• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The church in Rome

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
49,415
17,800
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,033,179.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'll ask again: The Roman Catholic Church canonized 73 books - who canonized the 66 books accepted as Holy Scripture today? It wasn't the Roman Catholics - who was it, when and why?

Are you looking for the name of one particular Protestant Reformer? Are you thinking of Jerome, who observed the differences between the Septuagint and the books eventually seen as canon by the Jewish community?

What are you trying to get at?
Nothing hidden - no ulterior motive -

The rejection of the Apocrypha and the canonization of the 66 books in todays Bible was not through an individual. If you do not know - it is ok to say "I don't know".

This is the theology forum, I'm wondering if people know more than just Roman Catholic theology. Aren't you curious why the books were rejected as Scripture? Who it was that the decision that has lasted universally for how long? The whole of Christianity is more than the Roman Catholic Church. If you do not know why other Brothers and Sisters in Christ believe what they believe, are we not living in darkness?

Did you know that Peter in his entire life and almost two centuries afterwards was not addressed as, referred to, and did not have the title of pope? It was a title given posthumously. Doesn't that make you wonder why?

Listen if I am mistaken - quote any church patriarch from 50ad to 295 ad who referred to Peter with the title pope.
 
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
35,184
20,384
29
Nebraska
✟737,925.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
And was there a POPE during Christ ministry AND how were they succeeded with a verse in the bible would help me ?

And not interested on a so-called TRADITION !!

dan p
See Isaiah 22 and Matthew 16:18.

I do not accept Sola Scriptura, see 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

Pope simply means "Papa" or "Father"

RileyG
 
Upvote 0

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
5,130
6,105
New Jersey
✟403,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Nothing hidden - no ulterior motive -

The rejection of the Apocrypha and the canonization of the 66 books in todays Bible was not through an individual. If you do not know - it is ok to say "I don't know".

This is the theology forum, I'm wondering if people know more than just Roman Catholic theology. Aren't you curious why the books were rejected as Scripture? Who it was that the decision that has lasted universally for how long? The whole of Christianity is more than the Roman Catholic Church. If you do not know why other Brothers and Sisters in Christ believe what they believe, are we not living in darkness?

You know that I'm Episcopalian, right? (It's in my profile.) I am not Roman Catholic. When I study Catholic history and theology, I am in fact learning why other brothers and sisters in Christ believe what they believe.

The 66-book canon is not a "decision that has lasted universally". The list of 66 books is used only by Protestant Christians, and the list was drawn up in its current form about 500 years ago. This list is different from the one used by our Catholic and Orthodox colleagues.

To my knowledge, the choice to limit the canon to just 66 books was not a choice of a single person, but rather a collective decision made by members of Protestant communities in Europe in the 1500s. They were informed by the book choices that had been made by Rabbinic Judaism.

Broadly speaking, there are two very reasonable choices to make when selecting books to include in the Old Testament: 1) Use the books included in the Septuagint, which was the version in use at the time of Jesus. 2) Use the list of books that Rabbinic Judaism eventually decided on. Catholic and Orthodox Christians made one choice, and most Protestant churches made the other choice.

Did you know that Peter in his entire life and almost two centuries afterwards was not addressed as, referred to, and did not have the title of pope? It was a title given posthumously. Doesn't that make you wonder why?

Listen if I am mistaken - quote any church patriarch from 50ad to 295 ad who referred to Peter with the title pope.

The title isn't important to me, one way or the other. The specifics of church offices -- titles, duties, vestments, etc. -- developed over time. I think we'd all agree on that. More important to me is the exact level of authority held by the Bishop of Rome, and that is something about which I and my Catholic colleagues disagree.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
49,415
17,800
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,033,179.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You know that I'm Episcopalian, right? (It's in my profile.)
My apologies - I have never looked at your profile, only answered from what you posted.
I am not Roman Catholic. When I study Catholic history and theology, I am in fact learning why other brothers and sisters in Christ believe what they believe.
Same her - my father was a Seminarian in the Roman Catholic Church my uncles part of the Diocesan movement. When I started study in Theology I had a pretty good background in Catholic Beliefs. My studies lead me to another denomination.
The 66-book canon is not a "decision that has lasted universally". The list of 66 books is used only by Protestant Christians, and the list was drawn up in its current form about 500 years ago.
The Bibles with 66 books are from the inception to this day globally accepted (universally) They have not changed.

Really? When and by whom - that is what I have been repeatedly been asking - You state as fact it is only 500 years - link please?
This list is different from the one used by our Catholic and Orthodox colleagues.
True - the Apocryphal writings were found not Divinely inspired.
To my knowledge, the choice to limit the canon to just 66 books was not a choice of a single person, but rather a collective decision made by members of Protestant communities in Europe in the 1500s. They were informed by the book choices that had been made by Rabbinic Judaism.
Another attempt - link please - might I humbly ask you to back up your statement with facts please.
Broadly speaking, there are two very reasonable choices to make when selecting books to include in the Old Testament: 1) Use the books included in the Septuagint, which was the version in use at the time of Jesus. 2) Use the list of books that Rabbinic Judaism eventually decided on. Catholic and Orthodox Christians made one choice, and most Protestant churches made the other choice.
Again link please - how do you know that
The title isn't important to me, one way or the other. The specifics of church offices -- titles, duties, vestments, etc. -- developed over time. I think we'd all agree on that. More important to me is the exact level of authority held by the Bishop of Rome, and that is something about which I and my Catholic colleagues disagree.
There were Bishops (overseers) in 15 different regional churches mentioned in Scriptures.

I'm not trying to be contentious. I just want to know how you know what statements are accurate?
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,626
14,047
59
Sydney, Straya
✟1,410,477.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
35,184
20,384
29
Nebraska
✟737,925.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
It isn't universal.

Protestantism is in the minority on this. The majority of Christians accept a larger OT canon.
And Jesus would have used the Septuagint.
 
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
35,184
20,384
29
Nebraska
✟737,925.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
And that is the problem most Protestants have.
There are more than 30,000 different Protestant denominations. Their doctrines and dogmas develop over time, too.
 
Upvote 0

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,656
6,611
Nashville TN
✟764,719.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I've been waiting to see what answer you're expecting here
I'm curious as to where that's going also.
(I'm less familiar with the history of the canon in Orthodoxy; perhaps one of our Orthodox readers can fill in some details.)
This one is far easier.. as old Testament it's the LXX/Septuagint, from the beginning until now. No change.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
5,130
6,105
New Jersey
✟403,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Really? When and by whom - that is what I have been repeatedly been asking - You state as fact it is only 500 years - link please?

For easily linkable sources, we can start with Wikipedia:

For something a little more substantial, there's a pretty good essay titled "Introduction to the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical Books" on pp. 3-10 of the "Apocrypha" section of The New Oxford Annotated Bible - New Revised Standard Version with the Apocrypha, 3rd edition, Oxford University Press, 2001, ISBN 0-19-528478-X. According to this essay, while earlier translators had included the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books (either grouped with the Old Testament books or moved into their own separate section), the "Puritans took a stricter view and eventually published certain Geneva Bibles, printed in 1599 mainly in the Low Countries, that excluded the Apocrypha."

So, you wanted a name and a date. If I'm understanding the essay correctly, here's your name and date. Puritans who had moved to the Low Countries published the Geneva Bible in 1599, a version of the Bible which completely excluded the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist

JSRG

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,261
1,444
Midwest
✟228,179.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Really? When and by whom - that is what I have been repeatedly been asking - You state as fact it is only 500 years - link please?

True - the Apocryphal writings were found not Divinely inspired.

Another attempt - link please - might I humbly ask you to back up your statement with facts please.

Again link please - how do you know that

There were Bishops (overseers) in 15 different regional churches mentioned in Scriptures.

I'm not trying to be contentious. I just want to know how you know what statements are accurate?

In the above post, you demand multiple times that PloverWing offer links to back up his claims. However, you have been repeatedly challenged on a claim you made earlier:

Are you speaking of the Council of Nicea in 325AD? Your own reference in fact supports my position. FYI - the same council that removed the Apocryphal books. Just an interesting pont
Despite multiple requests for you to prove your claim that the Council of Nicaea "removed the Apocryphal books", you have (as far as I can tell) never offered anything at all. Do you think that, before demanding other people offer links, you should perhaps offer evidence of your own claim you have been challenged on?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: prodromos
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,468
8,142
50
The Wild West
✟752,872.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
It is true that Christianity reached the area around the Mediterranean before it reached other parts of the globe.

Actually that statement is misleading. St. Thomas the Apostle headed East and by 53 AD was martyred in India, but the Indian Church was clearly established by that point. In heading East, St. Thomas followed the Aramaic speaking trade routes from Edessa and Antioch through Syria and Mesopotamia, via Nineveh and Seleucia-Cstesiphon, all of which had fairly large numbers of Jews (and more would arrive after the failed Bar Kochba revolt in 130 AD), and wound up in Kerala, where the Jews had been present since Alexander the Great opened up the area to trade with Europe. Indeed, Kochin Jews as they are known lived in Kerala in large numbers until the formation of Israel, and they still own the Paradesi Synagogue, but usually lack a minyan. Their most famous recent member was Vidal Sassoon, of the prominent Sassoon family, which was the wealthiest of the Kochin Jewish families.

At any rate, the Christians in India can also trace their lineage back to that time; indeed a church built in the first century on the site of the martyrdom of St. Thomas is still there, although it was modified by the Portuguese Catholics after they conquered the area.

Likewise, the Syriac Orthodox and Assyrian Church of the East trace their membership in Iraq and Syria back to St. Thomas and his disciples Saints Addai and Mari.
 
Upvote 0

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
5,130
6,105
New Jersey
✟403,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
  • Useful
Reactions: The Liturgist

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
5,130
6,105
New Jersey
✟403,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Actually that statement is misleading. St. Thomas the Apostle headed East and by 53 AD was martyred in India, but the Indian Church was clearly established by that point.

That's fair. I'd forgotten the early church in India.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: The Liturgist

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,468
8,142
50
The Wild West
✟752,872.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Yup.

Nope.


Which canon of the Council of Nicea was that? I have the canons of the council in front of me.


I’m just wondering how you handle canon six from the Council of Nicea and canon three from the Council of Constantinople?

Indeed, the Council of Nicaea did not make any rulings on the contents of the canon. @hislegacy - with all due respect, you keep making statements about the Ecumenical Councils which are wildly inaccurate. I find this extremely frustrating, particularly given your status as a fellow clergyman, since it is my considered opinion that all clergy ought to have a proper understanding of the history of the early church, and with regards to what happened at each ecumenical council, this is not a point which is disputed between Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox, aside from certain hagiographic recollections, for example concerning an alleged miracle at Chalcedon, or the incident of St. Nicholas allegedly slapping Arius, which apparently Will Smith recently endeavored to re-enact, which are separate from the actual Acts and Canons published following these councils.

I would suggest the Cambridge History of Christianity, which is a scholarly treatment of the subject in nine volumes, or for something more concise albeit by an Eastern Orthodox author, however, one functioning in his role as a Professor at Oxford in writing it, The Orthodox Church, which does cover all seven as these are particularly important milestones for the Orthodox since more than most other churches our theology is primarily defined by the councils (the first three in the case of the Oriental Orthodox, and the first seven in the case of the Eastern Orthodox, with the later Roman Catholic Council of Florence looked down upon greatly by both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, since aside from seeking to unify us under the Pope it also included a detailed definition of the doctrine of Purgatory which the Orthodox reject. The Romans for their part refused to accept the “Quinisext Council” held in Trullo, which was intended to provide canons to accompany the Fifth and Sixth councils, but the canons it adopted were very specific to the Byzantine rite, for example, banning the celebration of the Eucharist with unleavened bread, and also banning depictions of our Lord as a lamb, both of which are popular in Western Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,468
8,142
50
The Wild West
✟752,872.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
That's fair. I'd forgotten the early church in India.

And also from the sound of it in Mesopotamia as well, since technically that region is not part of the Mediterranean or the Levant.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,468
8,142
50
The Wild West
✟752,872.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
From Iraneous

That’s a very … archaic spelling to say the least. If you want people to know who you are talking about, the preferred spelling is Irenaeus. And the usual pronunciations are those similar to Irene and Irrigation.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
23,626
14,047
59
Sydney, Straya
✟1,410,477.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
It has to be five and take. If you are ever open to that concept, we can re engage, until then it is a useless venture.
You haven't done any giving that I can see.
 
Upvote 0