another, and halfway through the second breath I was waking up in the recovery room. i.e. the passage from the death of the body and the awakening at the white throne or Bema seat or whatever will be an instantaneous event as far as we're concerned. Even if one died thousands of years ago.

Sounds reasonable. In which case, there's no activity, mental, physical, or spiritual, without the body. That simplifies the definition of death considerably, back to "returning to dust". I find it odd that Christians, when talking about death, almost always start by giving an alternate definition of the word that doesn't apply in any other situation, something like this: "Remember, 'death' means 'separation'."

 

[Derf]

As He Pointed Out To His Own Disciples: see, here I Am, resurrected, not a ghost, as ghosts do not have flesh and bone as you see I have.
Very clearly not flesh and blood.

It's an interesting distinction. I'm not sure if that was Jesus' point.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Meaning, I think, that being a disembodied spirit is the undesirable state, right? If so, then yes. I started down this road of thinking through biblical passages dealing with death a few years ago. Ive noticed since then how often at funerals people talk about how great it is for the deceased. But I'm wondering if it's more like what you describe below--that they are in a non-conscious state, and the next thing they will experience is the resurrection, followed by judgment.

Sounds reasonable. In which case, there's no activity, mental, physical, or spiritual, without the body. That simplifies the definition of death considerably, back to "returning to dust". I find it odd that Christians, when talking about death, almost always start by giving an alternate definition of the word that doesn't apply in any other situation, something like this: "Remember, 'death' means 'separation'."

I always find it comical whenever someone sees my argument and says to me, "That is not how the bible defines death."

To which I respond, "Dictionaries define words. The bible uses words." And the point is driven home further when one analyzes the meaning of the words translated "death", "destruction", "perish" etc. in the original languages.

But then, some people claim that when the bible mentions Jesus' "brothers", it really means "cousins", because it gores their ox regarding other beliefs. Technically, it "could" mean cousins, but there needs to be a valid reason to use the more "unused" meaning.

Another person said it this way: Imaging a book written in a language where the word, Xanzu could mean either elephant or key. And in one chapter he says, "...and he slipped the xanzu under the door...". So, was it a key or an elephant? If it is extremely important for your beliefs that it be an elephant, you'll probably say it was and come up with all sorts of "evidences" to support it being an elephant. Stuff like, "well, back in the day it was very popular to squish baby elephants very flat and use them as rugs. So in this case he was delivering an elephant." But I ain't buyin' it.

 

[didactics]

I always find it comical whenever someone sees my argument and says to me, "That is not how the bible defines death."

To which I respond, "Dictionaries define words. The bible uses words." And the point is driven home further when one analyzes the meaning of the words translated "death", "destruction", "perish" etc. in the original languages.

But then, some people claim that when the bible mentions Jesus' "brothers", it really means "cousins", because it gores their ox regarding other beliefs. Technically, it "could" mean cousins, but there needs to be a valid reason to use the more "unused" meaning.

Another person said it this way: Imaging a book written in a language where the word, Xanzu could mean either elephant or key. And in one chapter he says, "...and he slipped the xanzu under the door...". So, was it a key or an elephant? If it is extremely important for your beliefs that it be an elephant, you'll probably say it was and come up with all sorts of "evidences" to support it being an elephant. Stuff like, "well, back in the day it was very popular to squish baby elephants very flat and use them as rugs. So in this case he was delivering an elephant. But I ain't buyin' it.

Dumbo is not like other elephants he's got all sorts of tricks up his sleeve.

But on a more serious note, I think there is a concept of spiritual death. It has to do with the broken fellowship that Adam & Eve shared with God. So they were separate in distance as far as the relationship is concerned, but not in presence.

 

[Ephesians321]

You're not thinking big enough. When Christ was raised from the dead [flesh & blood] was he not also proved to be the man without sin [spiritual]? Now was he always without sin? of course. Was he always divine even when he was in the body? yes.

Now bear with now. Because you say that the first fruits of the resurrection of Christ is when he ascended to heaven. But what makes Jesus' resurrection unique compared to others in Bible history who were raised from the dead? It was at Christ's death on the cross that saints were raised from the dead (Mt 27:53). Some have suggested that these saints in particular were recently deceased and they ascended with Christ into heaven. If as you say what Adam and Eve lost in the garden is the opportunity to be assumed into heaven and skip death (just as Enoch and Elijah skipped death) and that's all the resurrection means, why aren't saints today skipping death and ascending to heaven?

Well never mind, your answer will probably be that it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment (Heb 9:27)

Let me put it this way. There must be a general judgment at the end of the world. It can't simply be that people live and die, live and die, and so on, and it happens that way forever and judgment only refers to be people being judged one at a time, each one after another when it's time to die. It must be that there will be a final judgment with the damned all sentenced at once and the saints together judged according to their works. Just as the kingdom of God is not just something that resides in our little hearts but is corporal- the bride, the church, the...dare I say the body (Eph 1:23).

Jesus was the most human there ever was for he was without sin. What he modeled for us is what it looks like to be human in the truest sense. His rising from the dead and being sinless, the head of the church, and taking responsibility for the sins he did not commit- so he maintains, not guilty. And so will his saints at the end of the world be raised a new body, without sin [flesh & blood], because the sentence has been taken off them they will be flesh & blood and spiritual, free from the restraints of such a pointless dichotomy (flesh & blood or spiritual?)!

Neither Enoch and Elijah ascended into heaven before Jesus did!!!

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. John 3:13.

Enoch was taken to Abraham's Bosom aka Hadean Paradise perhaps to spare him from the corruption and evil that eventually led to the flood.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. THESE ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:5,13

Elijah was simply carried far away by the Lord in fact under Elisha's prophetic ministry Elijah wrote King Johoram a letter, how did he manage to write a letter from heaven?

And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the Lord hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.
2 Kings 2:1,3,11-12,16

And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the Lord shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the Lord from my youth.
1 Kings 18:12

And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah, But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself: Behold, with a great plague will the Lord smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods: And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.
2 Chronicles 21:12-15